Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

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Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by azombieattack » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:42 pm

Wasent even sure were to post this since it seems stupid to me but about 4 of my employees disagree with me on this. We were discussing side arms, and I mentioned that pistol....name escapes me now...its a revolver that can shoot eithe 45.cal bullets or 410 shells....this lead to an arguement on the difference between being knocked down and falling down.

I said withen 50 feet the 410 shell would likely knock a zombie down....then they were like oh...no... the zombie would probably fall down but not be knocked down...whats the difference.


My argument was- Knocked down... hitting the ground by an outside force

fall down- hitting the ground do to lack of dexterity or tripping, no outside force is required.


To me it seems simple, am I wrong?
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by LowKey » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:04 am

azombieattack wrote:Wasent even sure were to post this since it seems stupid to me but about 4 of my employees disagree with me on this. We were discussing side arms, and I mentioned that pistol....name escapes me now...its a revolver that can shoot eithe 45.cal bullets or 410 shells....this lead to an arguement on the difference between being knocked down and falling down.

I said withen 50 feet the 410 shell would likely knock a zombie down....then they were like oh...no... the zombie would probably fall down but not be knocked down...whats the difference.


My argument was- Knocked down... hitting the ground by an outside force

fall down- hitting the ground do to lack of dexterity or tripping, no outside force is required.


To me it seems simple, am I wrong?
There is no such thing as "knockdown" resulting from a gunshot wound.
Remember, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
How this applies to a shooting? If the round had enough energy to knock down it's target the recoil of firing that same round (the opposite reaction) would have knocked down the shooter.
So, no. It's not going to knock the target down. Any collapse is going to be the result of internal damage suffered by the target (blood loss, shock, CNS disconnect).
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by TDW586 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:05 am

Lowkey FTW.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Wildeman_13 » Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:19 am

LowKey wrote:
azombieattack wrote:Wasent even sure were to post this since it seems stupid to me but about 4 of my employees disagree with me on this. We were discussing side arms, and I mentioned that pistol....name escapes me now...its a revolver that can shoot eithe 45.cal bullets or 410 shells....this lead to an arguement on the difference between being knocked down and falling down.

I said withen 50 feet the 410 shell would likely knock a zombie down....then they were like oh...no... the zombie would probably fall down but not be knocked down...whats the difference.


My argument was- Knocked down... hitting the ground by an outside force

fall down- hitting the ground do to lack of dexterity or tripping, no outside force is required.


To me it seems simple, am I wrong?
There is no such thing as "knockdown" resulting from a gunshot wound.
Remember, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".
How this applies to a shooting? If the round had enough energy to knock down it's target the recoil of firing that same round (the opposite reaction) would have knocked down the shooter.
So, no. It's not going to knock the target down. Any collapse is going to be the result of internal damage suffered by the target (blood loss, shock, CNS disconnect).
You are dead on here. Mythbusters pretty much proved this one when they shot a pig with a shotgun and the impact barely knocked it off the stand.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by dukenobles » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:30 pm

I wouldnt suggest using Mythbusters as a scientific resource. Also, I wasn't quite satisfied with their experiment. I know that the pig didn't get knocked off the stand. It was hanging from a chain and was gutted. It was a big hollow punching bag full of air. A sledgehammer wouldn't have knocked it down.

Go shoot a 45LC or 44Mag one handed while standing loose, flat footed, and arms bent. Ever seen anybody get knocked on their ass by a handgun round? I have.

knockdown does exist. just not the knockdown people expect. if knockdown didn't exist to SOME degree, why would tin cans and steel targets go flying when shot? just pull back the hide on a dead deer and you'll see the where hydrostatic pressure has caused massive bruising BEFORE the bullet broke the skin.

For knockdown of some importance, I'm referring to large bore, soft material calibers, not many of today's harder, smaller, faster round. A .223 will not knock down much, but it'll punch through steel while my 45s will knock the steel down, but barely dent it.

