Riots in St Louis?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Stercutus » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:16 pm

Anianna wrote:This pic is so much different than what we've seen the last several days - today police are amongst the crowd and talking to people instead of lined up in gear:

Image


Reports are saying that there are a lot more people out, but that the tension is low and everything is pleasant. One person even said it feels like a big block party. I think this will go a long way to take some fire out of potential rioters and keep things civil between police and peaceful protestors. Good job, Highway Patrol.
Anyone notice anything different from these police and the Ferguson police?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by SCBrian » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:22 pm

Stercutus wrote:

Anyone notice anything different from these police and the Ferguson police?
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by RickOShea » Thu Aug 14, 2014 9:59 pm

SCBrian wrote:
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:03 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Anianna wrote:This pic is so much different than what we've seen the last several days - today police are amongst the crowd and talking to people instead of lined up in gear:

Image


Reports are saying that there are a lot more people out, but that the tension is low and everything is pleasant. One person even said it feels like a big block party. I think this will go a long way to take some fire out of potential rioters and keep things civil between police and peaceful protestors. Good job, Highway Patrol.
Anyone notice anything different from these police and the Ferguson police?
Image

Can't put my finger on it.

Image

But there is something...
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by williaty » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:06 pm

The difference in appearance is amazing. One set looks like movie badguy invaders, the other set looks like the cops you talked with standing along the 4th of July parade route.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:17 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Anianna wrote:This pic is so much different than what we've seen the last several days - today police are amongst the crowd and talking to people instead of lined up in gear:

Image


Reports are saying that there are a lot more people out, but that the tension is low and everything is pleasant. One person even said it feels like a big block party. I think this will go a long way to take some fire out of potential rioters and keep things civil between police and peaceful protestors. Good job, Highway Patrol.
Anyone notice anything different from these police and the Ferguson police?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Aug 14, 2014 10:49 pm

Image

Reminds me of a sentiment I heard the other day about how things would go if the NG got brought in.

Paraphrased: "Bring in some NG captain that spent several years in AFG and he'll set up a QRF, make all the local PD sit in a corner, and sit down for tea with the local community leaders and talk this shit out."

People behave differently when you treat them like people.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by itzybitzyspyder » Thu Aug 14, 2014 11:25 pm

Tonight was pretty chill. The only city whose protests were hampered was NYC. Last count 4 arrested.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by kyle » Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:30 am

This week has been crazy for local residents. I even had a caravan of looters hit the shoe store in front of my house on Monday night.

Big thanks to Crypto and others for their quick reporting.

However, today was a very good day.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by ineffableone » Fri Aug 15, 2014 6:02 am

BTW I didn't see anyone yet mention, the hacker group Anonymous hacked the Dispatch tapes in regard to the shooting. Seriously messed up stuff there. The cop did not call in the shooting. They learned about it from it being reported on the news!

If interested there are copies of the hacked audio on youtube.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:10 am

ineffableone wrote:BTW I didn't see anyone yet mention, the hacker group Anonymous hacked the Dispatch tapes in regard to the shooting. Seriously messed up stuff there. The cop did not call in the shooting. They learned about it from it being reported on the news!

If interested there are copies of the hacked audio on youtube.
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ineffableone wrote:BTW I didn't see anyone yet mention, the hacker group Anonymous hacked the Dispatch tapes in regard to the shooting. Seriously messed up stuff there. The cop did not call in the shooting. They learned about it from it being reported on the news!

If interested there are copies of the hacked audio on youtube.
Well considering they released the name of a police dispatcher and the wrong address I wouldn't go believing much they said right now without a healthy dose of skepticism.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Zimmy » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:17 am

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Image

Paraphrased: "Bring in some NG captain that spent several years in AFG and he'll set up a QRF, make all the local PD sit in a corner, and sit down for tea with the local community leaders and talk this shit out."

People behave differently when you treat them like people.

