Lots of sick kids

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Lots of sick kids

Post by DooooMeD » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:54 am

This just popped up on my radar b/c my son has Asthma. Apparently there is an outbreak of enterovirus EV-D68 that's showing up all over the country.
No political commentary intended, but with this happening not too long after there were a LOT of minor illegals crossing the border, it's makes me wonder if this minor outbreak could be a distribution test pattern.

I saw it first as a large amount of 'biohazard' avatars on the RSOE EDIS map, and it's still spreading.

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by JeeperCreeper » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:01 am

Can you post a link to where you saw this? I am not too up to date on this news story.

My local news (Pittsburgh) has been doing stories on a sickness that affects children but I don't even listen to them, thinking it is the new-hot-super-disease that always shows up at least once a year on TV when ratings get low. So I do not even know what they were reporting on. I just assumed it was a more northern/east coast/midwest sorta area issue... thinking that 10 kids got the flu in school or something, but I may be mistaken in my assumptions. I would be interesting to see if it began in the southern regions, and is completely different than what I originally thought.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:03 am

A few snippets:
Q: What is enterovirus D68?
A: Enterovirus D68 (EV-D68) is one of many non-polio enteroviruses. This virus was first identified in California in 1962, but it has not been commonly reported in the United States.

Q: How many people have been confirmed to have EV-68 infection?
A: From mid-August to September 12, 2014, a total of 97 people in six states were confirmed to have respiratory illness caused by EV-D68. A CDC laboratory confirmed these cases. Some state laboratories may have also confirmed cases, but these are not included in our total case count.
More at the link about how it's not specifically tracked and whatnot. There's a pretty big logical leap between "disease that w as first discovered in the US fifty years ago and isn't tracked particularly well infects 97 kids in the US across two states" to "biological attack dry run." Further, the first appearance in the Midwest would seem to mostly eliminate sources from Mexico, as there's a buttload of miles betweenthe Mexican border and Missouri. It seems odd that the first cases would show up a few thousand miles from the border states.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Boondock » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:08 am

It's on my radar, even though there's no cases I know of this far north in the Chicago area. My son happened to pick up a runny nose and a cough at pre-school, go figure, about the same time as the initial news reports on this.

I seriously doubt there's anything sinister at play with this illness. I'll be more concerned if the treatment fails to help patients recover, which doesn't seem to be the situation as of yet.

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Chicago Zombie » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:52 am

It seems to be in the Chicago area.

Loyola Medical Center restricts visitors amid virus outbreak:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html
The Maywood hospital says children younger than 18 and anyone with coldlike symptoms won't be allowed to visit patients. While adults are not immune to the virus, most people affected are children.
Emergency rooms in Chicago, Midwest see spike in children with respiratory virus:
...Like other hospitals in the region, Loyola has seen a spike in the number of patients with coldlike symptoms, according to a hospital spokeswoman. The symptoms are consistent with those caused by enterovirus D68, a rare virus that usually causes mild symptoms but can be serious in some cases.

Doctors at the hospital saw 41 cases of suspected EV-D68 during the week ended Saturday, up from 25 cases the previous week and 8 cases the week before that.

“It’s the main problem of our pediatric floor right now,” said Anne Dillon, a hospital spokeswoman.

Officials at Lurie Children’s Hospital and University of Chicago Comer Children’s hospital have also confirmed spikes in respiratory cases consistent with EV-D68....
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:59 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
A few snippets:
Q: What is enterovirus D68?
A: Enterovirus D68 (EV-D68) is one of many non-polio enteroviruses. This virus was first identified in California in 1962, but it has not been commonly reported in the United States.

Q: How many people have been confirmed to have EV-68 infection?
A: From mid-August to September 12, 2014, a total of 97 people in six states were confirmed to have respiratory illness caused by EV-D68. A CDC laboratory confirmed these cases. Some state laboratories may have also confirmed cases, but these are not included in our total case count.
More at the link about how it's not specifically tracked and whatnot. There's a pretty big logical leap between "disease that w as first discovered in the US fifty years ago and isn't tracked particularly well infects 97 kids in the US across two states" to "biological attack dry run." Further, the first appearance in the Midwest would seem to mostly eliminate sources from Mexico, as there's a buttload of miles betweenthe Mexican border and Missouri. It seems odd that the first cases would show up a few thousand miles from the border states.
There you go again, throwing the wet blanket of science and logic over perfectly good round of paranoia and xenophobia.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Boondock » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:01 am

Chicago Zombie wrote:It seems to be in the Chicago area.
Figured it was gonna happen eventually. Thanks for the update.

