Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by yossarian » Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:21 am

And now it's the looters trying to suppress the media, by threatening to throw molotov cocktails at them.
3 minutes ago

LOOTERS ARE THREATENING MEDIA WITH MOLOTOV COCKTAILS IN HAND
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:59 am

Neptune Glory wrote:This situation is so fucked now, it's a complete shade of grey.

Michael Brown seems to be the person in the video of the convenience store robbery, seen strong-arming the clerk... which is a violent felony.

Police are allowed to shoot people who are running away *if* they are suspected violent felons. It's Missouri State law, possibly federal law as well.

Did the officer know / learn during the stop that Michael Brown was a suspected violent felon?

One version, "Didn't know, didn't care, he went for my gun."

Another version, "Uh... yeah! I saw the stolen goods and knew he was a violent felon alleged."
Doesn't really matter as assaulting a police officer and depriving him of his firearm are both felonies. That also gives Brown a pretty strong reason to attack the officer with him being unaware (at least initially, might have dawned on him as the situation progressed).
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:28 am

DarkAxel wrote: ...Mr. Brown's character and previous actions are completely irrelevant. Mr. Brown may have been a criminal, but if that LEO shot him illegally, then he's a criminal as well, and no better than his victim.

I agree it is way too soon and there are without a doubt a lot more facts that will likely come out (or as you correctly point out may never come to light) about the incident. Anonymous showed the world though their despicable actions of falsely blaming an innocent person of murder what happens then.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. In my opinion Brown's prior actions (& even character) are germane. Here is why.

We see Brown shortly before the shooting, strong arming a store owner and stealing goods by force. We see him clearly not respect the rights of others and indeed inflict minor injury to a much smaller individual simply because he can. That to me says he has done this before (maybe not at that store) but his physical actions clearly show confidence which comes from experience. the person in the video is an experienced thug used to using force to get what he wants. This speaks to both character and Brown's thought process in the minutes leading up to the fatal encounter with the LEO. We also see his companion participated in the theft.

This same companion is the one who initially claimed in effect that they were simply J walking minding their own business when the LEO stopped the car got out and shot Brown several times. This companion obviously has an incentive (avoiding robbery charges) to be less than truthful.

Now if you put yourself in Brown's mind during this time frame. He is probably enjoying his theft of the goods pumped up and feeling proud that he beat the store owner out of the goods. He is young, tough and therefore likely feeling invincible. When he and the LEO meet Brown's attitude is not likely to revert to the same attitude of a good law abiding citizen. I would think therefore that a hostile response by Brown to the LEO is much more plausible. Obviously YMMV but I am willing to bet a proud, smug thug is more likely to act violently/inappropriately towards a LEO than most people not engaged in thug like activities.

Now yes I do absolutely agree that if the LEO shot Brown inappropriately then his actions are criminal. I also agree that just being a thug is not justification for shooting anyone...unless they are threatening you, trespassing or otherwise actively engaged in thugish activity. That said I am willing to bet that the story told by Brown's companion is false. I am also willing to bet that there was a struggle between Brown and the LEO for exactly the reasons outlined above.

I am very much a "right is right wrong is wrong" person. The information about the strong arm robbery influenced my opinion about the matter. It will influence others. It is for that reason Browns prior actions and character are IMO quite germane.

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These are pictures of a thug engaged in violence. That violence IMO has a high probability of continuing to the encounter with the LEO.



I am likewise more inclined to believe this case was more likely an instance of an unlawful LEO shooting than the Brown case.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58287 ... e.html.csp

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Zimmy » Sat Aug 16, 2014 12:40 pm

raptor wrote:
DarkAxel wrote: ...Mr. Brown's character and previous actions are completely irrelevant. Mr. Brown may have been a criminal, but if that LEO shot him illegally, then he's a criminal as well, and no better than his victim.

I agree it is way too soon and there are without a doubt a lot more facts that will likely come out (or as you correctly point out may never come to light) about the incident. Anonymous showed the world though their despicable actions of falsely blaming an innocent person of murder what happens then.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. In my opinion Brown's prior actions (& even character) are germane. Here is why.

We see Brown shortly before the shooting, strong arming a store owner and stealing goods by force. We see him clearly not respect the rights of others and indeed inflict minor injury to a much smaller individual simply because he can. That to me says he has done this before (maybe not at that store) but his physical actions clearly show confidence which comes from experience. the person in the video is an experienced thug used to using force to get what he wants. This speaks to both character and Brown's thought process in the minutes leading up to the fatal encounter with the LEO. We also see his companion participated in the theft.

This same companion is the one who initially claimed in effect that they were simply J walking minding their own business when the LEO stopped the car got out and shot Brown several times. This companion obviously has an incentive (avoiding robbery charges) to be less than truthful.

