Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by McSquishin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:21 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: Beating a cop in the head and trying to grab his gun isn't attempting to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this. Stop parroting this damn line, well know what's up after the autopsies.
No evidence? While I have yet to see a photo of a bloodied and bruised officer, it was stated by County Police Chief Joe Belmar. Has he, or anyone in a position of authority, recanted this?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:22 pm

McSquishin wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: Beating a cop in the head and trying to grab his gun isn't attempting to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this. Stop parroting this damn line, well know what's up after the autopsies.
No evidence? While I have yet to see a photo of a bloodied and bruised officer, it was stated by County Police Chief Joe Belmar. Has he, or anyone in a position of authority, recanted this?
A press release does not constitute evidence.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:22 pm

ZombieGranny wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:It was shoplifting, with the store employee blocking his path, an action that is nothing short of escalation, and illegal in many states.
It is illegal to try to stop someone from stealing from you?
Different states have different laws. Some states do require you to retreat. I will absolutely guarantee that there is no duty to retreat in LA, TX, AL and FL.

I doubt MO has a duty to retreat and thus I believe this statement is incorrect as it applies in MO.I would also note that every state in the US has a right of citizen's arrest where anyone (willing to take on the liability) can hold and detain a person if there is proof of criminal activity.

In LA the use of lethal force by the store owner would likely have been ruled justified. In incident was a bona fide assault and battery in connection with shoplifting. Obviously that does not carry over the LEO unless the LEO could demonstrate he too was in fear for his life.
Last edited by raptor on Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:27 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: Beating a cop in the head and trying to grab his gun isn't attempting to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this. Stop parroting this damn line, we'll know what's up after the autopsies and FBI investigation.
Sure there is. That's what the Chief of Police said that the Officer relayed to him and there's that video recorded right after the shooting where another man spontaneously stated the exact same thing with no prompting whatsoever.

I'm much more inclined to believe a police officer speaking through his chief and a witness talking about the shooting unprompted than I am an accomplice to robbery who was involved in both incidents from beginning to end.

As to whether he'll be indicted or not I've heard legal experts argue it both ways. Doesn't mean he will be. Also doesn't mean he'll be convicted either. I remember douchebags crowing about how Zimmerman was going to get ass-raped once he hit the joint and look what happened there. Ideas in the public or politically motivated prosecutions do not a conviction make.

I will await for the autopsy results with interest. Specifically the tox-screen, the GSR test and what they have to say about the entrance or exit wounds and if there's any powder burns.

Brown stole Swisher Sweets which are usually taken apart to be used to smoke marihuana. So I wouldn't be surprised if they found that or something else. This last part is a total guess on my part just from running calls though, might not be true.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by McSquishin » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:30 pm

williaty wrote:
McSquishin wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: Beating a cop in the head and trying to grab his gun isn't attempting to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this. Stop parroting this damn line, well know what's up after the autopsies.
No evidence? While I have yet to see a photo of a bloodied and bruised officer, it was stated by County Police Chief Joe Belmar. Has he, or anyone in a position of authority, recanted this?
A press release does not constitute evidence.
You're absolutely right, a quote is not evidence, but I put a lot more faith in the Police Chief than I do the accomplice. Stipulating that there was no assault on the LEO doesn't pass the smell test considering the outcome and all facts we know as of yet. All that said, you're right that the autopsy will provide more info.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:43 pm

williaty wrote:A press release does not constitute evidence.
We're also not lawyers (or at least I'm not) and we're not in a court of law.

We're a bunch of people talking about what we know because it's been released through the news on the internet.
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:44 pm

McSquishin wrote:You're absolutely right, a quote is not evidence, but I put a lot more faith in the Police Chief than I do the accomplice. Stipulating that there was no assault on the LEO doesn't pass the smell test considering the outcome and all facts we know as of yet. All that said, you're right that the autopsy will provide more info.
I would normally give more weight to what an officer says than what an alleged criminal says, but departmental history can cause me to cast equal disbelief on both sides. Click the link, it's a weird one indeed. It also seems like far from the only weird happening with that department from other stories coming out.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:45 pm

The whole problem here is that there are many unanswered questions that must be answered to get to the truth. The truth is likely to be different from what everyone is assuming (on both sides of the issue) to be the truth right now. There is a lot of opinions but few facts.

