Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Training questions, approaches and reports

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Ripcode
* *
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:16 pm
Location: Muskegon, MI

Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Ripcode » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:53 pm

I took the Defensive Pistol Course offered By Trebor (Robert R.)

The only organized training I had previously was the course necessary to get my CPL here in Michigan.

The course covered:

The four step holster draw
Drawing from concealment
Trigger reset for faster shooting
Malfunction clearance
Engaging multiple targets
"Shoot or don't shoot" drills
Shooting on the move
Strong hand only & support hand only shooting
Shooting at 3-D targets
And more...

"More" included the thumbs forward grip and the various stances.

What this class taught me is that the CPL required course is basically nothing! :shock:

I didn't know how little I knew. I never thought I was a gunfighter, but I didn't realize how much skill is neccessary to to effectively wield a handgun.

I feel I have a better understanding and a foundation to work with. It's time to practice at home and at the range. It's time to commit to these new learned skills to habit and muscle memory.

The class was well paced and a actually a lot of fun. My strong hand is still tender from the high round count. (300 FMJ + 50 Defensive)

I found that I have a crappy trigger pull that I need to correct. Under stress I seem to shoot better than when I try to shoot non stressed. I also shoot better with my weak hand. Go figure! :lol:

I understand the importance of training and I plan on getting more whenever the opportunity and funds permit.

Here are a few neat shots Robert took while shooting at the 3D targets.

Robert was really cool and as I have said elsewhere, I would not hesitate in taking more training with him.

I am going to see if I can pull together a class at my range in Muskegon that he could teach at.

Robert, feel free to add any thoughts about this class! Thanks!

Image
Image
Image
Image

Trebor
* * * * *
Posts: 4443
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:14 am

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Trebor » Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:48 am

This class went especially well. The students all came in with the attitude that they wanted to learn and worked to stay focused and "dialed in" all day. That always makes a difference.

This class was smaller then typical. I had about five people who planned to attend but backed out due to various scheduling and money issues leading up to the class. We wound up with only three shooters so everybody got more one-on-one time.

I believe the students ran two Glocks and a M&P Compact.

The only gun malfunctions I noticed where caused by a student using full-size Glock mags in a compact Glock. Since there is no "stop" built into the full-size mags it is easy to over-insert them into the pistol and cause a malfunction. This happened more then once.

The M&P Compact had a Novak or a Novak style slanted rear sight. The problem with the slanted Novak rear sight is ther is nothing to catch on the belt or holster when you attempt to rack the slide during a one-handed reload. We ran into that problem as well.

The hardest thing to teach people is to KEEP MOVING. There's no reason to stay still while you reload or clear a malfunction. The only time you are motionless is because you are A. Behind cover, or B. Actually stopping a moment to fire at the target. (Shooting WHILE moving comes later. At this level I teach to pause momentarily, put rounds on target, and then move again. It's a good intermediate step and much better then just staying still all the time).

The problem is that there aren't a lot of ranges that allow shooting while moving, or even any movement at all. Those range rules get so ingrained that they are hard for shooters to break free from later.

One of my goals as an instructor is not only to teach specific skills, but also to help students understand *why* we do certain things. If students can understand the benefits or disadvantages of any particular technique, they can judge for themselves what works best and what they shouldn't spend their time trying to master. This goes for other techniques they are exposed to, not just what I'm teaching. If an instructor can't tell you WHY you are doing something, as opposed to doing it some other way, I'd especially want to look at it very critically to see if it makes sense.

One of the highlights of the class was when the students got to use the improvised 3-D targets I made. They are just a simple cardboad half-sphere, covered by a T-Shirt. They help the students understand how the aim point changes when you are shooting at a 3-D torso representation instead of a 2-D paper target. After each drill we'd examine the targets together and discuss how the wound tracks would have moved through the "torso" and how effective the hits may have been. It's simple, and a bit crude, but illuminating all the same. Next time I'll bring a laser and fog for the true "CSI" effect...

I changed up the target set up so for one drill they'd have to engage two "red" bad guy targets and avoid the green "good guy" in the middle. For the next drill they had to avoid the two red "good guy" targets and hit the single green "bad buy" who was mostly obscured by the "good guys."

No one "shoot the hostage" outright. There were a couple very close grazes on the "good guy" targets after a couple of the drills. You can see one graze on a red "good guy" sleeve below:

Image

If there is interest we could plan a ZS only class for spring.
Image
----
R.I.P HK33K - Gone, but not forgetten.

User avatar
steppenwolf
* * *
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:12 pm
Location: UNSEEN IN ALL THE RIGHT PLACES ...

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by steppenwolf » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:19 am

Trebor wrote:This class went especially well. The students all came in with the attitude that they wanted to learn and worked to stay focused and "dialed in" all day. That always makes a difference.

This class was smaller then typical. I had about five people who planned to attend but backed out due to various scheduling and money issues leading up to the class. We wound up with only three shooters so everybody got more one-on-one time.

I believe the students ran two Glocks and a M&P Compact.

The only gun malfunctions I noticed where caused by a student using full-size Glock mags in a compact Glock. Since there is no "stop" built into the full-size mags it is easy to over-insert them into the pistol and cause a malfunction. This happened more then once.

