Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:34 pm

Fox is now reporting the same story about the cop being severely injured. It's still pretty vague about the source though.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/mi ... ys-source/
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Wed Aug 20, 2014 5:37 pm

RepoMan73 wrote:Fox is now reporting the same story about the cop being severely injured. It's still pretty vague about the source though.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/mi ... ys-source/
That's actually the same article mentioned in the past two posts.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by McSquishin » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:04 pm

RepoMan73 wrote:Fox is now reporting the same story about the cop being severely injured. It's still pretty vague about the source though.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/08/20/mi ... ys-source/
If true it would certainly be an important puzzle piece falling into place. If I was an officer beaten to the extent that I received that type of injury by a man the size of the deceased I'd be afraid for my life and act accordingly if bull rushed.

Put simply, this (unconfirmed) revelation has the ring of truth to it IMO.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:05 pm

ah my apologies. I thought everyone was talking about that story from the conservative blog site that came out yesterday and that the Fox story was new.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:08 pm

The latest grips now is that the prosecutor won't do a good job because his family is in law enforcement and his dad was killed while on a call by.... you guessed it... a black man.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/background- ... s-of-bias/
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RepoMan73 » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:27 pm

Stercutus wrote:The latest grips now is that the prosecutor won't do a good job because his family is in law enforcement and his dad was killed while on a call by.... you guessed it... a black man.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/background- ... s-of-bias/
From 1964...
Looks to me like people anticipate the no bill and are getting ready for the next fresh round of outrage.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by spanningtree » Wed Aug 20, 2014 6:28 pm

Yup, there will likely be a lot of hyperbole defining exactly what crime occurred here and who the actual victim was.

Hats off to Crypto on his coverage efforts.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Wed Aug 20, 2014 7:45 pm

Once again, I'd like to request people move discussion of root causes to another non-DICE thread, but when you do, please include a link to this video in it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -P54MZVxMU


This is cell phone video of yesterdays non-ferguson-related officer-involved shooting in STL City. I mention it for the following reasons:

* It looks like a 100% justified shoot to me.
* The video quality is outstanding in that you can clearly see the whole confrontation as well as hear everyones voice clearly.
* I hope that this will stop being something that inflames the protestors in Ferguson and stops being an issue.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by sheddi » Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:23 am

crypto wrote:Once again, I'd like to request people move discussion of root causes to another non-DICE thread, but when you do, please include a link to this video in it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -P54MZVxMU

This is cell phone video of yesterdays non-ferguson-related officer-involved shooting in STL City.
That looks to be a good record of the event and I suggest that if you're interested in the situation you download the clip using one of the available YouTube downloaders since I can't see it staying up on YouTube for very long. (I'm saying that based on previous YouTube take-downs of videos of shootings.)
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Thu Aug 21, 2014 6:45 am

I dunno, KWMU is a large NPR affiliate in the area, and a serious news organization. We'll see I guess.

At any rate, last night was peaceful again. Many protestors earlier in the day, AG Holder was in town and up in Ferguson, and Secret Service did their thing, and nothing bad happened.

Many members of the clergy serving as peacekeepers are trying to use soft hands on the protestors to keep LEOs from having to get involved, and that seems to be working. For the last 2 nights in a row, at least.

I am sincerely hoping this might be a turning point in the nature of the protests.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:03 am

crypto wrote:
Nick Adams wrote:How do these protesters get a permit to march and protest? Anyone that ever organized a protest march or demonstration knows how hard it can be to get a permit
I have been threatened with arrest because I didn't have a permit to protest and told I couldn't hold up a 10X12 inch piece of paper while standing on the pavement because I didn't have a permit. Did the city give out permits to allow these protesters to march and demostrate?

There is no permit, to my knowledge, or at least there wasn't last week. Thousands of people people appeared to show their displeasure, and if the cops started dispersing them simply because they had no permit, it would have severely inflamed the underlying situation. They get to protest as long as they do so peaceably. When it stops being peaceful, the order to disperse comes.

