Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Training questions, approaches and reports

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Jeriah
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Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Jeriah » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:33 am

Novices talk about hardware, professionals talk about software. We've all heard it and we all know it's true. So let's get professional up in this bitch, stop flashing around our chrome-plated sissy pistols we just bought, and talk about TRAINING.

Think of this as the "Hot or Not" thread, for firearms-related training. What is training? RANGE TIME IS NOT TRAINING. Range time is great, but training means time spent with an instructor. The instructor teaches you techniques, answers questions, corrects your mistakes, and evaluates your performance.

The following are appropriate subjects to post in this thread:
1. A summary of your past training, like your training "resume."
2. A description of training you just received.
3. A link to an AAR (After Action Report) posted elsewhere, either in its own thread or on another forum.
4. A description or AAR from a competition, range time, or practice session in which you applied your training.
5. A personal experience in which your training saved your bacon.

In every case, your post should contain the following information about the training in question:
1. When did this training take place?
2. Where did it take place?
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
5. What topics were covered?
6. What was the cost of the training?
7. How many rounds did you fire?
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?

If you want to ask, "Have you ever heard of this instructor before?", or get in a fight about whether an instructor is any good or not, do it in your own thread, not in this one. Think of this like the Hot or Not threads: don't clutter it up with idle chatter, only post accounts of your own training. If you want to chat about it, start your own thread or take it to PMs.

I'll start. I have taken two training courses, both within the last month or so.

Date: Sunday, August 15, 2010.
Location: Private range in Michigan.
Instructor: Rob Reed (Trebor): http://www.examiner.com/gun-rights-in-detroit/rob-reed" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Course Title: None; informal one-on-one session.
Topics Covered: Practical pistol marksmanship: reloading, moving, use of cover, malfunctions, etc.
Cost: Rob shared his time out of the goodness of his heart. I don't know what his courses usually cost.
Rounds Fired: I brought 400 rounds and probably expended about half that. So, 200 rounds fired.
Self-Evaluation: I feel like I kept up with the learning curve of the instruction quite well.
Instructor Evaluation: Rob is an excellent instructor; read AAR below for details.
Takeaways: Read AAR below for details.

Training with Trebor: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68297" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pictures: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/alb ... =672826227" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Date: Saturday, September 18, and Sunday, September 19, 2010
Location: Cow Pie City, a range on private farmland in Ohio
Instructors: Dave Merrell (DavePAL84) and Don Copp (doc66) of MilCopp Tactical: http://www.milcopptactical.com/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Course Title: Tactical Rifle/Carbine Course Level II
Topics Covered: Read AAR and course description here: http://www.milcopptactical.com/courses.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Cost: $200; cost including ammunition and travel expenses around $700
Rounds Fired: Estimate was 1300 rifle, 400 pistol. Ended up firing slightly less than that.
Self-Evaluation: I did pretty well but the training revealed some problems I have; read AAR for details.
Instructor Evaluation: Both Dave and Doc are excellent instructors, read AAR for details.
Takeaways: Read AAR (part 3, takeaways and gear evaluation, upcoming)

MilCopp After Action Report Thread: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69881" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pictures: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/alb ... 0562600418" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I strongly recommend both Rob and Milcopp for your training needs. They are awesome. If you can't train with them, for the love of God and all that is holy, train with somebody! And when you do, post an AAR, and link to it, like I just did.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by doc66 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:24 am

Trained with another school's instructor on 09/23/10 for about two hours. Working out with the new (to me) Sig P6/225. Fired about 200 rounds on paper and steel rotators.

Discussed that recent MilCopp Tactical Level II course and traded ideas.




Jeriah, how's that for a start?
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http://www.milcopptactical.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Jeriah » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:13 pm

Nice, Doc. If you had any more info on what you did with that other instructor, I'm sure people would love to hear about it.


