Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

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GunnyFreedom
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Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by GunnyFreedom » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:47 am

Recently, the Midland County sheriff's department raided a compound composed of Warren Jeff's polygamist sect in Midland TX. I don't know the details of the raid, and will not pass judgment on whether it should have happened or not. That is, in fact, irrelevant to us.

It is possible that in the event of a cataclysmic social collapse, Zombies could steal one of these M-113 APC's from our beloved and brave policemen, and come after us to feed on our brains. Therefore, I would like to examine these M-113's a little more closely.

PLEASE NOTE - IMPORTANT NOTE - attacking one of these M-113 vehicles while it is still in the possession of the police department and before it is stolen by Zombies is illegal, wrong, and a bad bad idea. Actual police have far more resources than a single M-113, and you will not survive your encounter. Repeat - you will not survive your encounter, furthermore it is illegal, and I strongly advise against such lunacy/stupidity. I am using the below photograph, ONLY because if a Zombie manages to steal an M-113, it will probably be one of these.

Below, is a picture of an M-113 APC used during the raid. This picture was actually taken during the raid itself:

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The point behind this post, was to do a little intelligence work on the vehicle itself. I blew the images up and compared it with other M-113 images available:

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You will note a difference in the forward seam. The top image was a Vietnam era M-113 showing the bolted on armor plate. The bottom image is the blowup of the Sheriff's M-113, which does not appear to have an armor plate. Since military M-113's are very highly protected, if we were to encounter a Zombie in a stolen APC, it will probably have been stolen from the police department. Police department M-113 tend to not have the bolt on armor plates.

The base armor of the M113 minus the additional plate, is 12 to 38 mm of 5083/5086 H32 Aluminum, and the A3 variant adds an internal spall liners.

The front rear and top armor thickness is 1.5"
The upper sides are 1.75", and the lower sides are 1.25"

Firing M2 AP 30-06 from a bolt action will penetrate .7" of steel armor plate. ( only .5" from a gas op Garand)

To the best of my ability researching, I find that 1.21" of H32 Aluminum has equivalent stopping power to 0.5" plate armor steel. If the ratio holds regarding gas op vs bolt op, then the M2 AP from a bolt action rifle should be able to penetrate 1.7" of H32 Aluminum.

This is right on the envelope of success/failure. Your penetration is about 50/50 in the upper half of the sides, if your rounds impact at precisely perpendicular to the target.

Now loading the M2 AP projectile into a .300 WSM cartridge on the other hand should defeat this armor without issue.
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Post by LittleTeapot » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:05 am

Zombies can't drive.

Maybe a better question with "raiders" or other bad guys stealing the APC?

You seem to have a good grasp of hi-powered rifles!



Edit: typo.
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Post by ImfromtheGovt » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:58 am

Zombies used to not be able to run either, but now they can! :lol: And I believe a Zombie drove in "Return of the Living Dead 2"... drove the Ambulance and Radio'd "SEND MORE PARAMEDICS"

I think "zombie" here refers to any Tango other than Military / LE that would have nefarious use for such a vehicle, and would be using it against you and yours. (I won't even get into the implication that M/LE might have nefarious uses for such a vehicle against you & yours, because this would not be the place :lol: and would surely get this thread locked, and that is not my intention)
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Post by LittleTeapot » Fri Apr 18, 2008 9:29 am

ImfromtheGovt wrote:Zombies used to not be able to run either, but now they can! And I believe a Zombie drove
in "Return of the Living Dead 2"... drove the Ambulance and Radio'd "SEND MORE PARAMEDICS"
Good point. I guess it depends on what canon of knowledge you use to define "zombies".

Personally, the "interactive-zombies" stretch my suspension-of-disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief: the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction,
even if they are fantastic or impossible.
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Post by Gundown » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:56 am

I put snips of phone cord in all of my hallow points. I'm pretty sure they'll stop anything.