Is Interesting that it appears a permit IS needed to have a march and protest at least for some people...unless the police think your group will get upset and cause trouble if made to go through the procedure to get a permit so in that case they don't need one and don't have to follow the law.
Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm

I was at a demonstration once and the police told me I would be arrested [ and they meant it!] if I didn't give them a small sheet of paper I was holding because I didn't have a permit to demonstrate. I was finally allowed to keep my paper but had to fold it up and put in my coat, police told me if they saw it again I would be arrested on the spot. I wasn't burning down gas stations or anything like that but just standing on the sidewalk and not even making any noise...maybe that was the problem?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:18 am

Nick Adams wrote:
crypto wrote:
Nick Adams wrote:How do these protesters get a permit to march and protest? Anyone that ever organized a protest march or demonstration knows how hard it can be to get a permit
I have been threatened with arrest because I didn't have a permit to protest and told I couldn't hold up a 10X12 inch piece of paper while standing on the pavement because I didn't have a permit. Did the city give out permits to allow these protesters to march and demostrate?

There is no permit, to my knowledge, or at least there wasn't last week. Thousands of people people appeared to show their displeasure, and if the cops started dispersing them simply because they had no permit, it would have severely inflamed the underlying situation. They get to protest as long as they do so peaceably. When it stops being peaceful, the order to disperse comes.

Is Interesting that it appears a permit IS needed to have a march and protest at least for some people...unless the police think your group will get upset and cause trouble if made to go through the procedure to get a permit so in that case they don't need one and don't have to follow the law.
Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm

I was at a demonstration once and the police told me I would be arrested [ and they meant it!] if I didn't give them a small sheet of paper I was holding because I didn't have a permit to demonstrate. I was finally allowed to keep my paper but had to fold it up and put in my coat, police told me if they saw it again I would be arrested on the spot. I wasn't burning down gas stations or anything like that but just standing on the sidewalk and not even making any noise...maybe that was the problem?
Impossible to say. Laws vary widely by jurisdiction on protests and demonstrations and change all the time. As usual the police and those in charge of the police pick and choose which laws they are going to enforce despite whatever is on the books. Sometimes it is not worth the effort to try to enforce a particular ordinance especially if they are trying not to incite people more. Americans used to be notorious for civil disobedience and can get riled up sometimes.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:42 am

Nick Adams wrote: Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm
That would be the municipal police chief, followed by the county police chief, followed by the governor, in that order.

BTW, are you looking in the right place? you want the City of Ferguson, not St. Louis.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DJH » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:48 am

crypto wrote:Once again, I'd like to request people move discussion of root causes to another non-DICE thread, but when you do, please include a link to this video in it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -P54MZVxMU


This is cell phone video of yesterdays non-ferguson-related officer-involved shooting in STL City. I mention it for the following reasons:

* It looks like a 100% justified shoot to me.
* The video quality is outstanding in that you can clearly see the whole confrontation as well as hear everyones voice clearly.
* I hope that this will stop being something that inflames the protestors in Ferguson and stops being an issue.
Unfortunately I can see this adding further fuel to the flames. I've got some friends in social media already crying foul and complaining that the officers didn't have to shoot, could have used other options, etc. And some of these friends are ones I normally consider level headed, so if they think so, I can only imagine how those already prone to distrust & second guessing LEO actions will interpret it.

Glad to hear that things seem to have peaked and are now leveling off though. I hope life can go back to normal there soon.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by EAFHR » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:51 am

Nick Adams wrote: Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm
Nick, Ferguson is not part of the City of Saint Louis, it's part of Saint Louis County. So the city web site isn't relevant.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by NamelessStain » Thu Aug 21, 2014 7:58 am

crypto wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm
That would be the municipal police chief, followed by the county police chief, followed by the governor, in that order.