In other news, here's a roundup of some recent threads that pertain to training:

Appleseed Project: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=64440" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

09/18-19 MilCopp AAR: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69881" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Macabee Sicarius' earler MilCopp AAR: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=66398" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This little girl probably has more training than you: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69949" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Front Sight's having a sale: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69887" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Training with Trebor: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68297" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Lever-action training: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=56132" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CCW course AAR: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69517" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Videos of drills, etc: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=69026" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trebor's Michigan CPL class AAR: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=67542" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Massad Ayoob: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Questions about equipment for handgun training: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68747" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Blue Mesa Shooting School: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68695" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trebor's Defensive Pistol 1 course: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=68718" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Gingerbread Man » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:45 pm

Date: 22 Sept 2010
Where: Friend's Range in Blythewood, SC
Instructor: Jason Bane, Part Time Firearms instructor, Former Ranger, Part Time Sheriffs Deputy
Topics covered: Rifle Markmanship, Ass-up Face down firing, barricade firing positions, Pistol markmanship, CCW drawing and timed firing.
Firearms used: Century AK47, Glock 19.
Duration: 3 hours
Began by shooting off hand from low ready @75m shooting 10x10" hanging steel plates.
Instructed on Ass-up face down prone. Fired 75m at plates.
Instructed in use a auto as barricade/cover/concealment. No rds fired.
Approx. 200rds 7.62x39mm fired.
Switch to pistol craft.
Did moving box drill firing on 2 targets. Fired at specific areas on each target under time.
Challenged to shoot at 75m on plates. Made them ring 50% of the time.
Approx. 150rd 9mm FMJ.
Impressions: AK sights are not the fastest sighting option but I hit about 90% of the time on the plates. I need to spend more time behind my G19. Since I started my new job I've only been to the range twice. This really brought it home once again I need to make time for the trigger. My LV time has transfered so I'm going to be out at least twice a month now. Plus my friends range is 15 mins from my house and I have VIP access.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Jeriah » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:47 pm

Awesome report, Regular Guy! Good on you for getting out there and getting your training on. 8)

Here's another great AAR, from phil_in_cs, doing Force on Force with Gabe Suarez:
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=64363" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Haji » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:02 pm

Here's a unique take on a training day. The range is on a piece of private property owned by a friend of mine. This was arranged with members of LF, and dubbed the LF Ft. Campbell Training Day. The primary instructor was Bill Toy of LMS Defense, but there was a fair amount of input from several other highly trained gunfighters, like Paul J. This training event was held in about April of '09, and included both handgun and rifle work. We had ten participants.
Bill runs the timer for Paul, who smoked everybody on the Vice Prez
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Many of the shooters there that day hadn't done much work with a timer, so the ability to see splits and fine tune and clean up the draw was very helpful. There was much help given in areas like fine tuning grip and tracking front sights.
There was quite a bit of use of Viking Tactics drills, including the 2X2X2 and Highsmith, as well as the use of their barricade design. Unconventional shooting positions are difficult, so most don't want to train on them. we did this day, and I still remember being sore for a few days afterwards.
Bill doing the Highsmith Drill. It hurts the old guys like me.
Image

Rounds expended were about 70 rifle and probably about the same number of pistol. Pistols were mostly Glocks and 1911's, roughly evenly split, with an M&P included. Rifles were mostly AR variants, with one AK in the bunch. The owner of that gun worked very hard, but he's a smaller guy (I'd guess 150 pounds), and the 7.62X39 was pushing him around a bit, and he struggled to get reloads done under the time standard.

What we'd do differently next time:
1. Create a syllabus to make the most use of the time
2. Create a schedule for the whole day and stick to it.
3. Do different drills than we used for this time

One of the drawbacks to this type of training day is that scheduling a particular day to fit the land owner's schedule and the participant's schedules proved to be a bit of a logistical nightmare. It was worth the effort, though, and is something we really hope to be able to do again.
I don't carry a gun in case I get in a gun fight. I carry a gun because I don't want to miss the opportunity to get in a gun fight. - Officer Timmy

http://www.atstacticalgear.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by steppenwolf » Fri Sep 24, 2010 5:32 pm

Not sure how many saw it, but way back I contributed this thread on training - and specifically training for midwest-based ZSers and other folk - at Tactical Defense Institute, which is located in SW Ohio:

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... te#p796318" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pics and relevant links are contained in that thread.

Great training, great instructor corp.

Hope this helps ... 8)
Last edited by steppenwolf on Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by steppenwolf » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:05 pm

Recent TDI pics (Sept 2010) ...