LowKey stated some VERY good, solid science, but there are many factors that still need to be considered. The reason we don't get knocked down by our own firearms is that the gun weighs much more than the bullet and the bullet is constantly accelerating as it travels through the barrel. Black powder burns at a fairly constant rate, not at once. As it burns, the internal pressure's rise, pushing the bullet along the barrel.

Its a rising, traveling force that follows the path of least resistance. Barrel too long,.. it jams up. Barrel too short,.. get ready for recoil and gun buck. Recoil is small percentage of the force generated by firearms. Stance, grip, mechanical positioning, cushioning forces, force redirection and various other factors act upon a shooter, helping to keep recoil at a minimum.

Will a handgun round pick somebody off their feet and send them tumbling back? no, thats hollywood. Will a large bore, preferably a soft material hollowpoint handgun round knock somebody down, as in, off their feet? Yes. Just don't expect it to look any different than somebody losing their balance. Most rounds generate just so much speed/penetration that the knockdown factor is negligible.

And as to that 45LC/.410 handgun. Thats probably the Taurus Judge. Probably a fun gun to have. Great for snakes. I wouldn't suggest using a .410 load on zombies. With the short barrel on that gun and the nature of the shotshell load, I doubt it would inflict much damage past the 10 yard mark. And 15 yards might be pushing it. Of course, up close a judge loaded with 00 buckshot shells and 45LC rounds would probably be VERY effective on a small number of zombies moving slow. Smaller shotshell load could also be effective and do a great job of blinding any attacker. Everybody I know that bought a judge uses it as their "car gun". Something to keep loaded and sitting in the lap while driving in case of carjacking.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by azombieattack » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:52 pm

dukenobles wrote:I wouldnt suggest using Mythbusters as a scientific resource. Also, I wasn't quite satisfied with their experiment. I know that the pig didn't get knocked off the stand. It was hanging from a chain and was gutted. It was a big hollow punching bag full of air. A sledgehammer wouldn't have knocked it down.

Go shoot a 45LC or 44Mag one handed while standing loose, flat footed, and arms bent. Ever seen anybody get knocked on their ass by a handgun round? I have.

knockdown does exist. just not the knockdown people expect. if knockdown didn't exist to SOME degree, why would tin cans and steel targets go flying when shot? just pull back the hide on a dead deer and you'll see the where hydrostatic pressure has caused massive bruising BEFORE the bullet broke the skin.

For knockdown of some importance, I'm referring to large bore, soft material calibers, not many of today's harder, smaller, faster round. A .223 will not knock down much, but it'll punch through steel while my 45s will knock the steel down, but barely dent it.

LowKey stated some VERY good, solid science, but there are many factors that still need to be considered. The reason we don't get knocked down by our own firearms is that the gun weighs much more than the bullet and the bullet is constantly accelerating as it travels through the barrel. Black powder burns at a fairly constant rate, not at once. As it burns, the internal pressure's rise, pushing the bullet along the barrel.

Its a rising, traveling force that follows the path of least resistance. Barrel too long,.. it jams up. Barrel too short,.. get ready for recoil and gun buck. Recoil is small percentage of the force generated by firearms. Stance, grip, mechanical positioning, cushioning forces, force redirection and various other factors act upon a shooter, helping to keep recoil at a minimum.

Will a handgun round pick somebody off their feet and send them tumbling back? no, thats hollywood. Will a large bore, preferably a soft material hollowpoint handgun round knock somebody down, as in, off their feet? Yes. Just don't expect it to look any different than somebody losing their balance. Most rounds generate just so much speed/penetration that the knockdown factor is negligible.