BTW, are you looking in the right place? you want the City of Ferguson, not St. Louis.
Where does the Sheriff come in that pecking order?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by EAFHR » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:05 am

DJH wrote:
crypto wrote:Once again, I'd like to request people move discussion of root causes to another non-DICE thread, but when you do, please include a link to this video in it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -P54MZVxMU


This is cell phone video of yesterdays non-ferguson-related officer-involved shooting in STL City. I mention it for the following reasons:

* It looks like a 100% justified shoot to me.
* The video quality is outstanding in that you can clearly see the whole confrontation as well as hear everyones voice clearly.
* I hope that this will stop being something that inflames the protestors in Ferguson and stops being an issue.
Unfortunately I can see this adding further fuel to the flames. I've got some friends in social media already crying foul and complaining that the officers didn't have to shoot, could have used other options, etc. And some of these friends are ones I normally consider level headed, so if they think so, I can only imagine how those already prone to distrust & second guessing LEO actions will interpret it.

Glad to hear that things seem to have peaked and are now leveling off though. I hope life can go back to normal there soon.
The City is being extremely forthcoming about this incident, has released videos and 911 calls, and talked with local people including the family - though they're not willing to release the officers' names (good choice). I hope they have succeeded in defusing anger. More information: http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crim ... 81bab.html

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Thu Aug 21, 2014 8:41 am

NamelessStain wrote:
crypto wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm
That would be the municipal police chief, followed by the county police chief, followed by the governor, in that order.

BTW, are you looking in the right place? you want the City of Ferguson, not St. Louis.
Where does the Sheriff come in that pecking order?
He doesnt. The county sheriff's office is only used for process service and courtroom bailiff duties for St. Louis County, ditto for the city Sheriff (the County of St. Louis City, is its own county). Both are small-potatoes offices with little functional capacity and fewer officers. Both counties have Chiefs of Police for metro/regional law enforcement command.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by KGBrick » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:09 am

ACLU on the subject of permits:

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-y ... d-protests
Not usually. However, certain types of events require permits. For example:

A march or parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require blocking traffic or street closure;
A large rally requiring the use of sound amplifying devices; or
A rally at certain designated parks or plazas.

Many permit procedures require that the application be filed several weeks in advance of the event. However, the First Amendment prohibits such an advance notice requirement from being used to prevent protests in response to recent news events. Also, many permit ordinances give too much discretion to the police or city officials to impose conditions on the event, such as the route of a march or the sound levels of amplification equipment. Such restrictions may violate the First Amendment if they are unnecessary for traffic control or public safety, or if they interfere significantly with effective communication to the intended audience. A permit cannot be denied because the event is controversial or will express unpopular views.

If organizers have not obtained a permit, where can a march take place?

If marchers stay on the sidewalks and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is constitutionally protected even without a permit. Marchers may be required to allow enough space on the sidewalk for normal pedestrian traffic and may not maliciously obstruct or detain passers-by.

May I distribute leaflets and other literature on public sidewalks without a permit?

Yes. You may approach pedestrians on public sidewalks with leaflets, newspapers, petitions, and solicitations for donations without a permit. These types of free speech activities are legal as long as entrances to buildings are not blocked and passers-by are not physically and maliciously detained. However, a permit may be required to set up tables or other physical structures.

Do I have a right to picket on public sidewalks?

Yes, and this is also an activity for which a permit is not required. However, picketing must be done in an orderly, non-disruptive fashion so that pedestrians can pass by and entrances to buildings are not blocked.
The protests in Ferguson now seem to be legal... or at least in the area where the ACLU's on your side. Couldn't find any .gov page on the same in my quick search.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Thu Aug 21, 2014 9:56 am

KGBrick wrote:ACLU on the subject of permits:

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-y ... d-protests
Not usually. However, certain types of events require permits. For example:

A march or parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require blocking traffic or street closure;
A large rally requiring the use of sound amplifying devices; or
A rally at certain designated parks or plazas.



If organizers have not obtained a permit, where can a march take place?