The M&P Compact had a Novak or a Novak style slanted rear sight. The problem with the slanted Novak rear sight is ther is nothing to catch on the belt or holster when you attempt to rack the slide during a one-handed reload. We ran into that problem as well.

The hardest thing to teach people is to KEEP MOVING. There's no reason to stay still while you reload or clear a malfunction. The only time you are motionless is because you are A. Behind cover, or B. Actually stopping a moment to fire at the target. (Shooting WHILE moving comes later. At this level I teach to pause momentarily, put rounds on target, and then move again. It's a good intermediate step and much better then just staying still all the time).

The problem is that there aren't a lot of ranges that allow shooting while moving, or even any movement at all. Those range rules get so ingrained that they are hard for shooters to break free from later.
***

***
Nice review! Thanks.

I agree that finding a range where you can learn/practice the various "move & shoot" drills can be a problem, ... my local range being an example.

When I was down at TDI-Ohio recently, this subject came up during a discussion with a couple of guys from Indiana. They mentioned their local club has a smaller, separate area of the larger handgun range set-up for "combat scenarios," where CCW-holders can run these sorts of drills with their carry pistol and not scare or annoy the more conservative members. :roll:

In a perfect world, my club would have two dedicated ranges set up for just this sort of tactical training and/or practice: one for handguns and another (of at least 100yds) for drills with tac 5.56mm carbines and secondary weapon.

I've noticed that what some guys who might be best described as "weekend warriors" seem to forget is that these skills - and the necessary motor-control & hand-eye coordination - are perishable, and will fade over time. It's one thing to acquire a basic skill-set and proficiency level with your weapon, but it's another thing to maintain it ... and that requires putting in a regular amount practice time, or what M4 trainer Pat Rogers refers to as repeated "sustainment training."

8)

User avatar
Ripcode
* *
Posts: 279
Joined: Fri May 07, 2010 3:16 pm
Location: Muskegon, MI

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Ripcode » Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:50 am

Trebor wrote:The hardest thing to teach people is to KEEP MOVING. There's no reason to stay still while you reload or clear a malfunction. The only time you are motionless is because you are A. Behind cover, or B. Actually stopping a moment to fire at the target. (Shooting WHILE moving comes later. At this level I teach to pause momentarily, put rounds on target, and then move again. It's a good intermediate step and much better then just staying still all the time).

The problem is that there aren't a lot of ranges that allow shooting while moving, or even any movement at all. Those range rules get so ingrained that they are hard for shooters to break free from later.
You are not kidding! That is one habit that is going to take some work to break! But it's one of those things I have on my check list to practice! :D

Equuleus
* *
Posts: 143
Joined: Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:40 pm
Location: Charleston, SC

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Equuleus » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:49 pm

Ripcode wrote:I also shoot better with my weak hand. Go figure! :lol:
I know what you mean! I've spent some time taking classes and have found that you tend to put a lot more time into aiming when you are using your non-dominant hand than you do on your dominant hand. This also goes for when you are using a one handed shooting stance--either left or right handed.

You are also right about those CCW/CWP classes and how basic they are. To think that there are people out there who have a permit to carry a gun and the basic level of "training" they have gone through makes me not want to leave the house. I know there are a lot of people out there who do not want the government to change a single thing about gun laws, but there are several areas I would welcome improvement such as requiring something along the lines of an advanced pistol course.
Image

User avatar
Jeriah
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 18722
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2005 4:12 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Original Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead 04, and 28 Days Later are my top three, in that order.
Location: Chicago, IL
Contact:

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Jeriah » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:54 pm

Ripcode wrote:
Trebor wrote:The hardest thing to teach people is to KEEP MOVING. There's no reason to stay still while you reload or clear a malfunction. The only time you are motionless is because you are A. Behind cover, or B. Actually stopping a moment to fire at the target. (Shooting WHILE moving comes later. At this level I teach to pause momentarily, put rounds on target, and then move again. It's a good intermediate step and much better then just staying still all the time).

The problem is that there aren't a lot of ranges that allow shooting while moving, or even any movement at all. Those range rules get so ingrained that they are hard for shooters to break free from later.
You are not kidding! That is one habit that is going to take some work to break! But it's one of those things I have on my check list to practice! :D
Big challenge for me as well. Moving while shooting (or reloading, or clearing a malfunction) isn't something I can really practice at any range I've ever been to, outside of the training with Trebor and at MilCopp. I could do it on private land in remote areas, of course, but they are...remote.

I figure I could at least kneel while reloading at some DNR ranges; lateral movement would be unsafe but a vertical "change of levels" should be OK.

You know what would be boss? If Trebor, DavePAL84, and Doc66 all came to ZCON and ran Range Day as an all-day training thing. I'm just saying...
Image

User avatar
Snapcat
* * *
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:00 pm
Location: SE Michigan

Re: Trebor - Defensive Pistol Class - 09/25/10 - AAR

Post by Snapcat » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:19 pm

I wish I could have attended this one, but I had obligations to my nephew to take him to the RenFest in Holly. I would definatly be down for an all ZS shoot in the spring.

Post Reply

Return to “Training”