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Post by UberMunchin » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:23 pm

Gundown wrote:I put snips of phone cord in all of my hallow points. I'm pretty sure they'll stop anything.
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Post by velojym » Fri Apr 18, 2008 12:25 pm

Gundown wrote:I put snips of phone cord in all of my hallow points. I'm pretty sure they'll stop anything.
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Post by crypto » Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:40 pm

While I'm not a big fan of Mosin-Nagant rifles, the extra punch of the 7.62x54R cartridge with AP projectiles is enough to get through 113's without the extra armor. It's the main reason why the 113 got the up-armor kits back in the day, because it turned out that RPK's could do damage to them.

Also, even if you don't penetrate, the spall will be moving fast enough to put the hurt on the occupants. You just have to hope the vehicle doesn't have a spall liner inside :D
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Post by KayGee » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:42 pm

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Post by Wolfe4086 » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:10 am

I'd use my Shart gun.
Or a Big Screen TV playing Uwe Boll films.
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Post by GunnyFreedom » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:55 pm

Well, I forget what it was called, but I remember a zombie series, I think it was 3 movies, but every episode they got smarter. I mean, don't get me wrong, it was B-movie after all. But one should always plan for the worst case scenario.
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Post by GunnyFreedom » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:58 pm

LittleTeapot wrote:
ImfromtheGovt wrote:Zombies used to not be able to run either, but now they can! And I believe a Zombie drove
in "Return of the Living Dead 2"... drove the Ambulance and Radio'd "SEND MORE PARAMEDICS"
Good point. I guess it depends on what canon of knowledge you use to define "zombies".

Personally, the "interactive-zombies" stretch my suspension-of-disbelief.

Suspension of disbelief: the willingness of a person to accept as true the premises of a work of fiction,
even if they are fantastic or impossible.
Well, I believe it's always best to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. that way you are ready for anything, and happy that it didn't turn out so bad rather than depressed because it was worse than expected.;-)
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Post by GunnyFreedom » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:03 pm

LittleTeapot wrote:Zombies can't drive.

Maybe a better question with "raiders" or other bad guys stealing the APC?

You seem to have a good grasp of hi-powered rifles!
It seems that when God handed out primary talents, He chose to give me a primary talent that would be all but useless outside of the military. Heh. Some stuff I have to really really work at, but for some screwball reason I seem to take up gunnery and ballistics like a fish to water. If I were an 'idiot savant' then guns and gun tech would be my savant. (hey, what'd I mean, "if"???)
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by LakotaJones » Sun May 25, 2008 10:23 pm

I heard people in the middle east know how to take care of things like "armored" personal carriers and shit...

If your so worried about all that, you should talk to them may haps?

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Re:

Post by gothamalleyviper » Mon May 26, 2008 2:26 am

GunnyFreedom wrote:It seems that when God handed out primary talents, He chose to give me a primary talent that would be all but useless outside of the military. Heh. Some stuff I have to really really work at, but for some screwball reason I seem to take up gunnery and ballistics like a fish to water. If I were an 'idiot savant' then guns and gun tech would be my savant. (hey, what'd I mean, "if"???)
Yeah the "if" also means your an idiot. I like how my friend calls me "talented and super bright, I wish I could retain that much information." Doesn't that sound better?
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Re: Re:

Post by GunnyFreedom » Wed May 28, 2008 4:32 am

gothamalleyviper wrote:
GunnyFreedom wrote:It seems that when God handed out primary talents, He chose to give me a primary talent that would be all but useless outside of the military. Heh. Some stuff I have to really really work at, but for some screwball reason I seem to take up gunnery and ballistics like a fish to water. If I were an 'idiot savant' then guns and gun tech would be my savant. (hey, what'd I mean, "if"???)
Yeah the "if" also means your an idiot. I like how my friend calls me "talented and super bright, I wish I could retain that much information." Doesn't that sound better?
keyboard commando bravery in play here. I could raise hell and swap insults...but why, exactly? As long as I am at 98% at 500 yards on iron sights, then I am confident in my abilities to deal with PAW combat. Idiocy notwithstanding. :)
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by Citizen Simon » Wed May 28, 2008 6:54 am

Sooo, the subject line is a question. Then in the first post there is no question asked, just mention of armor and rounds and boom sticks and which will work on what. Not really sure what kind of response was being sought after other than tongue in cheek discussion on how to defeat the armored vehicles of the police (ahem - 'stolen by zombies'). Even then, there were not only no thought provoking questions asked, there were no questions asked at all.