And as to that 45LC/.410 handgun. Thats probably the Taurus Judge. Probably a fun gun to have. Great for snakes. I wouldn't suggest using a .410 load on zombies. With the short barrel on that gun and the nature of the shotshell load, I doubt it would inflict much damage past the 10 yard mark. And 15 yards might be pushing it. Of course, up close a judge loaded with 00 buckshot shells and 45LC rounds would probably be VERY effective on a small number of zombies moving slow. Smaller shotshell load could also be effective and do a great job of blinding any attacker. Everybody I know that bought a judge uses it as their "car gun". Something to keep loaded and sitting in the lap while driving in case of carjacking.
I saw the same mythbusters episode... I totally agree with everything you said here infact going to show your reply to them, thank you.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by mpi » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:59 pm

having been both shot and shooter, as well as having been present for several shootings i'd say no knockdowns! i wasn't knocked down with a solid thigh hit, pain and bleeding, but no knockdown.

I can see a zed being nudged off balance enough by a shot or two to fall down, but not an adult size zed knockdown.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by troll1000 » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:46 pm

i'm pretty sure that with a large enough round you'd have definite knockdown. just imagine being hit with a .50 round from a barret sniper rifle or a ma duece. for that matter imagine what a 20 mm round would do to a body. i say knockdown is no myth.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Wildeman_13 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:10 am

Speaking from first hand experience. Shooting a large watermelon with a 3" magnum slug from a Mossberg 12 gauge. The melon moved a total of 4 inches... mostly from rolling over after impact. Physics states that all reactions will be equal and opposite. For enough force to knock you completely off your feet would require enough energy to cause the shooter to also be knocked off their feet (minus energy from the energy required to also move the gun). I completely agree that there is an energy transfer. But I disagree that it is enough to "knock down" a normal person standing still on impact. Knock down in reality occurs when the impact knocks you off balance or causes a tramatic shock that causes you to fall over. It is NOT the energy from the bullet doing this. See also getting shot while wearing a bullet proof vest, specifically where they are shot at point blank range.

Mythbusters may not get it right all the time. But they get it right enough of the time for what they are attempting to reproduce.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by jamoni » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:36 pm

azombieattacks, it seems to me you might be trolling.
Why else would you ask this question, and then ignore all advice except for that which agrees with your initial stated prejudice?
Lowkey has the correct answer, as does mythbusters, as does anyone who has ever shot a gun and not been "knocked down".
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Lodewijk » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:28 pm

Think of it this way - why do squirrels simply out of a tree when you hit them with #6?

I mean, if a shotgun blast can punch someone over, why doesn't it punt squirrels like a football?

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by MrMendigo » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:27 pm

Ditto to everyone above, but if I may add something else to consider when discussing this subject. Mass–energy equivalence is as much an equation to consider as the theory of relativity when considering if a bullet can cause someone to be knocked off of their feet.

Let’s use my favorite twelve gauge for an example, I call him DB and when he fires 1oz slugs he generates about 52 pounds of force on my shoulder. However the rapidly accelerating slug exits the barrel at 1560 fps and results is kinetic energy equaling 2364 feet pound of energy (bullet weight in grains 1oz = 437.5 grains * by fps squared / 450400); sure sounds like it would knock someone right off their feet.

Alas, one must first figure in sectional density of the bullet; the force of the bullet is concentrated in an area of less than a square inch this is a main reason the force of the bullet is exponentially increased.

Now let’s imagine that the slug DB fired strikes a plate that evenly distributes the force of the impact over a 1 sq ft surface, the result would be dissolution of the force by a factor of 144 or 16.4 pounds per square inch. Now that doesn’t seem nearly enough to knock someone off there feet does it?

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Shadowsbane » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:59 pm

MrMendigo wrote:Ditto to everyone above, but if I may add something else to consider when discussing this subject. Mass–energy equivalence is as much an equation to consider as the theory of relativity when considering if a bullet can cause someone to be knocked off of their feet.

Let’s use my favorite twelve gauge for an example, I call him DB and when he fires 1oz slugs he generates about 52 pounds of force on my shoulder. However the rapidly accelerating slug exits the barrel at 1560 fps and results is kinetic energy equaling 2364 feet pound of energy (bullet weight in grains 1oz = 437.5 grains * by fps squared / 450400); sure sounds like it would knock someone right off their feet.