That's what I was thinking, too. But without all the uncomfortable violations of personal space and hand holding. :lol:
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Nick Adams » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:34 am

I find myself in the odd place of taking up for the police here but I think the Ferguson police department really was in a no win situation here. Imagine when that mob turned ugly the first night, started looting, burning buildings and shooting at the police etc. the Ferguson police department showed up with a low key response, you know send out some cops in Barny Fife outfits to just talk to them like in that one photo someone posted.
They would be crucified for not doing enough , Black Leaders would probably bring out that the Police just stood by as their neighborhoods were destroyed instead of using equipment to stop it, headlines would read " Ferguson burns as Police keep tear gas back at station", they have all this riot gear how come they didn't use it?
I do think that the police has become too militarized but you have to remember this police response was to a very large and violent mob that was rioting, looting and trying to burn the place down..and shooting at the police who were there.
Also I really doubt that any of these folks turned from peaceful protester to a looter stealing hair extensions because the cops there were dressed a little to military and used tear gas on them.

I've noticed watching all this on the TV how the media is really down playing rioting mob aspect now and going with the military looking police thing. Just read a CNN opinon piece " Ferguson, a war Zone or US city?" No where do they even mention the riots, looting,burning down of buildings or shooting at the police but rather says " ..if a city needs a swat unit that should be reserved for extraordinary situations..should not be deployed for routine policing calls"
Guess a rioting Mob isn't an extraordinary situation?

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:45 am

@Nick

That's a valid point.

Actually I think the reason the situation has changed in tone a bit is two fold.
A) The rioting, burning and looting have been blown out of their system (even thugs have an emotional limit to drama and they must realize that their window of opportunity for free stuff is pretty much over).
B) There was a changing of the guard and the Gov sent in the Missouri Highway Patrol and they're at least partly comprised of the same ethnic group and so the residents are actually giving them a chance.
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:01 am

Actually, I think the tone of police work in the city over a long period of time had a lot to do with the mob response. How they approach their jobs and interact with the citizenry sets that tone and I don't think they went from "protect and serve" to "this is war" overnight. This has been festering for a long time and the incident that occurred Saturday set off an already existing powder keg of emotions. The militarization of our police forces changes their perspective and intimidates the citizenry. It's the wrong message that separates and divides. The shooting of Mike Brown may or may not be justified, but the entire situation might have been prevented had there been different attitudes among both the police and the citizenry in the first place.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:11 am

Anianna wrote:Actually, I think the tone of police work in the city over a long period of time had a lot to do with the mob response. How they approach their jobs and interact with the citizenry sets that tone and I don't think they went from "protect and serve" to "this is war" overnight. This has been festering for a long time and the incident that occurred Saturday set off an already existing powder keg of emotions. The militarization of our police forces changes their perspective and intimidates the citizenry. It's the wrong message that separates and divides. The shooting of Mike Brown may or may not be justified, but the entire situation might have been prevented had there been different attitudes among both the police and the citizenry in the first place.
The problem with that viewpoint is that most of those officers weren't from the Ferguson Police Dept, there's only 53 of them period. I saw a lot more than 53 out there. Most were drawn from the St. Louis County Police (who had nothing to do with the shooting of Michael Brown either).

Nixon orders St. Louis County Police be taken off Ferguson security lead
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Neptune Glory » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:44 am

Browning 35 wrote:
Anianna wrote:Actually, I think the tone of police work in the city over a long period of time had a lot to do with the mob response. How they approach their jobs and interact with the citizenry sets that tone and I don't think they went from "protect and serve" to "this is war" overnight. This has been festering for a long time and the incident that occurred Saturday set off an already existing powder keg of emotions. The militarization of our police forces changes their perspective and intimidates the citizenry. It's the wrong message that separates and divides. The shooting of Mike Brown may or may not be justified, but the entire situation might have been prevented had there been different attitudes among both the police and the citizenry in the first place.
The problem with that viewpoint is that most of those officers weren't from the Ferguson Police Dept, there's only 53 of them period. I saw a lot more than 53 out there. Most were drawn from the St. Louis County Police (who had nothing to do with the shooting of Michael Brown either).

Nixon orders St. Louis County Police be taken off Ferguson security lead
St. Louis County police mishandled the situation, unfortunately.