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by jor-el » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:43 am

Curious how well the outbreaks correspond to the 100000 or so children that crossed the border and were redistributed nationwide by ICE.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by DooooMeD » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:55 am

http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/index ... -45173-USA (clicking on 'alert map' takes you back to the graphic of N. America, which shows the areas effected.)

and, if you click on the "situation updates" you get a timeline of where and when it's appeared. http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/index ... -45173-USA

Also, Denver seems to be one of several destination cities for illegal immigrants from the southern border, and that is where the first reports are from. Granted, it is not a "super-bug", and the most effected are those with preexisting respiratory issues like Asthma.

It may be coincidental, but for me, little flags start popping up when an admittedly uncommon virus (cited as "rare") suddenly makes blips all over the radar and has effected ~1500 kids across 14 states. (see first link, the summary page, # of infected listed at the bottom).

Please, call me paranoid......I'm quite happy to be wrong about this stuff.

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by DooooMeD » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:56 am

jor-el wrote:Curious how well the outbreaks correspond to the 100000 or so children that crossed the border and were redistributed nationwide by ICE.
exactly.

ETA: http://dailycaller.com/2014/09/10/feds- ... reening/2/
(just one of multiple links resultant from a search)

snippet: In a July 30 memo to Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, the Department of Homeland Security’s Inspector General, John Roth, warned that many of the illegal immigrants who have recently arrived from Central America “require treatment for communicable diseases, including respiratory illnesses, tuberculosis, chicken pox and scabies.” Some illegal immigrants transmitted some of those diseases to Border Patrol agents at a Del Rio, Texas holding facility.

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Sep 14, 2014 1:50 pm

jor-el wrote:Curious how well the outbreaks correspond to the 100000 or so children that crossed the border and were redistributed nationwide by ICE.
Meaninglessly unless a causal correlation can be demonstrated by scientific means.
DooooMeD wrote:http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/index ... -45173-USA (clicking on 'alert map' takes you back to the graphic of N. America, which shows the areas effected.)

and, if you click on the "situation updates" you get a timeline of where and when it's appeared. http://hisz.rsoe.hu/alertmap/site/index ... -45173-USA
An unsourced "report." Please, tell me more about why the Hungarian National Association of Radio Distress Signaling and Infocommunications is a more reliable source than the CDC.


Then you link the Daily Caller blatantly political "news" site pushing a politically motivated story. You should peel at this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=108214
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:25 pm

The problem is three-fold.

-Infrastructure of the countries that the illegal aliens are coming from.
-Cultural differences based on the sewage system and lack of healthcare.
-Government relocating these children wherever with little medical screening.

First problem, the sewage system and local infrastructure :
In Latin America the sewage system won't support the flushing of toilet paper. That means that every time you use a public restroom down there or some places in the American Southwest you are going to find the little bucket or trashcan sitting right next to the toilet filled full of urine and feces covered toilet paper. In some areas sewage flows right down the middle of the street. That's just the way it is there. This gets into drinking water, attracts flies and other insects and leaves contaminated bodily fluids out everywhere which in turn spread disease (especially if they have Hepatitis). Someone who can barely afford clothes and food isn't going to worry much about handwashing with Dial regularly regardless of whether they're picking lettuce, chopping lettuce in a restaurant, or working in a factory nonfood capacity job.

One could just call someone who points this out xenophobic or some other senseless bullshit when it's just merely the truth, but mostly in my mind they just don't dig on inconvenient facts.

The toilet paper filled trash can and bucket is a local solution to a sewage problem since the toilet paper won't properly flush. It's not really the fault of the local people, they're just dealing with it, but it's still a problem as many of these people are infected with a variety of diseases.

Second problem, the healthcare system in the countries most of these people are coming from.
Most countries in Latin America fit squarely within the third world. Countries in the Third World almost all have really horrible healthcare systems. People are just too poor to afford it and while sometimes the government provides free healthcare it's not the same thing as in North America. So they often go without. If they have lice, scabies or TB then often times they're are just fucked.