Alas, one must first figure in sectional density of the bullet; the force of the bullet is concentrated in an area of less than a square inch this is a main reason the force of the bullet is exponentially increased.

Now let’s imagine that the slug DB fired strikes a plate that evenly distributes the force of the impact over a 1 sq ft surface, the result would be dissolution of the force by a factor of 144 or 16.4 pounds per square inch. Now that doesn’t seem nearly enough to knock someone off there feet does it?
There you have it folks. Same reason you can catch a baseball going 50 miles an hour, but not a lawn dart.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by bae » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:14 pm

Momentum is conserved. It's not just a good idea, it's the law.

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by JTNieman » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:25 pm

Thanks for reopening this, Jamoni... I was a little peaved that you closed it. :\

I don't care what Mythbusters thinks. Saying "the shooter isn't knocked down, so the target can't be knocked down" is over simplification and incorrect.

You ever shoot a deer and have it go tumbling?

There's plenty enough energy to knock a target down. Just because you don't get knocked down does not mean that the energy is not there. You simply anticipated the energy being imparted onto your body, and using your natural body control, flexed your muscles to maintain rigidity in such a way that the energy was transferred to the ground. However, the target is not anticipating this, and is not standing firm, posed like a football linebacker ready for impact.

I don't care if you don't -think- the science is there. It happens. Simple fact. It happens. You can't simply ignore that because you're not sure why it happens. It does, though. Not a myth.

Mythbusters sucks. It's ENTERTAINMENT. It's not reliable authority. They are extremely scientific in spirit, but not exactly perfect in execution for many reasons, like feasibility, budget, etc.

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Shadowsbane » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:31 pm

But the question is that is it the force of the bullet causing the knock down or some other factor?

A running deer that is shot has many other variables that must be taken into account. Least of which is where were they shot.

You blow a hole through a deers shoulder just right, it won't support any weight for instance, so the deer will come tumbling down pretty quickly. Doesn't mean the bullet did it.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by TheLastRifleMan » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:09 pm

Shadowsbane wrote: You blow a hole through a deers shoulder just right, it won't support any weight for instance, so the deer will come tumbling down pretty quickly. Doesn't mean the bullet did it.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by misanthropist » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:31 pm

JamesCannon wrote:Thanks for reopening this, Jamoni... I was a little peaved that you closed it. :\

I don't care what Mythbusters thinks. Saying "the shooter isn't knocked down, so the target can't be knocked down" is over simplification and incorrect.

You ever shoot a deer and have it go tumbling?

There's plenty enough energy to knock a target down. Just because you don't get knocked down does not mean that the energy is not there. You simply anticipated the energy being imparted onto your body, and using your natural body control, flexed your muscles to maintain rigidity in such a way that the energy was transferred to the ground. However, the target is not anticipating this, and is not standing firm, posed like a football linebacker ready for impact.

I don't care if you don't -think- the science is there. It happens. Simple fact. It happens. You can't simply ignore that because you're not sure why it happens. It does, though. Not a myth.

Mythbusters sucks. It's ENTERTAINMENT. It's not reliable authority. They are extremely scientific in spirit, but not exactly perfect in execution for many reasons, like feasibility, budget, etc.
Dude, if you would get knocked down by your guns if you weren't leaning in to them, you have got to be a dwarf ballerina. I was out burning through a few hundred rounds of x39 today, and there isn't even vaguely close to the amount of energy required to knock me over, prepared or not. Maybe if I were balanced on the tip of a pole...but in that case a softball thrown at my torso might knock me off balance, and I assume we're discussing some phenomenon other than the tiny amount of kinetic energy required to knock a carefully balanced but inherently unstable object over.

At any rate it's easy to test...

1)Fill a five gallon bucket with sand.

2) Shoot the bucket with whatever gun interests you.

