Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby TacAir » Thu Jun 14, 2012 8:33 pm

Blast wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:
Blast wrote:So how does one prepare physically, financially, and materially for austerity here in the USA?
-Blast

Same as anywhere else in the world I'd imagine...

Be as self suficient as possible, own your house outright, own all your own shit outright, be debt free, try to be in a position to minimise your taxes as much as possible (legitimately) as taxes will likely increase a lot under austerity programs, expect government benefits to decrease signifigantly and prepare for the possible fallout from same, try to be in a resilient networked community, safe diversified investments (whatever they might be) would be a good idea too.

-


JINX!

In other words, just keep doing what I've been doing. :D No debt except for a bit left on the housed, good neighbors all around, plenty of food on hand, good job working for Big Oil, etc...

Are there any shortages of good likely to occur, such as shoes or other basic neccesities? Anything like that that I should buy now?
-Blast


FWIW, if you have coverage, I would get ALL of your dental work done ASAP. Once insurance gos thru the roof, or is simply not offered, you'll wish you got it done when you could.


I asked my dad how they (his family) survived the Great Depression..

His answer was simple - we chose not to participate. That is to say, he moved the family several times in a decade to follow work.
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Greece on Edge of Financial Collapse

Postby Pilsung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:03 pm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/ju ... l-collapse

Whatever government emerges from Greece's make or break ballot on Sunday, it will take over a country on the edge of financial collapse.

The telltale signs are too obvious to ignore: the early morning queues outside banks, the banner headlines predicting economic disaster, the businesses shuttered and boarded up, the deals and projects put on hold.

"Absolutely nothing is moving either in the public or private sector," said a prominent Athenian lawyer who sits on the committee of a large foreign hedge fund. "No one wants to invest, or make any commitment in such uncertainty," she said. "They are all waiting to see what will happen after the election."

If the economy is all about psychology, then Greece is already fighting a lost war – even if the Athens stock exchange soared on Thursdayon secret polling data suggesting that a pro-European coalition, committed to punishing reforms, would win the election.

The country's main stock index closed a staggering 10.1% higher, with banking shares posting a collective 23.6% increase.

But the surprise development comes against a backdrop of devastation. Heightened talk of Athens's exit from the eurozone in recent months has not only led to credit lines drying up but has spurred ever greater numbers of panic-stricken citizens to pull their savings from banks.

Up to €5bn (£4bn) is believed to have been withdrawn from local lenders in the past two weeks alone, according to media reports. Following inconclusive elections on 6 May, up to €700m was removed by depositors in a single day.

"Last week was especially bad," said an official at the Bank of Greece. "People were pouring into our branch on Syntagma Square and literally emptying their accounts," he said, referring to the capital's main square.


Before the debt crisis erupted in December 2009, the country's total household and corporate deposits stood at €238bn. Since then €72bn has made its way out of the system, with the Bank of Greece announcing that deposits stood at €165.9bn in April.

Much of the money is believed to be hidden in private homes, the result of Greeks fearing they will lose savings if Athens is forced to leave the single currency. But a great deal has also been whisked abroad, with stories of depositors travelling with suitcases stuffed with cash now legendary.

This week, it emerged that leading foreign lenders, including Deutsche Bank and Merrill Lynch, had dispatched delegations to Athens to lure private Greek depositors and companies.
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Egan Jones Cuts France from A- to BBB+

Postby Pilsung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:06 pm

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/egan-jone ... france-bbb

The next Egan Who target is France, which was just cut from A- to BBB+. EURUSD tumbles, unlike what happens when Moody's or S&P downgrades.

Summary text:

French Republic: EJR rates at BBB+ (Neg.) (S&P: AA+) (223727Z FP)

Synopsis: For the most part, over the past 18 months France has been exempted from the rise in funding costs. However, as the crisis evolves, we expect that France will be pressured. The deterioration in France's credit metrics combined with the needed supported for France's banks are likely to pressure the country. A major catalyst is likely to be charges for the weakened periphery countries. Hollande will be under pressure to keep campaign promises which will ultimately hurt credit quality.
delegations to Athens to lure private Greek depositors and companies.
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Election Apocalypse: Greeks Stock Up on Canned Food

Postby Pilsung » Thu Jun 14, 2012 10:11 pm

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/election-ap ... 6395368597

NERVOUS Greeks are withdrawing up to 800 million euros ($1.01 billion) a day and stocking up on canned food as they fear the country will be forced to leave the eurozone after this Sunday's election.

Greek retailers say consumers are stocking up on non-perishable foods like pasta and canned goods.

