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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:28 pm
by KGBrick
Like the live reddit feed I'm paying attention to (http://www.reddit.com/live/tdrph3y49ftn/), I feel it is important to post information from the "other side" of this situation. Namely, a blog post supposedly by a St Louis County LEO who was involved in the whole mess.

http://dissonantwinstonsmith.wordpress.com/

A lot of vented spleen (not unreasonable) and some scapegoating (distasteful), but it doesn't really address the initial overreaction of the police in showing up dressed for a gang war/hostage crisis/armed bank robbery.




Edit: too much to quote imo. Tried spoiler tags but didn't work. Just go check out the blog if you're interested.

Edit2: On what crypto said above, this whole situation has made me think about where I draw the line in my mind between protest and riot. In this situation, I would have to start "riot" at the curfew and/or when protesters don't separate themselves from the gentle souls that are setting things on fire, throwing stuff, shooting, looting, etc. If the curfew had been imposed without law-breaking on the part of involved parties, I would consider people violating the curfew to still be protesters, not rioters.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 12:55 pm
by crypto
Here's a video of the cops threatening to shoot a reporter:




I can see why the cop didn't want to be backlit at night in an environment where bullets are flying, but the incident did in fact happen.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:02 pm
by KGBrick
That's a much better clip of the video than anything I saw earlier. Like you say, I can empathize with not wanting to be backlit, but that kind of threat should not be treated lightly.

How long would I be a free man if I made a threat like that against another civilian? Five minutes? I'm pretty close to my city PD HQ. Might only have two or three minutes.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:06 pm
by Browning 35
Michael Brown had marijuana in his system.

http://www.examiner.com/article/report- ... his-system

What'd I tell you about those Swisher Sweets? :wink:

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:08 pm
by NamelessStain
crypto wrote:Here's a video of the cops threatening to shoot a reporter:

[YouTube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... lOuMQ-apd0[/YouTube]


I can see why the cop didn't want to be backlit at night in an environment where bullets are flying, but the incident did in fact happen.
Reminds me of the SEALs coming ashore in Somalia.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:09 pm
by raptor
crypto wrote:regarding the autopsy report, it cuts both ways: It shows pretty clearly that Brown was not shot in the back as per some eyewitness accounts, but it also shows no evidence of any sort of struggle or fight.

Honestly I think the key takeaway in the autopsy report is the word preliminary. :D

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:23 pm
by Kilo147
Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:27 pm
by Blacksheep
Kilo147 wrote:Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.
given the situation.. I would probably be a bit quicker to label sounds as gunshots, than I usually would
there have also been protesters Rioters who have publicly said they have guns...

I personally would cut them slack on this

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:38 pm
by Langenator
KGBrick wrote: Edit2: On what crypto said above, this whole situation has made me think about where I draw the line in my mind between protest and riot. In this situation, I would have to start "riot" at the curfew and/or when protesters don't separate themselves from the gentle souls that are setting things on fire, throwing stuff, shooting, looting, etc. If the curfew had been imposed without law-breaking on the part of involved parties, I would consider people violating the curfew to still be protesters, not rioters.
“I dunno, when I see someone on the news running out of an electronics store with a flat screen TV in his arms, my first thought is, ‘he must be fighting for social justice.’”

*Snerk*

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:38 pm
by sheddi
OK, now the UN Secretary-General has made a statement on the topic. We've probably entered The Twilight Zone or something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/ ... MF20140818
(Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on U.S. authorities on Monday to ensure the protection of the rights of protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, where there have been demonstrations and rioting over the fatal police shooting of an unarmed black teen.

"The Secretary-General calls on the authorities to ensure that the rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression are protected," U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters.

"He calls on all to exercise restraint, for law enforcement officials to abide by U.S. and international standards in dealing with demonstrators," Dujarric said.