Third problem :
These children who were caught by the Border Patrol in this crisis are being spread out all over the US. Here's a sheet as of August.

Feds Release 7,173 More Illegals In Three Weeks

So if you think you're safe in some small town in Alabama you're wrong. Also you have to remember that it's not just the government spreading them out all over the country, they're making it over on their own as well.

So think what you want, but it's been common knowledge among healthcare workers for decades that illegal immigrants and people coming out of prisons and other crowded and disadvantaged circumstances that have received inadequate healthcare are often going to suffer from disease at a higher rate. That's exactly why everybody's donning PPE when they have those people as patients.
Last edited by Browning 35 on Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:39 pm

Browning 35 wrote:The problem is three-fold.
Would you care to demonstrate the direct causal or contributing link between immigrants and the original topic of EV-D68?
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by TacAir » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:43 pm

Well, CNN reports:
Virus hitting the U.S. could be 'tip of iceberg,' CDC official says

A respiratory virus is sending hundreds of children to hospitals throughout the Midwest and beyond, health officials say.

The unusually high number of hospitalizations reported could be "just the tip of the iceberg in terms of severe cases," said Mark Pallansch, a virologist and director of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Division of Viral Diseases.

Twelve states have contacted the CDC for assistance in investigating clusters of enterovirus: Alabama, Colorado, Michigan, Georgia, Ohio, Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Kansas, Oklahoma, Kentucky and Utah. Four -- Colorado, Illinois, Missouri and Iowa -- have confirmed cases of Enterovirus D68, also known as EV-D68.

AND

The rapid explosion of mystery virus EV-D68 is sending hundreds of children to hospitals across Missouri, Colorado, Kansas, Utah and eight other states. "In Kansas City, about 475 children were recently treated at Children’s Mercy Hospital, and at least 60 of them received intensive hospitalization," reports CNN.

So, in one city, 475 treated in hospital, 60 in the ICU.

That's a tad more than "97 people in six States" CDC not withstanding. The CDC tends to be a little behind the curve on some things.

AND
"It’s worse in terms of scope of critically ill children who require intensive care. I would call it unprecedented. I’ve practiced for 30 years in pediatrics, and I’ve never seen anything quite like this," said Dr. Mary Anne Jackson, the hospital’s division director for infectious diseases.

What CNN and other media outlets are not reporting, however, is that this outbreak is occurring among vaccinated children. CNN is not exactly a Hungarian site...but lately, not much better.

For a map of known relocated CA kinder see:
https://www.numbersusa.com/news/not-my- ... ens-border

I should warn readers the map site is not exactly welcoming of cross-border travelers, but does list the sites where known mass congregations are currently - mostly owing to FedGov facilities. It doesn't list the destinations of the kinder released to go live with 'relatives'.

So, it seems odd that KC has such a massive influx of sick children and no known (or documented) correlation with the influx of recent CA migrants.

If the disease is caused by the border hoppers, then it would seem logical that other diseases like, say, measles would also follow along...

(From The Columbus Dispatch • Thursday September 4, 2014 8:50 AM )
Meanwhile, the state Health Department is expected to announce that Ohio’s measles outbreak is officially over. As of yesterday, no new cases of measles had been reported in Ohio since July 23. The state had said it would consider the outbreak officially over when two incubation periods, or 42 consecutive days, had passed.

In all, 377 cases were reported in Ashland, Coshocton, Crawford, Highland, Holmes, Knox, Richland, Stark and Wayne counties. The outbreak started in April.

Measles cases are at a 20-year high in the United States, driven largely by the outbreak among unvaccinated Amish populations in Ohio. Oops, that doesn't fit the meme.

So, Endo 68 cases up. Source, not determined at least that I could find.

Finding data from reputable news sources is difficult. Finding opinion OTOH, not so hard....

ETA - when I saw this thread start, I figured it would only be a matter of time before this pit (speculation on CA migrants = disease vector) came along to fall into.

Better to ensure your family has all immunizations up to date and stay alert for unusual symptoms in that same family. YMMV.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:18 pm

TacAir wrote:..........
So, it seems odd that KC has such a massive influx of sick children and no known (or documented) correlation with the influx of recent CA migrants.....