I'm not going to lie, just responding to up my post count because this thread is pretty much a small touch of fail. You wasted a few seconds of your life reading my bullshit though, which if you made it this far into the thread then you wasted a few mins of your life.

If I personally was trying to defeat an APC I would probably use a 20mm cannon personally, but that's just me.
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by Citizen Simon » Wed May 28, 2008 6:58 am

Doc Simon wrote:Sooo, the subject line is a question. Then in the first post there is no question asked, just mention of armor and rounds and boom sticks and which will work on what. Not really sure what kind of response was being sought after other than tongue in cheek discussion on how to defeat the armored vehicles of the police (ahem - 'stolen by zombies'). Even then, there were not only no thought provoking questions asked, there were no questions asked at all.

I'm not going to lie, just responding to up my post count because this thread is pretty much a small touch of fail. You wasted a few seconds of your life reading my bullshit though, which if you made it this far into the thread then you wasted a few mins of your life.

If I was trying to defeat an APC I would probably use a 20mm cannon personally, but that's just me.
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by Napalm{WmD} » Wed May 28, 2008 7:31 am

Doc Simon wrote:
Doc Simon wrote:Sooo, the subject line is a question. Then in the first post there is no question asked, just mention of armor and rounds and boom sticks and which will work on what. Not really sure what kind of response was being sought after other than tongue in cheek discussion on how to defeat the armored vehicles of the police (ahem - 'stolen by zombies'). Even then, there were not only no thought provoking questions asked, there were no questions asked at all.

I'm not going to lie, just responding to up my post count because this thread is pretty much a small touch of fail. You wasted a few seconds of your life reading my bullshit though, which if you made it this far into the thread then you wasted a few mins of your life.

If I was trying to defeat an APC I would probably use a 20mm cannon personally, but that's just me.
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by crypto » Wed May 28, 2008 10:44 am

Doc Simon wrote:Sooo, the subject line is a question. Then in the first post there is no question asked, just mention of armor and rounds and boom sticks and which will work on what. Not really sure what kind of response was being sought after other than tongue in cheek discussion on how to defeat the armored vehicles of the police (ahem - 'stolen by zombies'). Even then, there were not only no thought provoking questions asked, there were no questions asked at all.

I'm not going to lie, just responding to up my post count because this thread is pretty much a small touch of fail. You wasted a few seconds of your life reading my bullshit though, which if you made it this far into the thread then you wasted a few mins of your life.

If I was trying to defeat an APC I would probably use a 20mm cannon personally, but that's just me.
That would work nicely for some APC's at some engagement angles and aspects.

It'd sure as fuck work for every M113 ever built.

However...
Newer vehicles like IFVs were designed to do battle with BMP-2's that had 30mm autocannons though, so your front glacis plates and basically the whole front half of the vehicle are designed to defeat 30mm from frontal aspect angles.

Basically, if your target was built after the BMP-2 was designed, you'll need something with more punch than 30mm unless you're taking a close-range shot from the rear of the vehicle, or from overwatch.
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by razi » Wed May 28, 2008 4:05 pm

maybe someone needs to develop a bolt-action 20mm?

you know, for squirrel hunting.
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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by screwsarahbrady » Wed May 28, 2008 6:08 pm

razi wrote:maybe someone needs to develop a bolt-action 20mm?

you know, for squirrel hunting.
like one of these? http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm

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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by chirps0331 » Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:15 pm

screwsarahbrady wrote:
razi wrote:maybe someone needs to develop a bolt-action 20mm?

you know, for squirrel hunting.
like one of these? http://www.anzioironworks.com/20MM-TAKE-DOWN-RIFLE.htm
wow, just freaking wow...

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Re: Zombies in armored vehicles. Will my rifle work?

Post by stealthbeast » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:55 pm

If zombies are smart enough to operate tanks without any training, this is really the least of your worries.
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