Greek citizens fear the ramifications of a return to the country’s previous currency, the drachma, if the radical left-wing party and strong election contender SYRIZA wins this weekend.

Bankers said daily withdrawals from the major banks were hitting €500-€800 million ($631.8 million-$1.01 billion), Reuters reported.

Meanwhile, retailers say consumers are stocking up on non-perishable foods like pasta and canned goods.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Bishop Drake » Thu Jun 14, 2012 11:47 pm

I think this story does a pretty good job of explaining what is at stake with the whole Greek election debacle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-18436777


phil_in_cs wrote:relevant http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2007/ ... ite-train/


This brings to mind all of the posts from FerFal. And in fact I would highly suggest to anyone really wondering how to prep for an economic meltdown to read up on his stuff as I think it is fairly relevant to the issues at hand.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Blacksmith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:21 am

This brings to mind all of the posts from FerFal. And in fact I would highly suggest to anyone really wondering how to prep for an economic meltdown to read up on his stuff as I think it is fairly relevant to the issues at hand.


Agreed. I recall reading his stuff a few years ago.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:39 am

Blacksmith wrote:
This brings to mind all of the posts from FerFal. And in fact I would highly suggest to anyone really wondering how to prep for an economic meltdown to read up on his stuff as I think it is fairly relevant to the issues at hand.


Agreed. I recall reading his stuff a few years ago.

He is/was a member here.

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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Blacksmith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 8:59 am

Another economist saying we are getting closer to the "Lehman Moment"

"It's not clear who's going to blink at this point. My guess is that, in the end, there will be a bit of blinking on both sides. This is the financial equivalent of the Cuban Missile Crisis. And the missile is really a bank run, which ultimately even the Germans can't be completely immune to. Not that there will ever be a run on German banks, but the effects of a bank run right across Southern Europe are going to be felt by the economy. German policymakers know that; they're just having to say one thing to their own voters and another thing privately to other European leaders."


"In the end, the central banks can't do this on their own. And I think for the markets to assume that this can be fixed by yet another round of quantitative easing or whatever you want to call it—LTRO—I think that's not realistic, because this is no longer just about liquidity. It's about the solvency of governments, the solvency of banks."


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/the-fina ... z1xs0zKhyA


No one wants it. It is a little bit of grand standing to compare it to the CMC. That was actually really close to the REAL end of the world and not just the change of financial fortunes for many. But as I mentioned earlier getting these leaders to work out all their issues is going to be a tough nut to crack.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 10:16 am

An interesting article by the AP on a "Greexit". I do not agree with all of it but I do agree that the if/then logic is quite possible and plausible.


http://www.nola.com/business/index.ssf/ ... cart_river

How a Greek exit from euro might affect world economy
Published: Friday, June 15, 2012, 7:18 AM
By The Associated Press
The unthinkable suddenly looks possible. Bankers, governments and investors are starting to prepare for Greece to stop using the euro as its currency, a move that could spread turmoil throughout the global financial system. The worst-case scenario envisions governments defaulting on their debts, a run on European banks and a worldwide credit crunch reminiscent of the financial crisis in the fall of 2008.