If marchers stay on the sidewalks and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is constitutionally protected even without a permit. .
The protests in Ferguson now seem to be legal... or at least in the area where the ACLU's on your side. Couldn't find any .gov page on the same in my quick search.
Going by the photos I saw , both the cropped one the media used and the un cropped one that showed him with the Blood Gang Members , I'm pretty sure the march that highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson was in was in the middle of a street and NOT on a sidewalk, the big double yellow line running down the middle of where they were marching sort of made me think they were in a street and not on the sidewalk. If so and if they didn't get a permit sounds like it would be illegal.
Pretty sure I have seen photos of other demonstrations in the street too and not just on the sidewalk.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by the_alias » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:00 am

Nick Adams wrote:
KGBrick wrote:ACLU on the subject of permits:

https://www.aclu.org/free-speech/know-y ... d-protests
Not usually. However, certain types of events require permits. For example:

A march or parade that does not stay on the sidewalk, and other events that require blocking traffic or street closure;
A large rally requiring the use of sound amplifying devices; or
A rally at certain designated parks or plazas.



If organizers have not obtained a permit, where can a march take place?

If marchers stay on the sidewalks and obey traffic and pedestrian signals, their activity is constitutionally protected even without a permit. .
The protests in Ferguson now seem to be legal... or at least in the area where the ACLU's on your side. Couldn't find any .gov page on the same in my quick search.
Going by the photos I saw , both the cropped one the media used and the un cropped one that showed him with the Blood Gang Members , I'm pretty sure the march that highway Patrol Captain Ron Johnson was in was in the middle of a street and NOT on a sidewalk, the big double yellow line running down the middle of where they were marching sort of made me think they were in a street and not on the sidewalk. If so and if they didn't get a permit sounds like it would be illegal.
Pretty sure I have seen photos of other demonstrations in the street too and not just on the sidewalk.
I suggest you use common sense and work out why they aren't running around checking people for a permit.

Let it go now.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Langenator » Thu Aug 21, 2014 10:12 am

crypto wrote:
NamelessStain wrote:
crypto wrote:
Nick Adams wrote: Wonder if there is a single person or a group that determines who actually has to follow the law and who doesn't because they might get upset and cause trouble?
Kind of funny but I looked up how to get a permit to have a demonstration in St. Louis and seems that the page has been taken down where the city explains It...Hmmm
That would be the municipal police chief, followed by the county police chief, followed by the governor, in that order.

BTW, are you looking in the right place? you want the City of Ferguson, not St. Louis.
Where does the Sheriff come in that pecking order?
He doesnt. The county sheriff's office is only used for process service and courtroom bailiff duties for St. Louis County, ditto for the city Sheriff (the County of St. Louis City, is its own county). Both are small-potatoes offices with little functional capacity and fewer officers. Both counties have Chiefs of Police for metro/regional law enforcement command.
By that description, in MO, or at least those two counties in MO, the position/function of the sheriff is analagous to the Constable in Texas counties - they work for the court(s), while the TX county sheriff is a law enforcement office like the county police in MO.

In TX, both constables and sheriffs are elected; is this also true for sheriffs and county police chiefs in MO? Or are one or both appointed?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by crypto » Thu Aug 21, 2014 11:47 am

Nick Adams wrote:and the un cropped one that showed him with the Blood Gang Members ,
You mean this one?

Image

Or this one?

Image

Just so you know, thats a Kappa Alpha Psi sign. His university fraternity.

YOU ARE A GROWN-ASS MAN I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO YOU THAT NOT ALL BLACK MEN ARE IN GANGS.

EDIT: NOT A GANG SIGN:
Image

NOT A GANG SIGN:
Image

NOT A GANG SIGN:
Image


ALSO NOT A GANG SIGN:
Image


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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Boondock » Thu Aug 21, 2014 12:50 pm

crypto wrote:ALSO NOT A GANG SIGN:
Image
Indeed. That would be the international sorority symbol for: Who's gonna party with Boondock!

Sorry. Thought I'd try to inject a bit of humor into this thread. Couldn't resist. :D

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