AK guy in a called position drill (against time). Note Aimpoint T1 on LT AK mount.
Senior TDI Instructor Dave Bowie works the clock.

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CQB snap-shooting drill while moving ...
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Line of students advance toward their targets during CQB drill;
instructors monitor CQB technique & weapon-manipulation.

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My 10" MRP SBR ...
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Another student with 12" SBR ...
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Heading into spooky Zombie shit ... a.k.a. TDI's Jungle Trail (JT) ...
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Training dynamic: thick vegatation obscures hostiles.
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Hidden Z-mofo gets 5.56mm blasting ...
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Said camo-ed Z-mofo.
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Debriefing after JT run.
Senior TDI Instructor John Motil explains camo target set-up (how many can you see?).

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Junk in the Trunk - getting set-up & ready for another drill.
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Gotta love tactical training.

I do - and I HATE golf.
:wink: :lol:


TDI's 2010/2011 Schedule is here:

http://www.tdiohio.com/scheduleb.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

8)

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Makarov » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:06 am

steppenwolf wrote: My 10" MRP SBR ...
Image
What kind of reddot do you run? It looks like you've got a LaRue mount on it, and I see that you have the Po'boy special in the back, but the stuff on the side of the dot threw me off when I tried to ID it.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by steppenwolf » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:06 am

Makarov wrote:
steppenwolf wrote: My 10" MRP SBR ...
Image
What kind of reddot do you run? It looks like you've got a LaRue mount on it, and I see that you have the Po'boy special in the back, but the stuff on the side of the dot threw me off when I tried to ID it.
Vortex SPARC (mini red dot) on LT-660HK (medium ht mount). In fact, the SPARC will fit any mount that Aimpoint's T1/H1 fits.

The 2.6x Hendersoldt-Wetzler mag aligns perfectly behind it in an LT-649-S (S = short mount, of the two 649s LT offers).

Before getting it, I'd read a number of the online reviews of the SPARC where guys used it hard, and they were positive. So I bought this one (just under $300, IIRC) and proceeded to beat the crap out of it at my local range, and then ran it hard during a 2-day course. Held up fine and retained perfect zero.

The only feature I don't like is its on/off switch. That button can be accidentally bumped "on" if the gun is laid down on that side of the SPARC. To turn the SPARC "off," you have to press & hold the same button for 6-seconds - so the chance of its inadvertantly being turned "off" is less of an issue.

Otherwise, the cash saved over a T1/H1 for what amounts to a dedicated training MRD was worth it. Now, if I was headed to the 'Stan or another sandy, 2-way firing range and needed a MRD that was "battle-field tested," ... yeah, I'd have sprung the extra $$$ for the T1 in the same LT mount.

8)

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Absintheur » Sat Sep 25, 2010 7:30 am

My training has been spread out over the past 30 years, I can't remember all the round counts and such. I have trained under the following instructors...

US Army... M16, M-60, M-203, TOW, Dragon, 4.2 mortar

Gunsite (when under Cooper) several handgun and carbine courses

Massad Ayoob... LFI I and II

John Farnham... several handgun courses

Ken Tapp... for NRA Action Pistol

I am also an NRA certified instructor for both LEO in rifle, shotgun, and handgun as well as a civilian instructor in home defense, personal protection, range safety officer, basic handgun, home firearm safety, etc. I have also been certified as a HK armorer for rifle, shotgun, handgun, and subgun.

There has been others as well that I am not recalling I am sure, I did quite a bit of training when I was in my 20's...am 51 now, I remember the lessons but not the instructors.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by doc66 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 8:28 am

Jeriah wrote:Nice, Doc. If you had any more info on what you did with that other instructor, I'm sure people would love to hear about it.

Date: Sept. 23 010
Location: Private range in Ohio
Instructor: Ummm. My instructor buddy from another school; DTI.
Course Title: None; informal one-on-one session.
Topics Covered: Draw from holster, movement, trigger control and sight alignment. And of course, Search and Assess.
Cost: Ammo
Rounds Fired: About 200 rounds fired.
Self-Evaluation: I need to work on trigger control, I have a slight stab from using too many different kinds of sidearms and different actions.
Instructor Evaluation: My friend is an excellent mechanics instructor. He can spot that stupid mistake quickly and correct it for you.
Takeaways: Read AAR below for details.