Now if you put yourself in Brown's mind during this time frame. He is probably enjoying his theft of the goods pumped up and feeling proud that he beat the store owner out of the goods. He is young, tough and therefore likely feeling invincible. When he and the LEO meet Brown's attitude is not likely to revert to the same attitude of a good law abiding citizen. I would think therefore that a hostile response by Brown to the LEO is much more plausible. Obviously YMMV but I am willing to bet a proud, smug thug is more likely to act violently/inappropriately towards a LEO than most people not engaged in thug like activities.

Now yes I do absolutely agree that if the LEO shot Brown inappropriately then his actions are criminal. I also agree that just being a thug is not justification for shooting anyone...unless they are threatening you, trespassing or otherwise actively engaged in thugish activity. That said I am willing to bet that the story told by Brown's companion is false. I am also willing to bet that there was a struggle between Brown and the LEO for exactly the reasons outlined above.

I am very much a "right is right wrong is wrong" person. The information about the strong arm robbery influenced my opinion about the matter. It will influence others. It is for that reason Browns prior actions and character are IMO quite germane.

Image

These are pictures of a thug engaged in violence. That violence IMO has a high probability of continuing to the encounter with the LEO.



I am likewise more inclined to believe this case was more likely an instance of an unlawful LEO shooting than the Brown case.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58287 ... e.html.csp

The autopsy results will reveal if drugs might have had an influence on Mr Brown's decision making. There's a lot of over-the-top decision making going on here.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Woods Walker » Sat Aug 16, 2014 2:55 pm

raptor wrote:
DarkAxel wrote: ...Mr. Brown's character and previous actions are completely irrelevant. Mr. Brown may have been a criminal, but if that LEO shot him illegally, then he's a criminal as well, and no better than his victim.

I agree it is way too soon and there are without a doubt a lot more facts that will likely come out (or as you correctly point out may never come to light) about the incident. Anonymous showed the world though their despicable actions of falsely blaming an innocent person of murder what happens then.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. In my opinion Brown's prior actions (& even character) are germane. Here is why.....
I agree with raptor. In fact I am surprised he even needed to explain it.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by duodecima » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:21 pm

As far as the original shooting, I don't know that there's anything more I can form an opinion about until more facts become available, which will just take time.

But in looking over the events from last night - while it's disheartening that the looting happened again, it seems like it was much more limited, the protestors blocked the looters out of some stores, and the protestors (as opposed to the looters) and police managed to avoid any major engagements. Also, while the police didn't engage like they did on Tuesday and Wednesday, it was made pretty clear that they've still got the option to do so (tear gas/smoke, riot gear, etc) if needed.

Thursday during the day, it was clear that many steps were being taken that set Thursday night up to be much calmer. I can't tell, today, if that's the case again. It seems like mainstream media doesn't publish as much on the weekends. Any of our St Louis folks have additional places to get news, or insights?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:33 pm

Reading back through the reddit feed from last night, I think police went too far to the other direction. Why aren't they picking up the looters? The community doesn't want them being aggressive with them, but that doesn't mean the community wants criminals looting and vandalizing the businesses. Why didn't police respond to the criminal activity?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DannusMaximus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:55 pm

Anianna wrote:Reading back through the reddit feed from last night, I think police went too far to the other direction. Why aren't they picking up the looters? The community doesn't want them being aggressive with them, but that doesn't mean the community wants criminals looting and vandalizing the businesses. Why didn't police respond to the criminal activity?
:lol:

Much love, Anianna, but your quote profoundly demonstrates the literally impossible task presented to domestic LE in instances like this. Come in hard and they're racist, overmilitarized, barely restrained gestapo. Back off a bit and the public cries "Why aren't they DOING something to stop this violence?!?!?!" I'm sure every exhausted street cop in the country would be thrilled to learn techniques which would allow them to stop looters, vandals, and arsonists without being "aggressive with them".

Makes me overjoyed to be a firefigher and not a cop... :wink:
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Neptune Glory » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:03 pm

Gov Nixon declared a state of emergency, and imposed a midnight - 5am curfew on Ferguson today.

Hopefully that will lead into the peaceful protesters heading home at about that time... leaving the police to be able to more actively protect the city and it's shops since the looters won't have the peaceful protesters to mingle with / hide behind / hide among.

It could also backfire horribly... I guess we'll find out.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:15 pm

Thanks for the answer to my question on reddit, Crypto. :mrgreen:

DannusMaximus, yea, they are in a difficult position which is certainly made more difficult by some poor decisions made early on. It's a real shame those businesses have to deal with the damage and loss, though, and some citizens potentially put themselves in harms way to protect at least on of those stores. Such a messed up situation. :(
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DannusMaximus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:47 pm

Anianna wrote:DannusMaximus, yea, they are in a difficult position which is certainly made more difficult by some poor decisions made early on. It's a real shame those businesses have to deal with the damage and loss, though, and some citizens potentially put themselves in harms way to protect at least on of those stores. Such a messed up situation. :(
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RickOShea » Sat Aug 16, 2014 5:56 pm

Neptune Glory wrote:Gov Nixon declared a state of emergency, and imposed a midnight - 5am curfew on Ferguson today.