We have a poster child for substituting opinion for facts here in the despicable actions of Anonymous. I suggest everyone take a deep breath and relax; because folks this is not TV. We will NOT have the answers for a while. We still have a long hot August to get through also.

Set your expectations accordingly.
Last edited by raptor on Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:49 pm

raptor wrote:We still have a long hot August to get through also.
It always amazes me that heat makes rioting and other forms of group violence so much more common. You know what I want to do when it's this hot? Not. Fracking. Move. Someone wanted me to come loot a liquor store with them in the middle of August and my reaction would be "ugh, but it's so hot and humid out there. Three steps and I'll be soaked. Can't we have a riot at a nice, civilized time of year like, say, December?". :lol:

Seriously, how the hell do you work up the energy to throw things and smash up stores when it's 80F and 80% humidity?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:51 pm

williaty wrote:
raptor wrote:We still have a long hot August to get through also.
It always amazes me that heat makes rioting and other forms of group violence so much more common. You know what I want to do when it's this hot? Not. Fracking. Move. Someone wanted me to come loot a liquor store with them in the middle of August and my reaction would be "ugh, but it's so hot and humid out there. Three steps and I'll be soaked. Can't we have a riot at a nice, civilized time of year like, say, December?". :lol:

Seriously, how the hell do you work up the energy to throw things and smash up stores when it's 80F and 80% humidity?

I wish it were 80F and 80% humidity. The sun has set and it still 85F and 92% humidity here. :D
Riots rarely happen in blizzards for some reason. However, add heat and people grumpy from the heat and away they go...


https://www.bing.com/weather/search?q=f ... ORM=DTPWEA

Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday of next week is supposed to be in the high 90's.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by TacAir » Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:59 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote: Beating a cop in the head and trying to grab his gun isn't attempting to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm?
There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to support this. Stop parroting this damn line, we'll know what's up after the autopsies and FBI investigation.
You might want to turn the volume down there, Holmes.

"The Ferguson police chief said Wilson has been on administrative leave since the Aug. 9 shooting. Wilson was treated for injuries after the incident, said Jackson, who told CBS affiliate KMOV that the officer "was hit" and the "side of his face was swollen." "

Don't know about grabbing the gun, but the cop took a lick. Either that or the Police Chief is a lying sack, **not proven** up to now.
BTW - The Law not only differs from State to State but often within each State. Please don't confuse what you "know" with what the actual law is in a different area - it works better for everyone that way.

Also there is a video out on the web with some chatter in the background...take it with the usual truckload of salt.
****
The eye witness talking on this video describes the exact same scenario.

The value in this is specifically because it is unguarded, and unprompted, testimony from an eyewitness that contradicts several others who spoke later but may have an agenda or pressure from the community.

Again, the conversation to focus on is in the background - Here’s the video and my seriously rough attempt at transcription, the important part is at 06:28 point: [ "#2" is the male eye witness ]

@6:28/6:29 of video

#1 How’d he get from there to there?

#2 Because he ran, the police was still in the truck – cause he was like over the truck

{crosstalk}

#2 But him and the police was both in the truck, then he ran – the police got out and ran after him

{crosstalk}

#2 Then the next thing I know he doubled back toward him cus - the police had his gun drawn already on him –

#1. Oh, the police got his gun

#2 The police kept dumpin on him, and I’m thinking the police kept missing – he like – be like – but he kept coming toward him

{crosstalk}

#2 Police fired shots – the next thing I know – the police was missing

#1 The Police?

#2 The Police shot him

#1 Police?

#2 The next thing I know … I’m thinking … the dude started running … (garbled something about “he took it from him”)

Additionally, this eye witness account clarifies other issues and disputes the “shot in back narrative”. The police vehicle was positioned “screen view left” – Mike Brown’s body is positioned head toward police vehicle. This would also corroborate both the Officer (as told to his friend) and this witness account of what transpired.
**** (NO. You can find the link for yourself, it's bad enough to post the text)

Again, this is floating out on the web, just like everything else. Until it all gets sorted out, any opinion is just that. An O P I N I O N. **Not fact**. Pays to remember that.

Me? I'm gonna hold off on an opinion until they make a presentation in court, makes my dinner easier to eat, ya know?

You may now go back to the arguing and such....
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by airmandan » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:18 pm

Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by yossarian » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:22 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/mi ... &referrer=

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:23 pm

airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by yossarian » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:31 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.