I'm switching back to Sig Sauer pistols after having been using Smith and Wesson 59-series, Glocks, and 1911s the last couple of years, with a revolver or two thrown in for shits and giggles. So the goal is to retrain the muscle memory. This day was getting to know the Sig P6/225 better. I was drawing from a Safariland rig for the drills and working lots of "first shot" drills from the holster. The focus was mainly on correct draw, sight alignment and trigger control and that goddamn decocker. All work was done from between 12 and in to 7 meters. Once the shots began to fall within the prescribed region of the two inch dot, we added movement to the draw and controlled pairs to learn the "link" or reset of the pistol. There was a slight sight adjustment which needed to be done as the pistol was shooting right; once the sight was adjusted, things were a rockin'-go. After about a hundred rounds on paper, we moved to the steel rotator. For those of you who have recently taken a DTI course, you are familiar with this contraption. If you are not, a short description is two steel paddles at the end of long vertical arms which spin on an axis. The object is to make your hits on alternating paddles as they begin to swing with each successive hit. What this does is causes the time that the target is facing the shooter to lessen and narrow the target window. It's challenging, fun, and frustrating if you are not careful.

Drills were/included; 1)Movement on the draw from the holster, one shot on lower and one shot on upper arm, movement, scan, and holster with movement.

2)Movement on draw, two shots on lower arm, one shot at top, movement, scan, holster with movement.

3)Movement on draw, two shots upper arm, two shots lower arm, movement, shot on upper arm (or two), movement, scan, holster with movement.

The object was of course to make the hits as the target window open and closed, movement to get "off line" of incoming rounds, scanning and SEEING, and holstering with movement to remove self from the area of confrontation. The partner would call out threats sometimes during either the scan or holstering to force the shooter into the loop of engaging once more. Threats called involved the shooter moving before engaging and making hits. Misses did not count of course and the shooter had to engage until the target was hit at least twice. No more than four shots could be fired from one shooting position. Scanning was done in a 360 with the collapsed hold so that the muzzle would not sweep bystanders.

Lessons learned. I really like Sigs. There's a reason I pushed for, and got them, to by our department pistol. I need to work on sight alignment, I keep holding slightly high on the front blade, probably a memory of the Glock grip. I need to decide at what point I am going to decock that f-ing Sig. I actually holstered it ONCE, one time only, but one time too many, with the hammer back after a rather stressful string of shooting that involved lots of movement, shooting scanning reloading moving shooting scanning moving and still making the hits. Just because you're breathing and having fun, is no reason to stop thinking. So more work on when and where. I caught it myself just as I holstered, but it was a bad thing.

Thumbs. I have always kept a high thumb and on a Sig, it rests on the slide stop; the slide does not lock on the last shot and I waste time on the tap/rack thinking there's a dead primer. We train with dummy rounds to induce malfunctions, and so I often think that the lack of BANG is a malfunction drill. I might have to change my thumb position for the Sig.

Keep at the basics. Shooting faster is not faster shooting, it's better basics. Once you get the basics smoothly, your speed will pick up and you'll shoot faster.

That's what I have for now.

Does that make you happier, Jeriah?
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Snakedriver » Sun Sep 26, 2010 10:08 am

Ohio Military Reserve Rifle/Pistol/Shotgun Qualification Course
1. When did this training take place?
2 days, once a year, 2002-2007
2. Where did it take place?
Mostly Camp Perry, Ohio or the OPOTC Academy in London Ohio.
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
Military (ARNG or OHMR Instructors) or OPOTC LE Instructors
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
See Above
5. What topics were covered?
Basic Rifle/Pistol Marksmanship, various firing positions (all static), sight alignment, trigger squeeze, SPORTS, etc.
6. What was the cost of the training?
FREE, except for the whole 3 years of your life thing
7. How many rounds did you fire?
120 rifle (40 during quals), 150 pistol (50 during quals), 50 shotgun (25 for quals, I think)
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
It was always a good time for enforcing the fundamentals upon myself. It was also a good unit exercise, plus getting smacked in the helmet is always a good time.
9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
It was always good, basic instruction. I felt that it was valuable, but dynamic training would have been more helpful in the long run. Still, these were good, basic classes to emphasize the BASICS of rifle/pistol marksmanship.
10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?
Basic marksmanship, Expert rating every year in Rifle/Pistol, still good fundamentals for long-range shooting (breathing control, trigger squeeze, sight alignment, etc.), I also became a certified instructor in 2004.