Hopefully that will lead into the peaceful protesters heading home at about that time... leaving the police to be able to more actively protect the city and it's shops since the looters won't have the peaceful protesters to mingle with / hide behind / hide among.

It could also backfire horribly... I guess we'll find out.
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Being told/ordered by the "Authorities" to be off the streets at midnight, or else?.....I'm thinking "or else" will probably be the box that gets checked. :ooh:
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Mooha182 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 6:41 pm

Neptune Glory wrote:Gov Nixon declared a state of emergency, and imposed a midnight - 5am curfew on Ferguson today.

Hopefully that will lead into the peaceful protesters heading home at about that time... leaving the police to be able to more actively protect the city and it's shops since the looters won't have the peaceful protesters to mingle with / hide behind / hide among.

It could also backfire horribly... I guess we'll find out.
-Neptune
Back to the spirit of the thread....

I think that till will help separate those who are wishing to cause problems versus those who wish to break the law. I have to wonder if it will be acceptable for those store owners to protect their businesses even after hours.

Anyone in the area or surrounding area? What precautions are you taking? Anyone with family? What are you hearing from them?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Sat Aug 16, 2014 7:17 pm

Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Valarius » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:33 pm

Question. How's everybody in St. Louis doing right now?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:48 pm

raptor wrote:...
I am very much a "right is right wrong is wrong" person. The information about the strong arm robbery influenced my opinion about the matter. It will influence others. It is for that reason Browns prior actions and character are IMO quite germane...
I'm very much a "right is right and wrong is wrong" person myself. I'll amend my statement and say that Mr Brown's prior acts and and character are relevant but in and of themselves do not provide justification for shooting him.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:53 pm

Woods Walker wrote:
raptor wrote:
DarkAxel wrote: ...Mr. Brown's character and previous actions are completely irrelevant. Mr. Brown may have been a criminal, but if that LEO shot him illegally, then he's a criminal as well, and no better than his victim.

I agree it is way too soon and there are without a doubt a lot more facts that will likely come out (or as you correctly point out may never come to light) about the incident. Anonymous showed the world though their despicable actions of falsely blaming an innocent person of murder what happens then.

I respectfully disagree with this statement. In my opinion Brown's prior actions (& even character) are germane. Here is why.....
I agree with raptor. In fact I am surprised he even needed to explain it.
I am not surprised he needed to explain it in the least. The sad part is some people still won't get it.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 9:59 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
Anianna wrote:Reading back through the reddit feed from last night, I think police went too far to the other direction. Why aren't they picking up the looters? The community doesn't want them being aggressive with them, but that doesn't mean the community wants criminals looting and vandalizing the businesses. Why didn't police respond to the criminal activity?
:lol:

Much love, Anianna, but your quote profoundly demonstrates the literally impossible task presented to domestic LE in instances like this. Come in hard and they're racist, overmilitarized, barely restrained gestapo. Back off a bit and the public cries "Why aren't they DOING something to stop this violence?!?!?!" I'm sure every exhausted street cop in the country would be thrilled to learn techniques which would allow them to stop looters, vandals, and arsonists without being "aggressive with them".

Makes me overjoyed to be a firefigher and not a cop... :wink:
Simple. Political exigency.

The police are not really in charge of themselves. They are doing what the politicians tell them to do at this point. Unfortunately this means a huge lag for decisions due to the complete lack of knowledge of the tactical situation at hand by the people making the decisions.

How political is it? How about this:
Missouri State Highway Patrol Capt. Ron Johnson, who is in charge of security in Ferguson, said there were 40 FBI agents going door-to-door talking to people who might have seen or have information about the shooting.
While I am sure that will prove fruitful... How often does that happen outside of tvland? Never, that is how often.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:09 pm

SCBrian wrote:
raptor wrote:
Look at the hat on his head in the photo above, the white shirt, dark shorts and shoes. Then look at the the video of Brown lying in the street. (caution graphic content).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjrBm1ehTpk
.
The most telling part of that video comes from 1:45 - 2:45 as someone in the background is giving an eye witness report. To Quote - They were in the car fighting, he (the victim) took off running, the cop took off after him, he (The victim) stopped running and went back after the cop who has his gun drawn already, the cop then "kept dumping into him".