3) Note the fact that the bucket hardly moved at all despite absorbing all the energy from the bullet.

4) Log back in to ZS.

5) Apologize for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

6) You're done!
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by bae » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:54 pm

Here's what happens when you shoot someone with a rifle who is wearing a vest, about the 2 minute mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, let's look at a 900 grain .600 Nitro Express bullet, moving at 2050 feet/sec, impacting a 200 pound man, and let's say the bullet doesn't go through-and-through, but is entirely retained in the body, so that we have a perfectly inelastic collision:

momentum: 900 gr * 2050 feet/sec = 263 pound-ft/second

That's the same momentum of the man+bullet system after collision, which now masses 200.128571 pounds. So the velocity of the man+bullet will be 1.317 feet/second, backwards, assuming the man is on ice, and doesn't lose his balance. That's not really much of a shove, from a .600 Nitro Express...

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Bunsen » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:00 pm

Whoo boy, where to start with this thread... Let's try this:

Momentum is what knocks things over. Not energy, not force, not pressure. In fact, it'd be a good idea for everybody to make sure they understand what those terms mean in physics. If it's been a few years since your last physics course, take a minute with wikipedia.

Momentum is conserved, so that if your gun-plus-bullet system has no momentum before you pull the trigger (i.e. it's not moving) then it has no momentum after you pull the trigger. That means that whatever momentum the bullet carries out the muzzle is canceled by the equal (in strength) and opposite (in direction) momentum of the gun, which will immediately be transferred into your shoulder. When the bullet strikes its target, and we'll make the assumption that it doesn't exit, it transfers that same momentum into the target. In the end, you and the target get pushed exactly has hard, and no amount of cushioning changes that. The reason that the target dies and you don't comes down to kinetic energy, but we'll save that for the next class.

The fact that you're expecting recoil does make some difference, but most people can fire most guns without getting knocked over even if they're not in a proper stance. The reason animals fall when shot has far more to do with the fact that having a significant portion of your skeleton, musculature, and/or internal organs suddenly get smashed into non-functional goo will throw anybody off their stride.

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Liff » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:11 pm

Lowkey FTW.
dukenobles wrote:knockdown does exist. just not the knockdown people expect. if knockdown didn't exist to SOME degree, why would tin cans and steel targets go flying when shot?
Because the tin can and steel targets weigh less than I do?

Equal and opposite means for the same weight (resistance to inertia) object. Aluminum cans have less resistance to inertia than I do.
misanthropist wrote:At any rate it's easy to test...

1)Fill a five gallon bucket with sand.

2) Shoot the bucket with whatever gun interests you.

3) Note the fact that the bucket hardly moved at all despite absorbing all the energy from the bullet.

4) Log back in to ZS.

5) Apologize for not knowing what the hell you're talking about.

6) You're done!


Damn that was funny.

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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Fire » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:16 pm

have never been there in person for a shooting (fortunately) but for work have watched many videos of people being shot- in real world shootings there is no magic flying corpse phenomenon, for those who site the occasions where bodies do strange things, I would submit that that is the momentum of an already moving object effected by the impact of the bullet (sort of like a 90 pound akido black belt flipping a 220 pound attacker) physics wins every time, but the world is a very dynamic laboratory- another effect is the tendency of a body to spasm when shot- this is all out there to watch, and well documented, so sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but dont count on knocking anyone down with bullet....
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Kommander » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:18 pm

While I have never seen anyone get shot, I have seen someone knocked down by a gun. About 10 years ago a saw a 15 year old boy shoot a shotgun while holding the buttstock away from his shoulder. Knocked him right on his ass. Of course this really isn't a valid comparison to being shot, as the shotgun never did penetrate him. I do think that in a limited number of circumstances a sort of knockdown effect could be achieved, but I am unwilling to commit to any hypotheses without further testing.
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Re: Another office debate: Knocked down or falling down

Post by Black Mantis » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:56 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCzD5uhSViY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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