Ohio Basic Peace Officers' Academy Firearms Instruction

1. When did this training take place?
5 weekends spring/summer 2006
2. Where did it take place?
Union County Sheriff's Range, Marysville, OH
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
Jerry Smallwood, Circleville PD (ret.), Mike Murray, Upper Arlington PD (ret), Al Cook Franklin County SO SWAT
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
See Above
5. What topics were covered?
Basic Marksmanship, reloading, mutiple firing postions, cover, firing while injured, reloading while injured, contact shooting, shooting on the move, weapon transitions, engaging multiple targets, scenario shooting, verbal commands, contact and cover, arriving during an active shooting, shooting while disabled (OC/CS), shooting a hostage taker, TOP GUN Challenge
6. What was the cost of the training?
Included in tuition, ~$2700
7. How many rounds did you fire?
Well over 700 pistol, 200 shotgun
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
Did well, 2nd place in TOP SHOT (with a 92FS, the TOP SHOT also shot a 92FS, sorry Dave :D)
9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
Invaluable. This was the first real non-static professional instruction that I had had except for the limited times when we got to dick around on the OPOTA ranges during weapons quals. I had done non-static training non-professionally for years before, but it was different being in a "class" environment.
10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?
Other than mentioned above, I learned to listen to all the instructors, take what works for me from each one, and make me the best shooter I can.

Ohio CCW Course

1. When did this training take place?
Spring 2007
2. Where did it take place?
Private Range South Central Ohio
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
Mike Marshall, OPOTC Certified LE Instructor, retired LE
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
See Above
5. What topics were covered?
Basic Marksmanship, weapon retention/presentation, legal implications, reloading, how to carry concealed
6. What was the cost of the training?
$100
7. How many rounds did you fire?
~150
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
Did fine, dropped no rounds from scoring
9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
Good, Mike is a very good instructor and personable, but it was all things that I had studied before so I was slightly bored with the training
10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?
More than anything from this class I got my CCW and learned how NOT to play cowboy with it. This class was better for me from the legalities stand point than from the actual shooting standpoint.

Pre-MilCopp Class

1. When did this training take place?
Summer 2008, I think
2. Where did it take place?
Big Darby Shooting Range, West Jefferson, OH
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
Dave Merrill (DavePAL84) and Don Copp (Doc66)
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
Tactical Rifle I
5. What topics were covered?
Combat Breathing, changing planes, move and shoot, reloading, weapon transitions, cover work, "Groucho Walk", up-downs, stress fire, makeup of weapons systems/tactical gear, correct use of sling
6. What was the cost of the training?
Reasonable, I think like $50-$100
7. How many rounds did you fire?
~700 rifle, ~250 pistol
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
I did OK, felt that I kept up but didn't stand out as I had in the past
9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
Invaluable instruction
10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?
My take aways from this class were great, you can see them in the thread detailing that class. The biggest thing was learning moderized TTPs as almost all of my prior instruction was coming from retired LE or the very static way the military does a qual range. Plus it was nice to feel very challenged by the instruction.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Matt E. » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:35 am

Army

Magpul MAC
X1
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14503&page=2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Larry Vickers
X3 This is an AAR from the last one
2 day Pistol/Carbine
2 day 1911 operator
3 day pistol/carbine (below)
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=21924" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pat Rogers
Carbine Operator
X4 I think you can only check out this thread if you are a LF member
http://lightfighter.net/eve/forums/a/tp ... /200102446" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are more, one of them instramental, however, I'm going to limit this to the ones I can find AARs on so it fits in the guidelines.
Last edited by Matt E. on Sun Sep 26, 2010 12:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by DannusMaximus » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:43 am

This is not a resume (my gunfighter resume would be decidedly unimpressive), more an observation.