3:45-4:00 - "The dude was still standing after the cop shot, I'm thinking the cop was missing him..."
That is because most people don't know what it looks like when someone gets shot, especially with a handgun.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by duodecima » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:59 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:
raptor wrote: I respectfully disagree with this statement. In my opinion Brown's prior actions (& even character) are germane. Here is why.....
I agree with raptor. In fact I am surprised he even needed to explain it.
I am not surprised he needed to explain it in the least. The sad part is some people still won't get it.
Oh, I "get" that Brown's prior actions shed light on how he came to have some kind of altercation with the officer. Personally it makes the beginning of that whole incident make a lot more sense to me. The implication that it in any way changes the level of scrutiny that needs to be applied to the officer's actions in shooting him is the thing I don't agree with. It may have been completely by-the-book, no other option, and I can see that quite possibly being the case. It may also be that this was an unreasonable and possibly even criminal use of lethal force - this is also possible. At this point I'm waiting on further information, which won't be coming quickly. But Brown's actions prior to encountering the officer who shot him don't justify the shooting.

Perhaps nobody meant to imply that and I misunderstood.

Back to the point of the thread -
RickOShea wrote:
Neptune Glory wrote:Gov Nixon declared a state of emergency, and imposed a midnight - 5am curfew on Ferguson today.

Hopefully that will lead into the peaceful protesters heading home at about that time... leaving the police to be able to more actively protect the city and it's shops since the looters won't have the peaceful protesters to mingle with / hide behind / hide among.

It could also backfire horribly... I guess we'll find out.
-Neptune
Being told/ordered by the "Authorities" to be off the streets at midnight, or else?.....I'm thinking "or else" will probably be the box that gets checked. :ooh:
Some people will undoubtedly choose "or else." Was just listening to somebody who apparently can't back down from a challenge. :? But watching some livestream on YouTube - it sounds like the local community organizers are planning to obey the curfew and asking their people and others to do so. I think this is where Thursday night, and the restraint from the police last night, may have had a helpful effect. The community's right to protest non-violently was affirmed, so the mainstream organizers don't feel the need to stay out tonight after midnight to exercise or defend it in this situation.

Hopefully that will lead to fewer people out to engage with police, and the police can then deal with looters and criminals without them being intermixed with a lot of protesters, but I'm sure there will be incidents. Hopefully they will be few. *crossing fingers*

Practical question - How does the curfew deal with people whose employment requires them to go to or from work during those hours? I grant this is a tiny fraction of people, but since I am occasionally one of them I'm just wondering. Would suck not to get to work because you got arrested for trying to go to work...
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:15 pm

It may have been completely by-the-book, no other option, and I can see that quite possibly being the case. It may also be that this was an unreasonable and possibly even criminal use of lethal force - this is also possible. At this point I'm waiting on further information, which won't be coming quickly. But Brown's actions prior to encountering the officer who shot him don't justify the shooting.
Sure. But what is the standard of proof for a criminal jury trial? I think if the officer is billed he will have absolutely no trouble demonstrating reasonable doubt about a number of issues.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RickOShea » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:21 pm

duodecima wrote:
Practical question - How does the curfew deal with people whose employment requires them to go to or from work during those hours? I grant this is a tiny fraction of people, but since I am occasionally one of them I'm just wondering. Would suck not to get to work because you got arrested for trying to go to work...
If you have a legitimate reason for being out during a curfew (like going to or from work) then in most places it isn't held against you.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Phoenix David » Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:48 pm

raptor wrote:
Look at the hat on his head in the photo above, the white shirt, dark shorts and shoes. Then look at the the video of Brown lying in the street. (caution graphic content).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjrBm1ehTpk
Did they use the Zapruder camera to film that?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DarkAxel » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:27 am

Stercutus wrote:
It may have been completely by-the-book, no other option, and I can see that quite possibly being the case. It may also be that this was an unreasonable and possibly even criminal use of lethal force - this is also possible. At this point I'm waiting on further information, which won't be coming quickly. But Brown's actions prior to encountering the officer who shot him don't justify the shooting.
Sure. But what is the standard of proof for a criminal jury trial? I think if the officer is billed he will have absolutely no trouble demonstrating reasonable doubt about a number of issues.
I tend to agree. However, there is no predicting how a trial jury would react, and there is always the chance that evidence will emerge that would swing the verdict one way or another. There's also the pesky fact that "beyond a reasonable doubt" means different things to different folks, and that really really pesky fact that criminal indictments and trials are often swirling cesspools of political bullshit and populist pressure, especially when racial issues are raised or official police misconduct is alleged. If you (the non-determinative you, not "I'm calling out Stercutus" you) don't think that juries are influenced by such things, I've got some oceanfront property in Tennessee you might be interested in buying.

As an aside, I can't help but wonder if this "Us v Them" mentality is making things much worse than they should be.
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