Ideally, all the heavy gear would have been staged a bit away from the demonstrations as the sun went down, and it could have been called into service if needed. What seems to have actually happened was, the heavy gear was front-line deployed from the beginning, which exacerbated an already tense situation.

The burning of the Quik Trip and the looting that happened in the first night, I don't think anybody blames that on how local or county police handed *the first night*. That was the reaction to the death of Mike Brown... and some folks who weren't from Ferguson being knuckleheads and taking advantage of an opportunity to loot.

But after the first night, the routine deployment of armored vehicles / police officers / etc? That's on the county police leadership for ordering / allowing such to take place.

I'm thankful that the State Police are trying a different tactic, and even more thankful that it seems to be working.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Boondock » Fri Aug 15, 2014 8:55 am

sheddi wrote:I imagine that Wee Drop's regional constabulary ...
I would imagine so, as well. There's a lot of stark differences between the U.S. and European press.

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:00 am

You have to look how the St Louis Police handled the riot in context though.

This was after looting, after violence against police and business personnel & residents, after fire were lit and businesses were destroyed. Personally I think they ended up being heavy handed and I'm not real happy with the way they were shooting people on the street with rubber bullets, gassing people in their front yards (even if they were running around screaming 'This is my shit' and acting like loons) and arresting journalists, but you still have to look at the situation in context.

Wasn't like they just busted out the riot gear for no reason.

-
At any rate they released the officers name and the police released information saying that they suspect that Michael Brown was a participant in a 'strong-arm robbery' (punching a convenience store clerk, grabbing some cigars and running) and that this is the reason he was initially approached. Supposedly the police are going to release the video of the incident at the convenience store (it wasn't the QT that was burned down).

6-year police veteran named in shooting of Michael Brown (*Click*)
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Anianna » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:32 am

Browning 35 wrote:
Anianna wrote:Actually, I think the tone of police work in the city over a long period of time had a lot to do with the mob response. How they approach their jobs and interact with the citizenry sets that tone and I don't think they went from "protect and serve" to "this is war" overnight. This has been festering for a long time and the incident that occurred Saturday set off an already existing powder keg of emotions. The militarization of our police forces changes their perspective and intimidates the citizenry. It's the wrong message that separates and divides. The shooting of Mike Brown may or may not be justified, but the entire situation might have been prevented had there been different attitudes among both the police and the citizenry in the first place.
The problem with that viewpoint is that most of those officers weren't from the Ferguson Police Dept, there's only 53 of them period. I saw a lot more than 53 out there. Most were drawn from the St. Louis County Police (who had nothing to do with the shooting of Michael Brown either).

Nixon orders St. Louis County Police be taken off Ferguson security lead
I think the same toxic steriotypes and misperceptions could have been prevelant in two departments from the same general area. Many police departments have moved from a community perspective to a gotta getem sort of view and I think a lot of that has to do with the militarization of police forces over the last twenty years or so. I'm just saying that a lot of this sort of thing may be preventable through a change in perspective and attitude.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by Browning 35 » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:42 am

Anianna wrote:I think the same toxic steriotypes and misperceptions could have been prevelant in two departments from the same general area. Many police departments have moved from a community perspective to a gotta getem sort of view and I think a lot of that has to do with the militarization of police forces over the last twenty years or so. I'm just saying that a lot of this sort of thing may be preventable through a change in perspective and attitude.
Possible. Also brings the saying 'If a guy gets kicked out of one bar maybe it's the bar, if he gets kicked out of two bars maybe it's not the bar but the guy' to mind.

Meaning criminal and disruptive elements of both the residents and radical outsiders freaked the fuck out on two different departments. So maybe it's not just the departments.