I thought I had recieved 'gunfighter' training in the USMCR (0311 for 8 years, so I did the whole infantry school thing plus numerous live fire ranges, etc.). In hindsight, while I did recieve excellent marksmanship training, I learned distressingly little of individual weapons handling skills. Not only that, but I didn't learn anything about pistol work, because I wasn't in an MOS that rated a sidearm, and never held a rank that rated a sidearm per TOE.

I got out in 2003, prior to my unit being deployed to Iraq. I hope that the services are starting to place more emphasis on the type of training that MillCopp and other classes are incorporating, because I think it could be a lifesaver for our troops. Learning to engage a target at 500M with a loop sling in a prone position is great, but not terribly practical...
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Watson: "Yes, I thought it as well to take them."
Holmes: "Most certainly! Keep your revolver near you night and day, and never relax your precautions..."

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Matt E. » Sun Sep 26, 2010 11:58 am

"Novices talk about hardware, professionals talk about software. We've all heard it and we all know it's true."

It's only partly true. I have never, EVER met a professional who doesn't talk about hardware. As a matter of fact, most can talk about guns and gear until the morning hours, and then talk some more.

The way to amend the old saying would be "Novices ONLY talk about hardware. Pros talk about hardware AND software."
"...And you would probably wind up with one of those souvenir miniature bats, because that is the kind of thing that happens when untrained people pick out unfamiliar equipment based on what "feels" right."

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by doc66 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:06 pm

steppenwolf wrote:Not sure how many saw it, but way back I contributed this thread on training - and specifically training for midwest-based ZSers and other folk - at Tactical Defense Institute, which is located in SW Ohio:

Great training, great instructor corp.

Hope this helps ... 8)
TDI was my very first school many years ago. At the time I think they were calling themselves Tactical Training Center. I seem to recall a name change or something in there. It was my first shoot house, jungle walk and first time I fired a MAC10. Fond memories of that place in the hills. One of the instructors was a Cincinnati PD undercover who was a hoot to drink with. Damned if I can remember his name....
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Haji » Sun Sep 26, 2010 2:54 pm

One of the instructors was a Cincinnati PD undercover who was a hoot to drink with. Damned if I can remember his name....
I'm betting those two are related issues. :lol:
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Ripcode » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:20 am

Date: Saturday, Septermber 19, 2010.
Location: Private range in Michigan.
Instructor: Rob Reed (Trebor): http://www.swatacademy.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Course Title: Defensive Pistol
Topics Covered: Practical pistol marksmanship: reloading, moving, use of cover, malfunctions, etc.
Cost: $125
Rounds Fired: Suggested 400 FMJ + 50 rounds of defensive ammo. I used 300 rounds of FMJ and the 50 rounds of defensive ammo.
Self-Evaluation: I now know, I know very little. :oops: The CCW course (which I took years and years ago) barely teaches the basics. This class gives me a real starting point.
Instructor Evaluation: Rob was great to work with. I would take another course with him.
Takeaways: I'm hooked. :mrgreen: My goal is some type of training every year. Read my AAR: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 16&t=70236
Last edited by Ripcode on Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by SharkChild » Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:34 pm

I did some training with Trebor at a gun range.
Cost of training was free.
I think about 500rnds of .22. 10rnds of 38sp, and about 50rnds of 9mm.
At first I did poorly but after tips given to me by Trebor my accuracy improved 100%. It was well worth the 3hrs to get there and the 3hrs back home.
I learned some of what you learned. I am going to cut and paste what you wrote.

Jeriah
Grip

Trebor taught us the thumbs-forward grip. It felt awkward as all hell at first, because I was used to doing a push-pull Weaver thing. But this is how he taught us to do it: make "the Fonz," that is two thumbs up (this part is just to show us how it was done, you don't have to make the Fonz every time!), then grasp the butt of your pistol with the strong hand. You're still making the Fonz, so your thumb is up, out of the way, not on the pistol. You then supinate your weak hand about halfway (that is, palm facing up and towards the grip) and place the meat of the thumb on the exposed grip of the pistol, behind the fingers of the strong hand, with your thumb facing forward. Then close the fingers of the weak hand. Then you close the thumb of the strong hand, bringing it down so it's parallel to the thumb of the weak hand, which is parallel to the barrel.