Petros Karadjias, The Associated Press
Tourists swim in a swimming pool on the roof of a hotel as the ancient Acropolis hill is seen in the background, in central Athens, on Friday. Tourism and shipping are among the pillars Greek economy. Both are under strain amid speculation about whether Greece will have to abandon the euro in a chaotic and possibly economically debilitating exit.
A Greek election on Sunday will go a long way toward determining whether it happens. Syriza, a party opposed to the restrictions placed on Greece in exchange for a bailout from European neighbors, could do well.
In the meantime, banks and investors have sketched out the ripple effects if Greek were to leave the euro. They think the path of a full-blown crisis would start in Greece, quickly move to the rest of Europe and then hit the U.S. Stocks and oil would plunge, the euro would sink against the U.S. dollar, and big banks would uncover losses on complex trades.
ACT I
What would Greece's exit look like? In the worst-case scenario, it starts off messy.
The government resurrects the Greek currency, the drachma, and says each drachma equals one euro. But currency markets would treat it differently. Banks' foreign-exchange experts expect the drachma would plunge to half the value of the euro soon after its debut.
For Greeks, that would likely mean surging inflation -- 35 percent in the first year, according to some estimates. The country is a net importer, and would have to pay more for oil, medical equipment and anything else coming from abroad.
The Greek central bank would also need to print more drachmas once the country got locked out of lending markets, says Athanasios Vamvakidis, foreign exchange strategist at Bank of America-Merrill Lynch in London.
Greece's government and banks currently survive on international aid. "Without access to markets, they have to print money," he says.
That's one reason analysts say the switch to a drachma would lead the country to default on its government debt, possibly triggering losses for the European Central Bank and other international lenders.
Most assume foreign banks would have to write off loans to Greek businesses, too. Why would Greeks pay off foreign debts that effectively double when the drachma drops by half?
Say a small shop owner in Athens has a €50,000 business loan from a French bank. She also has €50,000 in savings in a Greek bank. The Greek government turns her savings into 50,000 drachma.
If the new currency fell by 50 percent to the euro as expected, her savings would suddenly be worth €25,000. But she would still owe €50,000 to the French bank.
European banks would take a direct blow. They've managed to shed much of their Greek debt but still held $65 billion, mainly in loans to Greek corporations, at the end of last year, according to an analysis by Nomura, a financial services company. French banks have the most to lose.
ACT II
Here's where things get scary.
The European Central Bank and European Union would have to persuade bond investors that they will keep Portugal, Spain and Italy from following Greece out the door. Otherwise borrowing costs for those countries would shoot higher.
"If they fail to reassure bond investors, all of the nightmare scenarios come into play," says Robert Shapiro, a former U.S. undersecretary of commerce in the Clinton administration.
Experts agree that the so-called firewall built to stop the crisis from spreading needs more firepower.
Much of the €248 billion ($310 billion) left in the European Financial Stability Facility, one European bailout fund, was pledged by the same countries that may wind up needing it, Vamvakidis says.
There's also a European Stability Mechanism that's supposed to be up and running next month, but Germany has yet to sign off on it.
A fast-spreading crisis is known in financial circles as contagion -- a term borrowed from medicine and familiar to anyone who has watched a disaster movie about killer viruses on the loose.
"It's like a disease that spreads on contact," says Mark Blythe, professor of international political economy at Brown University.
The bond market, where banks, traders and governments cross paths, provides the setting. If Greece dropped the euro, traders would become more suspicious of Spain, Portugal and Italy and sell those countries' government bonds, pushing their prices down and driving their interest rates up.
Higher borrowing costs squeeze those countries' budgets and push them deeper into recession. Plunging bond prices imperil Europe's already troubled banks, which stockpiled government bonds when they were considered safe.
At this point, the risk would be high for a run on banks throughout Europe. People would stampede to their banks to withdraw what they can. Analysts and investors say that's the biggest fear.
People in Spain, for example, have already seen what's happened in Greece and have started pulling euros out of their accounts in fear the country will switch back to cheaper pesetas.
"People see their banks in trouble," Shapiro says.
In less frantic times, the government would come to the rescue with cash or take over the banks. European countries have already committed to lend up to $125 billion to Spain's banks to help save them.
But all this is happening in the middle of a government debt crisis, and if the crisis gets worse, the Spanish or Italian governments couldn't borrow enough cash from investors to save the day.
"They can't afford to guarantee deposits or money market balances," Shapiro says. "They don't have the ability to borrow internationally from bond markets. Where are they going to get the funds?"
From here, the crisis could easily snowball: Banks could fail, the surviving banks could stop lending to each other, and a credit freeze could shut down Europe as assuredly as a blizzard did last winter.
One way to stem the contagion would be to create so-called eurobonds -- bonds backed by all 17 euro countries. They could be sold to raise money for troubled European governments.
Germany, which has the strongest economy of the euro countries, has slowly warmed to the idea but wants weak governments to fix their finances first. "Germany's strength is not infinite," Chancellor Angela Merkel said Thursday.
The International Monetary Fund would probably pitch in. Peter Tchir, who runs TF Market Advisors, worries that the IMF may take a loss on the roughly $28 billion it has already loaned to Greece.
Cash-strapped European governments should be able to turn to the IMF for help, but the IMF's money comes from its 188 member countries. Tchir says that the U.S. and other countries may balk if the IMF asks for help supporting Europe.
"People are happy to put money in if they think they won't lose it," Tchir says. "In this case, the IMF loses money, then everybody gets scared."
ACT III
A full-blown crisis would cross the Atlantic through the dense web of contracts, loans and other financial transactions that tie European banks to those in the U.S., experts say.
Blythe, the professor at Brown, believes credit default swaps, the complex financial instruments made infamous by the 2008 financial crisis, would provide the path.
The swaps were created as a sort of insurance for loans. After lending money to a business or government, investors take out insurance on the loan. If the borrower runs into trouble and can't pay -- say, the government of Spain defaults -- the banks that sold the insurance cover the loss.
A $2 billion trading loss that JPMorgan Chase revealed in May, traced to a hedge against the Europe crisis, shows just how easy it is for even the safest and savviest of banks to slip up.
And it doesn't even take a default for a credit default swap to go bad.
If traders think other countries will follow Greece, they'll drive up borrowing rates by selling government bonds, which also pushes up the cost of insuring their debt. That's similar to how your neighborhood insurance agent handles a teenage driver.
In the derivatives market, where credit default swaps are traded, there's a twist. When markets treat Spain like a bad credit risk, those who took out insurance on Spanish debt to protect against a default can force the banks that sold the insurance to prove they can make good on the claim.
To do that, banks cash out something else -- U.S. government debt, gold, or anything easy to sell. In normal times, it's no big deal. In a crisis, it can lead to a cascade of selling, spreading trouble from one market to another.
Another problem: It's not clear how much U.S. banks have at risk to Europe through credit default swaps, because regulations let banks keep that information a secret.
"You could have American banks up to their necks in CDS liabilities," Blythe says. "We don't even know."
There's a wide variety of other paths the turmoil could take into the U.S.
Money market mutual funds, which hold more than $2.5 trillion, have an estimated 15 percent of their investments in Europe. European banks are also large buyers of U.S. mortgage bonds. If they're forced to sell them, mortgage rates could jump, imperiling the U.S. housing market. Frightened banks might also pull the credit lines companies depend on for global trade.
So, what's the good news? It's hard to find anybody who believes the crisis will get that far.
The bankers planning for a Greek exit say they think European leaders will get scared into action. The Federal Reserve and other central banks learned from the financial crisis in 2008, they believe, and will jump in to stop the nightmare scenario from unfolding.
Just in case the worst comes to pass, analysts at Barclay's have attempted to estimate the fallout. They compare it to the days after the investment bank Lehman Brothers collapsed in September 2008. This time, they project that oil prices would fall to $50, stock markets outside of Europe would plunge 30 percent, and the dollar would soar to trade nearly even with the euro.
Blythe is skeptical that it will get this bad, because he hopes the previous financial crisis has left governments and central banks prepared.
However the Greek story ends, Blythe believes it's bound to be ugly. Putting 17 countries together to share a common currency worked well when Europe prospered. Now that they're struggling, "all the design flaws are becoming apparent," he says. Every solution that's supposed to fix a problem creates another problem.
The proposed $125 billion loan to save Spanish banks, for instance, adds to the debt burden of Spain and other troubled European countries, which sent their borrowing costs higher and put a tighter squeeze on their budgets.
"The euro itself," Blythe says, "is a bloody doomsday machine."
Matthew Craft, Associated Press
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby TacAir » Fri Jun 15, 2012 1:06 pm