Source? Is it clear that he wasn't threatening to shoot him with ear plugs or other LTL/
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:34 pm

yossarian wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
airmandan wrote:Sounds like things are getting crazy tonight. Good luck down there folks. Be safe.

Shots fired and security guard being attacked in store.
, local news just had a cop threaten to execute them.

Source? Is it clear that he wasn't threatening to shoot him with ear plugs or other LTL/

Timcast on livestream. Sidearm pointed at face, says I will shoot you in the face. MSNBC was told if the cops see them again they will be maced and arrested. Journalists have been arrested throughout the night, only to be released away from the action.

Police are in full military gear, firing wood plugs at protesters and rioters alike.


Edit: don't know what stream it's on, but police are threatening journalists, "move or we will shoot you" while holding sidearms
Last edited by Kilo147 on Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:37 pm

yossarian wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/mi ... &referrer=

Mr. Brown, 18, was also shot four times in the right arm, he said, adding that all the bullets were fired into his front.
Well there ya go, 6 gunshot wounds.

Thought this was interesting and will probably cause the most speculation and controversy.
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:41 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”


Again, inconclusive. Either he was charging the officer or on the ground.

At this point I'm more worried about the hyper militarization of police than what happened to Brown. There's not a thing that can be said that isn't heresay or inconclusive. We just have to wait for all relevant investigations to complete. That said, nothing terrifies me more than police that are better equipped than active duty solders, and have a tenth the training.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:47 pm

Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”


Again, inconclusive. Either he was charging the officer or on the ground.

At this point I'm more worried about the hyper militarization of police than what happened to Brown. Nothing terrifies me more than police that are better equipped than active duty solders, and have a tenth the training..
Yeah, pretty much.

Either charging like a 300 pound 6'4 grizzly or meekly giving up.

Clear as mud?
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:52 pm

Kilo147 wrote:At this point I'm more worried about the hyper militarization of police than what happened to Brown. Nothing terrifies me more than police that are better equipped than active duty solders, and have a tenth the training..
Bingo. There's two entirely separate stories unwinding here.

One, we have the interactions between Brown and the police officer that resulted in Brown's death. This is a medium-sized deal in that it could speak to institutional problems in the department if the outside investigation concludes the shoot was bad.

Two, we have the law enforcement response to the protests, rioting, and media once the civil unrest began. This is a HUGE deal. FWIW, the various LE bodies in the area met with the ACLU and others either today or yesterday to clarify that the public and journalists are in fact allowed to be in the areas of conflict and to film the police doing their jobs. Yet tonight we have police harassing the media even though just hours ago they said they wouldn't. I will say I am glad the not-as-local cops are seeming to be trying to hold a hard stance on this without going to the absurd mall-ninja levels of armament the locals did.


So, for all that, is there a summary of what's going on tonight? The Reddit feed is awesome for detail, but bad for big-picture stuff unless you watch it incessantly.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Kilo147 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:58 pm

It's funny. This would all be a non issue if the fucking cops had bought dash cams instead of MRAPS and LRADS.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:03 pm

Kilo147 wrote:It's funny. This would all be a non issue if the fucking cops had bought dash cams instead of MRAPS and LRADS.
They did buy cameras, they just had not installed them yet. Cameras lie sometimes anyway or don't tell the whole story in any case. Still it would have been better to have them. Also, the police in Ferguson do not have an MRAP or LRAD nor could they buy one if they wanted to.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by airmandan » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:03 pm

I'm listening to the radio feed, and it's an absolute shit show right now.

Shots being fired everywhere, police were supposed to pull back but they keep getting reports of shots being fired, just now reports of shots being fired into a crowd. Multiple reports of looting. One report of a security officer being beaten in a building. Multiple buildings on fire. Multiple burglaries in progress. Also a report of a crowd going down the street shooting fireworks into and at houses. 2 vehicle accident, 1 person lying on the ground.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:05 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
Kilo147 wrote:
Browning 35 wrote:
“This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”


Again, inconclusive. Either he was charging the officer or on the ground.

At this point I'm more worried about the hyper militarization of police than what happened to Brown. Nothing terrifies me more than police that are better equipped than active duty solders, and have a tenth the training..
Yeah, pretty much.

Either charging like a 300 pound 6'4 grizzly or meekly giving up.

Clear as mud?
Yeah, make sure you make a life changing/ ending decision in that time frame and be right or else.
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