Trigger Reset

We started out firing from a fairly close distance, working on using "trigger reset." The trigger of most semiautomatic weapons has a "reset point," which is how far you have to release the trigger for it to fire the next round when pulled. Easing off on the trigger only to this point, rather than completely releasing the trigger, makes follow-up shots faster and more accurate. This is what we did: fire the first shot double-action, since that's what happens real life. Hold the trigger down, do not release it. Then, slowly back off the pressure, easing it forward until it "clicks." This is the reset point. Squeeze the trigger from there. This will give you faster and smoother follow up shots. If you do it wrong, squeezing too early, and nothing happens, ease off the trigger as far forward as it will go and fire from there. (This is apparently common in people who are first learning, although it didn't happen to me, I'm sure it's just a matter of time.) In no case should you ever release the trigger entirely (finger off the trigger).

One-Handed Shooting
There were two ways he should me.

Trebor
Sharkie's a good guy and we had a good time. We worked on the thumbs forward grip and short trigger reset. After a bit he was consistently droppling steel plates at about 8 yards with my CZ-75 or my 75 with the .22 Kadet conversion kit. We shot until I ran out of .22 ammo and we both were worn out.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by Big B » Mon Sep 27, 2010 8:04 pm

I decided to do a brief rundown of my most recent firearms training day at work (I am currently a LEO). This day’s training was mostly with our AR-15s, but there was some handgun work included.

Date: September 9th, 2010.
Location: My department’s range in WA
Instructors: 3 of my department’s firearms instructors
Course Title: N/A
Topics Covered: The main focus of this training day was use of cover. We also worked on transitioning to pistols, malfunctions, moving and shooting, multiple targets, deploying from a patrol vehicle with our rifles, and moving as a team or in partners (leapfrogging). Most of our shooting was from 50yds and closer, but we did a few drills out to 100+ yards. Some of our drills looked familiar, liked slightly modified versions of some V-Tac drills from their DVDs.
Cost: N/A I was paid to be there :mrgreen:
Rounds Fired: Approximately 500 rifle and another 100 pistol.
Self-Evaluation: Overall I did well. During one drill I managed to get a “golf clap” from the other students and the instructors. I do need to work on transitioning to my weak side with my rifle. I felt slow and awkward.
Instructor Evaluation: I am very happy with our current group of firearms instructors. There is a wide variety of training and experience amongst them and they are very dedicated to what they do.
Takeaways: All in all it was a great training day. It also helps that the group of coworkers in my class were all motivated fun guys and no one was complaining or making excuses.

Besides needing to work on my weak side, I want to take a rifle class (or several) this next year. Even though my agency is better than most about getting us to the range, and I am happy with our range staff, I want…. no…. I need more. I think it would also help to train with some other instructors too (duh).

Gear wise I am happy with my rifle setup, but I find myself moving around pouches every time we train. I also need to get some new kneepads…..
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by steppenwolf » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:34 am

doc66 wrote:
steppenwolf wrote:Not sure how many saw it, but way back I contributed this thread on training - and specifically training for midwest-based ZSers and other folk - at Tactical Defense Institute, which is located in SW Ohio:

Great training, great instructor corp.

Hope this helps ... 8)
TDI was my very first school many years ago. At the time I think they were calling themselves Tactical Training Center. I seem to recall a name change or something in there. It was my first shoot house, jungle walk and first time I fired a MAC10. Fond memories of that place in the hills. One of the instructors was a Cincinnati PD undercover who was a hoot to drink with. Damned if I can remember his name....
Was trying to figure out who this might be, as in the past TDI had several Cincy/Cincy-area LEOs on staff for various courses. Maybe he's moved on ...

Actually, I find the whole Adams County area to be very relaxing and almost tranquil, ... especially at night under a cloudless, starry sky after a hard day of training. Beautiful piece of the Buckeye state.