Personally I think it was both (the residents/radicals AND the police) making mistakes. Play stupid games and burn and loot and throw shit and win stupid prizes and the police in this country are militarized into playing a certain role. Both equally aren't exactly conducive to a peaceful resolution, fact finding and calm discussion.
Mr. E. Monkey wrote:
Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by duodecima » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:50 am

Browning 35 wrote:Wasn't like they just busted out the riot gear for no reason.
No, of course not. But how the second night (and day! There were important things during the day Thursday that set the tone for Thursday night to be different) got handled escalated the tension for the third night. Having a reason for an action doesn't make the action either justified or effective.
Nick Adams wrote:I find myself in the odd place of taking up for the police here but I think the Ferguson police department really was in a no win situation here.
Yes, but I think that's primarily because, as Ani pointed out, they and the people who live there have a long history with each other. I think Monday night was a situation balanced on a knifepoint - handled differently I think the situation could have de-escalated more quickly - but the presence of two groups with old issues guiding their reactions to each other likely made that impossible. Between the history and the display of potential force at the ready, citizens who weren't violent were more concerned about the police than about the looters (who may or may not have even been from that community).

Nobody's arguing that people burning down a building isn't extraordinary. But just because a measure "should be reserved for extraordinary situations" does not make it the right move for that particular extraordinary situation.

I will say, as effed up as that whole mess got - nobody else died, and as far as I know the one officer-involved shooting is the only serious injury. I'm relieved it wasn't worse.

Basically I agree with Browning - it's both parties to various extents, and it may have been that bringing in a 3rd party not previously enmeshed in the poor relationship was the only thing that was going to calm this down.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:36 am

Good discussion, folks.

There is a LOT of focus on how the police LOOKED scary. Roger that. Absolutely part of the point of police officers flexed up in riot gear is to let ne'er do wells know that they're going to bring some pain if things start to get stupid. If you know what you're looking at, are they that scary?

Helmets - pretty standard items for LE in riot gear
Patrol rifles - pretty common items, for both LE and non-LE citizens
Knee / elbow pads - Not scary
Gas masks - pretty standard item if you anticipate using tear gas
Visible body armor - pretty standard item for LE geared up for riot control
Armored cars - not tanks, not even remotely tanks, not even in the same area code as tanks

I think literally everything the police were carrying (minus the tear gas grenades) can be purchased by pretty much anybody that wants to part with the coin. Heck, I know some ZS guys that have every single item worn by even the most heavily kitted out police officers.

Still, perception is often reality. LE needs to start listening - - when citizens of all stripes begin to routinely say that they don't like cops looking like soldiers, I think our domestic LE needs to look at protective measures for their officers that don't LOOK as scary. A row of police officers with helmets, face shields, shotguns and riot shields is already pretty intimidating. Perhaps LE can look at integrated elbow/knee pads, 'non military' looking BDU uniforms (plain light blue or navy blue, perhaps) without bloused boots, lower capacity magazines (20 rounders) in patrol rifles or visible shotguns only, lower profile riot armor, yadda yadda. I like the idea of a group of basically traditionally kitted out LE as the visible front line, with an up-equipped QRF staged nearby to reinforce hot spots.

And officers, stop suppressing the media or anybody else recording things. Just stop that. The days of that being okay are so far gone. I don't particularly care for some yahoo filming a bloody car wreck or me trying to give medical aid to some derelict who has overdosed and is dancing naked in the street, but if the filmers are standing out of my way and in a public area, nothing I can do about it.

And stop pointing rifles at people that aren't visibly armed. Seriously.
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Re: Riots in St Louis?

Post by raptor » Fri Aug 15, 2014 10:56 am

Browning 35 wrote: Well considering they released the name of a police dispatcher and the wrong address I wouldn't go believing much they said right now without a healthy dose of skepticism.

Stepmom fears for life after hackers release wrong name (*Click*)

Audio can be jacked with.
/start rant

I cannot heap enough scorn and contempt upon Anonymous for this despicable action. They are putting the life of an innocent uninvolved person at risk based upon some goofball's guess. Then they justify the error by saying "at least it will put pressure on to reveal the real person's name".

That is truly despicable.

It is one thing to speak the truth with tangible albeit ill gotten proof that you are speaking the truth but yet another thing to put an innocent at risk of death with an opinion that is claimed as a fact. :vmad:


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