So -

Will the drachma become the new version of the Ruble (Roble)? That is to say, an internal currency. Accepted only in-country and worthless outside?

In that case, will loans need to be secured in hard goods? (PM, commodities, etc)

I can see where a capital drought in Greece could further destabilize the area and trigger mass migrations - or at least attempts to flee.

Where we had 'boat people" in the mid-70s, will we see a repeat in "Euro people" - folks that flee to the New World or more stable environs like Germany?
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby liberty45 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:28 pm

A little bright light in all of this is that the Greeks are starting their own bartering system for goods and services.

In Greece’s On Going Financial Collapse Bartering Emerges In Greek Towns
http://blog.emergencyoutdoors.com/in-gr ... eek-towns/
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Blacksmith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:10 pm

TacAir wrote:So -

Will the drachma become the new version of the Ruble (Roble)? That is to say, an internal currency. Accepted only in-country and worthless outside?

In that case, will loans need to be secured in hard goods? (PM, commodities, etc)

I can see where a capital drought in Greece could further destabilize the area and trigger mass migrations - or at least attempts to flee.

Where we had 'boat people" in the mid-70s, will we see a repeat in "Euro people" - folks that flee to the New World or more stable environs like Germany?


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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:13 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Magic eight ball says: "Ask again Later"


That is the same tool JP Morgan/Chase used to set their hedge.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Kommander » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:17 pm

raptor wrote:
Blacksmith wrote:Magic eight ball says: "Ask again Later"


That is the same tool JP Morgan/Chase used to set their hedge.


Does that mean that we can now refer to magic eight balls as "professional grade investment tools?"
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby tookieblueeyes » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:18 pm

OK FIRST OF ALL: Up until a year ago I was so busy living my own life and having my own fun to be paying attention to the rest of the world. It is only in the last year that I have become aware of the world around me, so to speak.

I have read and skimmed through this entire thread and still haven't come up with the answer to my own pressing question.