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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by psychomajortom » Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:50 am

1.Where? A local LE range that I've been shooting and doing work for 10 years.
2. When? 1400-1600 today
3. Who? A lieutenant who runs the range for the county. We work with the NWTF together.
4. Title? "Quit wasting ammo just standing there putting holes in the target... try this!"
5. What topics were covered?
Engaging targets immediately upon raising the rifle: Throw the safety and put 2 in the target.
Same drill with my non-dominant side... not too difficult, need to work on it.
Using a barricade the right way- not making a large target.
Moving to a squat while engaging a target.
Moving while shooting.
How to run with a rifle.
How to use a sling: ("it's a holster for the rifle, just shoot the damn target and quit tying yourself up like that.")
Reloading with one arm disabled (i had to keep one hand behind my back)
Malfunction drills.
6. What was the cost of the training? FREE... The R.O. was bored and came out while myself and CPT. OldMan were burning up my last mag. OldMan had to go deal with something and the R.O. took over to make sure he can teach the SWAT boys the same stuff in 2 days next week. His logic was that if a 20-year old non-LEO can do it, any SRT guy should be able to do it.
7. How many rounds did you fire? About 200.
8. How do you feel like you did? I feel like i did pretty well, i just need to work on moving to a sideways-aiming prone faster.
9. How do you rate the instruction? It was vital. Had I not gotten the training, I would have basically wasted a range trip, and I can actually USE the carbine now, as opposed to just poking holes in paper with my arm tied up in a sling.
10. What did you learn? I learned how to engage a target practically.
What are your take-aways from this training? "don't wait for it to react, i'll tell you when the target stops being a simulated threat." He had me engaging 2 silhouettes and would tell me when one stopped shooting. With his spotting scope he would call the shots and 3 on target in the kill zone meant it was incapacitated.
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Re: Zombie Squad Firearms Training Log

Post by J.C. » Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:24 pm

I took my first "real" training (e.g. other than CHP class) back in August.

1. When did this training take place?
August 22nd, 2010
2. Where did it take place?
Charlotte Rifle and Pistol Club
3. Who was/were the instructor(s)?
Scott Mauldin, Eagle Rock Training, Matthews NC
4. What was the title of the course, if any?
Eagle Rock Training Systems Practical Tactical Training - TAC I
5. What topics were covered?
This was part I of a two-day course; part I was on the 22nd and the TAC II was on the 29th. You could sign up for the courses individually which worked well for me as unfortunately I had a conflict on the 29th, so I only took TAC I.

This is a pistol-only class, and it is essentially an introduction to tactical pistol shooting; everyone there were experienced shooters but most had not had any real training before. We covered the very basics: isosceles stance, high thumbs forward grip. We practiced basic things like trigger take-up as you reacquire the target after firing. We practiced shooting from the high ready position all the way through extension to the isosceles position. By the end of the class we were drawing from the holster and firing six shots with the first from high ready as we "pushed" the pistol to extended position. We didn't do much split timing but quarter-second splits with hits on target was one goal and we achieved it or got close enough, that we know what to practice to get there.
6. What was the cost of the training?
$165
7. How many rounds did you fire?
600 - be smarter and than me and get a magazine loader to save your thumbs if you are going to fire 600 rounds from an MP .40 in one day
8. How do you feel like you did? Well? Poorly?
I feel like I learned a lot and over-all I did ok. By the end of the day I was tired and was not shooting well, but since then I have practiced and found myself shooting much more accurately. Unfortunately I don't have access to a combat range where I can practice many of things we did (shooting from the draw, rapid follow-up shots etc).

9. How do you rate the instruction? Worth your money? Invaluable? Waste of time? Actually harmful?
Scott was a very good instructor, it was always very clear what he wanted us to do and he did a good job of adjusting the pace of the class as needed. His day-job is training US Air Marshalls and they send him to several different courses a year so he has a lot of different schools to draw on, though what we learned in TAC I I imagine is pretty common across the board. He also had some very good staff who also walked the line behind us and gave us pointers or corrected errors.

10. What did you learn? What are your take-aways from this training?
I had intellectual knowledge of the shooting position we used and had seen almost everything we did demonstrated, but I really had developed a lot of bad habits (mostly posture) and I found these were making it hard for me to progress much further on my own; this course helped me get over a significant hump. I haven't shot an IDPA since the class but I'm very sure I'd turn in much better results next time - not that such matters much but I consider IDPA a better benchmark than just basic accuracy at a range.

I really wish I had been able to take TAC II as that would get into more good topics like shooting on the move, engaging multiple targets at different ranges and other more advanced topics.

Also I feel much more confident about taking other courses now.
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