(Reporting by Michelle Nichols; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:53 pm
by Sworbeyegib
Langenator wrote:
KGBrick wrote: Edit2: On what crypto said above, this whole situation has made me think about where I draw the line in my mind between protest and riot. In this situation, I would have to start "riot" at the curfew and/or when protesters don't separate themselves from the gentle souls that are setting things on fire, throwing stuff, shooting, looting, etc. If the curfew had been imposed without law-breaking on the part of involved parties, I would consider people violating the curfew to still be protesters, not rioters.
“I dunno, when I see someone on the news running out of an electronics store with a flat screen TV in his arms, my first thought is, ‘he must be fighting for social justice.’”

*Snerk*
At one point, the protesters were in fact surrounding a few of the stores being looted forming a barrier attempting to stop some of the looting. But that was before the curfew was set in place.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 1:58 pm
by Blacksheep
sheddi wrote:OK, now the UN Secretary-General has made a statement on the topic. We've probably entered The Twilight Zone or something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/ ... MF20140818
(Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on U.S. authorities on Monday to ensure the protection of the rights of protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, where there have been demonstrations and rioting over the fatal police shooting of an unarmed black teen.

"The Secretary-General calls on the authorities to ensure that the rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression are protected," U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters.

"He calls on all to exercise restraint, for law enforcement officials to abide by U.S. and international standards in dealing with demonstrators," Dujarric said.

(Reporting by Michelle Nichols; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)
twilight zone indeed :roll:

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:02 pm
by KGBrick
sheddi wrote:OK, now the UN Secretary-General has made a statement on the topic. We've probably entered The Twilight Zone or something.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/ ... MF20140818
(Reuters) - U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon called on U.S. authorities on Monday to ensure the protection of the rights of protesters in Ferguson, Missouri, where there have been demonstrations and rioting over the fatal police shooting of an unarmed black teen.

"The Secretary-General calls on the authorities to ensure that the rights to peaceful assembly and freedom of expression are protected," U.N. spokesman Stephane Dujarric told reporters.

"He calls on all to exercise restraint, for law enforcement officials to abide by U.S. and international standards in dealing with demonstrators," Dujarric said.

(Reporting by Michelle Nichols; Editing by Chizu Nomiyama)
"Dear UN,
Thank you for your valuable contribution to this discussion. We appreciate your thoughts and concerns and will take them into account going forward.

Sincerely,
The United States of America"

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:05 pm
by Browning 35
More like 'Piss off back to South Korea if you don't like it'.

(No blue text)

Given how South Korea treats protestors in their country his comments are pretty humorous.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:10 pm
by crypto
Kilo147 wrote:Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.
You'll have to call bullshit on CNN too, there's video of their whole crew proning out at the same time the cops did when they started taking fire.


EDIT: There have been a lot of fireworks lit, to be sure. Most of the 'shots fired' calls are fireworks. But the 2 people who got shot last night werent shot by fireworks, there are plenty of real actual bullets flying. Generally its been someone holding a pistol over the crowd, unloading a mag in the general direction of cops, and then disappearing.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:28 pm
by Kilo147
crypto wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.
You'll have to call bullshit on CNN too, there's video of their whole crew proning out at the same time the cops did when they started taking fire.


EDIT: There have been a lot of fireworks lit, to be sure. Most of the 'shots fired' calls are fireworks. But the 2 people who got shot last night werent shot by fireworks, there are plenty of real actual bullets flying. Generally its been someone holding a pistol over the crowd, unloading a mag in the general direction of cops, and then disappearing.
Hah, relying on CNN to know a bullet from a bursting paper bag.


Well then, they can make "first amendment zones," why not "second amendment zones?"

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 2:40 pm
by KGBrick
Kilo147 wrote:
crypto wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.
You'll have to call bullshit on CNN too, there's video of their whole crew proning out at the same time the cops did when they started taking fire.


EDIT: There have been a lot of fireworks lit, to be sure. Most of the 'shots fired' calls are fireworks. But the 2 people who got shot last night werent shot by fireworks, there are plenty of real actual bullets flying. Generally its been someone holding a pistol over the crowd, unloading a mag in the general direction of cops, and then disappearing.
Hah, relying on CNN to know a bullet from a bursting paper bag.