Now here is my querry: HOW MANY COUNTRIES are currently in financial crisis? Total? As of RIGHT NOW 6/15/12?
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby SlobberToofTigger » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:23 pm

tookieblueeyes wrote: HOW MANY COUNTRIES are currently in financial crisis? Total? As of RIGHT NOW 6/15/12?

Because of the interconnectedness of the world economy all of them. The issue is that after Greece there are a bunch more ready to be put under the spot light including the US and the UK.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Florida_Tony » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:36 pm

tookieblueeyes wrote:Now here is my querry: HOW MANY COUNTRIES are currently in financial crisis? Total? As of RIGHT NOW 6/15/12?
Well, all of them really. Remember that, for the first time in history, we have fiat money -- the US Dollar -- as a global reserve currency. So if the US is in crisis (um...the situation in Greece is nothing compared to Spain, which is nothing compared to the US), then the whole world is in crisis. If the dollar collapses, the global reserve currency collapses, and every country in the world will be affected.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Blacksmith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:49 pm

SlobberToofTigger wrote:
tookieblueeyes wrote: HOW MANY COUNTRIES are currently in financial crisis? Total? As of RIGHT NOW 6/15/12?

Because of the interconnectedness of the world economy all of them. The issue is that after Greece there are a bunch more ready to be put under the spot light including the US and the UK.


no, no there are few that are good. Let's See....

North Korea. Of course large parts of their population are starving to death but that is neither here nor there.... They are untouched by the financial crisis. Having no money helps.

Malaysia. Doing well economically. Strong economy. Lots of things going right there all at once. High standard of living for most too.

Armenia- Isolationist economy. Not a strong economy but not effected much by the crisis.

Thailand- Strong economy with high reserves.

There may be a few others. Malaysia and Thailand (and a few others) learned from the Asian Financial Crisis of the 90s and made some adjustments to their economies back then.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:57 pm

tookieblueeyes wrote:Now here is my querry: HOW MANY COUNTRIES are currently in financial crisis? Total? As of RIGHT NOW 6/15/12?


It really depends upon your definition of crisis.

BTW Fiat currencies are irrelevant in this situation. Yes I know... this allows the unlimited printing of money but the problem here is the level of debt.

Most of the EU, Japan and the US have way too much debt.

That said the global economy faces risks but not all countries are in crisis.
Canada, Australia and Switzerland for instance have very strong and stable currencies. The BRIC nations also have economies that not as debt heavy as the EU and the US. Even Germany if it were not in the middle of the euro mess would be in decent shape.

So IMO the countries with significant debt are in trouble. Greece is in crisis. Spain, Italy, Portugal are approaching the the crisis. Ireland has accepted its austerity measure and while not in crisis is in misery with high unemployment and a large number of its citizens leaving to other locations.

The US may actually in a perverse way be helped by this crisis. Recent reports are that foreigners are buying up US real estate, the US t-bill yield is dropping indicating huge inflows of foreign capital to the USD.

Now do not get me wrong the US has way too much debt and out of control spending. That said with its borrowing costs are at historic lows this may be an opportunity for the US to lock in low interest rates and deal with our own fiscal problems. Do not write off the USD quite yet.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Florida_Tony » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:22 pm

Blacksmith, do you really think that Malaysia and Armenia would be untouched if the dollar collapsed?

Raptor, I don't think that fiat currencies are irrelevant. You said that the level of debt is the problem (and I agree), but how could that level of debt have been reached without the help of fiat currencies?
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby Blacksmith » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:56 pm

Florida_Tony wrote:Blacksmith, do you really think that Malaysia and Armenia would be untouched if the dollar collapsed?


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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:03 pm

Florida_Tony wrote:Raptor, I don't think that fiat currencies are irrelevant. You said that the level of debt is the problem (and I agree), but how could that level of debt have been reached without the help of fiat currencies?


Fiat currencies are not causing this problem. Deficit spending is causing the problem. Deficit spending is quite possible even with NON fiat currencies.

I would point out that currency crises can occur even with the gold standard in place. See the Panic of 1857. This thread is not the place for pro/con of fiat currency/gold standard.
Last edited by raptor on Sat Jun 16, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby WhoShotJR » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:06 pm

Debt is an extension of credit, unrelated to whether or not a country's currency is fiat or backed by one, or a basket of, commodities. What we have is an income to expense ratio problem. Or more accurately millions of piss poor decisions that keep accumulating in a bigger and bigger pile. Fiat, or not, is not the issue.
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Re: Global Debt Time Bomb explodes soon

Postby raptor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:10 pm

WhoShotJR wrote: What we have is an income to expense ratio problem.


Exactly! And well said.
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