Better to ensure your family has all immunizations up to date and stay alert for unusual symptoms in that same family. YMMV.
A little medical history, modern medical researchers believe that the Spanish flu started in Kansas near Ft.Riley.

My county has taken in more than 1000 of these pint sized illegal aliens, more than any other county in the DC area, and we have had a whopping zero cases as of 10 September.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by manowar1313 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:00 pm

DooooMeD wrote: No political commentary intended, but with this happening not too long after there were a LOT of minor illegals crossing the border, it's makes me wonder if this minor outbreak could be a distribution test pattern.
You know what could also be causing this? Kids are back in school and have more contact with each other. Since this time of year has an increase in ALL communicable diseases I'm just going to say, yea that's probably it.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Old_Man » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:27 pm

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6038a1.htm

HEV68 was first recorded in 1962 in California, and has since popped up all over the world, just not in very large clusters. I would be more worried about why US kids are becoming more susceptible (since it seems most are little effected unless respiratory system is already compromised) than some theory that border kids brought it across. More likely it has been wandering quietly around the US, not causing much problem until now.

As a side note... It doesn't seem to have occurred in the border kids countries of origin...

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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by duodecima » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:05 pm

TacAir wrote: What CNN and other media outlets are not reporting, however, is that this outbreak is occurring among vaccinated children. CNN is not exactly a Hungarian site...but lately, not much better.
I'm not at all sure why anyone's bringing up vaccination here. There IS no vaccination for EV-D68. While vaccinations are of immense value against their specific diseases, they have no particular use against every other different virus/bacteria that's out there. I wager it's not part of the reporting because it's actually totally irrelevant to the EV-D68 outbreak.

Were you referring to the measles outbreak instead? Because that's a different vaccination issue altogether...

Having said that, if your goal is to take all reasonable steps to protect your children and family from illness, then absolutely make sure your vaccinations are up to date! (Pretty please!)
Browning 35 wrote:That's exactly why everybody's donning PPE when they have those people as patients.
Anybody who's using different PPE for illegal immigrants than they use for Joe Schmoe who's lived across the street for 40 years is doing it wrong. Universal precautions means not to make stupid assumptions that certain types of people don't pose a real risk because [insert bias of your choice here]. The idea that you could tell who might have HIV by looking lead not only to a lot of shitty unethical behavior by health care workers, back in the day, but also to the deaths from AIDS of health care workers because assumptions really can get you killed. The few pics I've seen involving health care and the large groups of illegal immigrant children don't show PPE different than what the nurses at my local flu shot clinic use every year. Happy to look at other pics if someone's got them.

Legal travel is a far bigger issue in our modern world than migration, legal or otherwise. Talked to two perfectly legal US citizens on Thursday, both of whom chose to fly while ill in 2009 because their job interview in London and professional conference in Atlanta were too important to miss. Both turned out to have H1N1, so there's a couple planeloads of folks exposed to the epidemic du jour, which is more folks than your average kid living with family members sees, except maybe at school.

Travel's a public health issue. Poverty's a public health issue, both here and abroad. Hi-density communal housing is a public health issue (do not get me started on sorority and fraternity houses!) But, to put it in perspective? Your local neighbors who can't afford to see a doctor, or who choose not to vaccinate, or send their kid to daycare sick because they can't afford to miss work, or who don't wash their hands after going to the rest room, are a much bigger threat to your health than some kid who just moved in with their aunt.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:02 pm

duodecima wrote:.... Hi-density communal housing is a public health issue (do not get me started on sorority and fraternity houses!)
Aw - could you please PM me some salacious tales about the transmission of STDs among bed hopping college students?
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Sep 14, 2014 11:03 pm

duodecima wrote:Anybody who's using different PPE for illegal immigrants than they use for Joe Schmoe who's lived across the street for 40 years is doing it wrong. Universal precautions means not to make stupid assumptions that certain types of people don't pose a real risk because [insert bias of your choice here]. The idea that you could tell who might have HIV by looking lead not only to a lot of shitty unethical behavior by health care workers, back in the day, but also to the deaths from AIDS of health care workers because assumptions really can get you killed. The few pics I've seen involving health care and the large groups of illegal immigrant children don't show PPE different than what the nurses at my local flu shot clinic use every year. Happy to look at other pics if someone's got them.
Not exactly what I was saying.