Well then, they can make "first amendment zones," why not "second amendment zones?"
Bullets have been fired. Where do you think they are aimed (I use that loosely), if not at LEOs?

Tim Pool was not, at the time, reasonably near LEO positions, but he had one bullet pass close enough to him to hear it buzz and several more close enough that the sonic boom was as loud (to the camera) as the gunshot. Tim may have a bit of trouble identifying gunshots (or was that adrenaline?) but I do not.

Edit: Tim was in the general direction, from the 'protestors,' of the majority of LEOs. It doesn't mean the shots were necessarily fired at law enforcement but I don't know of any other good hypothesis.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:06 pm
by RickOShea
I think the Guv just lifted the curfew.

Local Wal Mart supposedly stacking shopping carts and tall pallets of bottled water next to the windows and doors to try to slow down/deter looters. :ooh:

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:08 pm
by Blacksheep
RickOShea wrote:I think the Guv just lifted the curfew.

Local Wal Mart supposedly stacking shopping carts and tall pallets of bottled water next to the windows and doors to try to slow down/deter looters. :ooh:
Did they actually close?

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:14 pm
by nolongpork
So a what if scenario is playing thorough my head....

At what point do you John Q. Public remove yourself from the situation AKA bug out? being caught between two sides is bad. I doubt defending your "bug in" location is going to be viewed well by either side at present. I feel that the NG and PD are going to look at you as a potential liability regardless of intent and any action you may take legal or not will be squashed. The rioters I believe if this progresses will take the mindset of if you are not with us you are against us. I see the ability to remain neutral fading fast.

So myself imagining what would I do for me and mine. I think the time has come to go visit friends till this is resolved. My priority and loyalty is to my family of blood and choice.

So to ZS people there, what say you about my line of thinking?

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:22 pm
by crypto
Rebel Pariah wrote:
RickOShea wrote:I think the Guv just lifted the curfew.

Local Wal Mart supposedly stacking shopping carts and tall pallets of bottled water next to the windows and doors to try to slow down/deter looters. :ooh:
Did they actually close?
Oh yeah dude, they've been closing up and barricading doors at night for the last week.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:26 pm
by RepoMan73
Browning 35 wrote:Michael Brown had marijuana in his system.

http://www.examiner.com/article/report- ... his-system

What'd I tell you about those Swisher Sweets? :wink:

Wow I am completely unsurprised at that news. If the story of him charging the officer is true, I would expect him to have harder stuff in his system though.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:28 pm
by crypto
nolongpork wrote: So to ZS people there, what say you about my line of thinking?
I think that you are vastly overstating the risk level of the current environment.

To be clear: What is being contested is about a half-mile of space, on West Florissant road, between Chambers road to the north and Canfield to the south. It is a commercial area. All of the major altercations and clashes with police have been on this stretch of road. Looting, when it has occurred, has been on this corridor, stretching a little further in both directions when every cop in the area is tied up with the riot.

There have been no cases of home invasions related to the riots. The background level of opportunistic burglary has risen perhaps a little, but for the most part its a lot easier to bust into a retail target than a home, because there's enough loot for everyone in the former scenario, while you never know whats in a house in the latter. 2 of my chapter members live in Ferguson, and they have families. They are not leaving, as long as you stay off W. Florissant at night, you're fine.

Ferguson is safe during the day. Shops are open and people are going about their business. People are acting like its Oakland, but it absolutely is not.

I might add that Michael Brown was the first gun-related homicide of 2014 in Ferguson. It's certainly not crime free, but it's less lethal that most places.

Re: Riots in St Louis?

Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2014 3:29 pm
by RepoMan73
Kilo147 wrote:Calling bullshit on the cops being shot at. Every time. They've said shots fired, they've revised their story and admitted it was fireworks.

Haven't there been several people shot and one killed during the riots? With the level of violence seen, doesn't seem unlikely that they were shot at.