I don't think that the lady living in the $1million dollar house is immune from communicable diseases and that the guy who just got here from Guatemala and who is living under a bridge in South Dallas automatically has some sort of funk going on. I also don't have a Star Trek tricorder in my head and I can't tell who's sick and with what. However which of the two is more able to afford healthcare and is more likely to go to the doctor regularly, be able to afford medications, eat healthy and maintain good hygiene standards?

Has nothing to do with bias and more about the lack of medical care in other countries and with at risk populations (homeless, drug abusers and prisoners) here in the US.

I also don't have the luxury of being handed a chart and told that the patient probably has TB after they're already masked.

If I see a reason to don PPE with anyone I'm going to do so immediately, if that person is from an at risk category I'm going to start thinking about doing it earlier though.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by jnathan » Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:53 pm

Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity. In a thread discussing the spread of a respiratory virus spread by any mechanism that comes in contact with respiratory secretions (coughing, sneezing and saliva), you saw fit to try to draw a parallel to poor people of foreign countries and their poor hygiene. This is a virus with relatively low surveillance and tests to specifically detect it are not available to many medical facilities within and outside the USA. It affects the young in part because of less developed immune systems and because younger people often have poorer hygiene (kids put their hands in their mouths, for example). The recent outbreak, as reported by the CDC as recently as 9/12/2014, has only been found in the Midwest, not border states. So mentions of illegal immigrants starts looking like a straw man argument. As are mentions of sanitation and hygiene in the third world since the virus is spread human-to-human through respiratory secretions and not feces.

It affects people regardless of station, wealth, race, creed or country of origin. Business travelers frequenting areas of infection make equally capable carriers as illegal immigrants.

No, what we're dealing with once again was some thinly veiled racism by you. You've been warned for racist behavior and you've been called out as a member of Stormfront (a white supremacist/white power website). Ultimately, this is why you were banned by the board.

Now let's get back to meaningful conversations about EV-D68. :)

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Not exactly what I was saying.

I don't think that the lady living in the $1million dollar house is immune from communicable diseases and that the guy who just got here from Guatemala and who is living under a bridge in South Dallas automatically has some sort of funk going on. I also don't have a Star Trek tricorder in my head and I can't tell who's sick and with what. However which of the two is more able to afford healthcare and is more likely to go to the doctor regularly, be able to afford medications, eat healthy and maintain good hygiene standards?

Has nothing to do with bias and more about the lack of medical care in other countries and with at risk populations (homeless, drug abusers and prisoners) here in the US.

I also don't have the luxury of being handed a chart and told that the patient probably has TB after they're already masked.

If I see a reason to don PPE with anyone I'm going to do so immediately, if that person is from an at risk category I'm going to start thinking about doing it earlier though.
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Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:08 pm

jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
:rofl: :rofl: ... seriously? That's the excuse?

You guys really do make me laugh some time. I need to add that quote to my sig!
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jnathan
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Meat Popsicle
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Joined: Mon May 05, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Illinois, USA

Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by jnathan » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:17 pm

I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus. But I will say "The admin team apologizes for a hiccup this morning. Despite our combined 65+ years in industry from just 4 people, we do make mistakes. Our bad!"

Edited to add: We lost several hours of posts and one asshole user. Sorry for the lost posts, we know to be more careful and we'll try not to do that again.

-Jeff
My name is Jeff, not Jonathan. Jonathan would fit...

ZSC:020 Chicagoland | How to search ZS | GHB

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NamelessStain
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Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:08 am
Location: Coastal SC

Re: Lots of sick kids

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:23 pm

jnathan wrote:I'm not going to throw anyone under the bus. But I will say "The admin team apologizes for a hiccup this morning. Despite our combined 65+ years in industry from just 4 people, we do make mistakes. Our bad!"
Please don't do that, speaking down to me like I'm some inferior non-geek. I've been in the IT world since 94, that's 20 years.

Have a nice day.
jnathan wrote:Since we lost some posts due to some database work I'll just put this here for posterity.
Q wrote:Buckle up

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