Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

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Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by OhioMe » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:05 pm

AAR of Milcopp 9-18/19 ZS Class

I can't hope to touch the great AAR on an earlier Milcopp class by Macabee Sicarius, ZS Link, but here's a go.

As to the 9-18/19 class...

Far and away the best class I’ve ever participated in, and better than many ‘training videos’ I’ve seen (which remember are edited and polished).

The weather was warm and sunny to fair and cloudy, with an occasional chance of cow shit. The site was a quarry and series of fields with uneven terrain that was great for real life parallels. Somehow I think that in the unlikely event we’ll ever have to use the skills, the bad guys won’t be waiting for us on a flat gravel lot.

Don and Dave are both outstanding teachers. The pacing, quality, and organization of their classes are head and shoulders beyond other classes I have taken. As to teaching styles, they are neither coddling, nor are they abusive. In a situation where the shit is flying there won’t be time for tea and cookies, yet I don’t think anybody there was made to feel bad about not getting anything perfectly perfect

This class seemed like a combo of an introduction and intermediate levels. The basics are introduced on the first part of the first day. Luckily with this group nobody was dull knife or mall ninja. Each skill, each step, each concept integrates into something that you will be doing later. There was no chaff here.

There is only one way to change the outcome of a battle, quality hits/make the other guy dead; as in DRT... no more bang-bang at you and your buddies... not three days later in a hospital. Shooting is a perishable skill. To paraphrase Dave, ”Thats great if you can shoot the balls off a gnat at 200 meters, but what the fuck good is it if it takes you ten minutes from a benchrest?” Everything that was learned must be practiced or you will lose the ability to use the knowledge effectively. The class was using the NRA targets with only hits in the 8 inch black circle counting. Hits on paper but outside the circle were time/points down, and hits on the cardboard backer were more time points/down. This really is much harder than it sounds. Try it if you do not believe me, I dare you. At one point the targets were covered with t-shirts inorder to get us used to firing at 'targets' w/o targets printed on them.

It looks like we used around 700+/- rounds of rifle ammo, and around 100 rounds of pistol ammo over the two days.Most of the firing was done from 7 to 25 yards on day 1, and from 25 and 50 yards on day 2. Day one was mostly static drills, where as day 2 was almost all ‘active’ drills for lack of a better term. You ran from position to position, and engaged the targets/objectives. Being is decent shape is highly recommended as you will need to exert yourself to get the most out of this class. Image


From firing positions (any more rollover prone or face down-ass up anyone?) to mag changes the skills Milcopp taught us are a great foundation. However, they all require repetition and practice. A few dozen times in a two day class is enough to learn the skills, but there are not know to know them. Muscle memory through quality repetition and practice is required.

Also taught was various types of cover and proper firing positions to use from them. We learned about functioning as part of a duo or team. Maintaining communication and eye contact are of paramount importance. Making sure that your teammates know when you are moving, reloading, or that you are there covering their movements, reloads, and unfucks is very important. Communication, communication, communication...
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If the skills we learned are ever really needed, our enemy will be the one choosing the time, location, terrain/location. This class taught individual and small team (2 to 4 persons) tactics. This class culminated with multiple drills in full terrain bounding overwatch. Every skill from day one and two was applied cumulatively in the last three or four drills. Did I mention that half the targets went from 12-16 pieces of paper to 4 inch target clays? Well they did.

If I had to summarize it all in one sentence? Learn your stuff, practice your skills, and trust your team.

Other points of note:
11 of 14? shooters were using the AR platforms. 2 using Kalashnikov type rifles, and one Sig 556.
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Only two ARs had any sort of real malfunction. One that needed swapped out (IIRC) and another (mine) that started doing weird shit on the very last drill of the day after 700+ rounds of Wolf ammo on top of two days of hard use and very loose dirt and dust. My ARs issue might be something in the trigger/FCG because that same upper just put another 120 rounds of mixed (mostly Wolf) ammo down range w/o a hiccup.

10 of the 11 ARs ran EOTechs and none of those EOTechs had any kind of reported malfunctions. One Aimpoint, IIRC.
Wolf ammo? Yep, Wolf and other ‘steel’ case ammo almost to a man. No issues that I can recall.

Now to the shooters....

What a great bunch of guys! Seriously, I’m glad I met all of you. No one was a tool, no one was a mall ninja. Every body brought the right gear for the class. Putting faces to screen names is always nice, it is even nicer when the people behind the screen name are good guys in real life. As to shooting skills, while nobody was perfect, I’d go shooting with any of them any time. Even when the targets switched to the clays the quality of the shooters showed. Whether they came to class skilled, or picked up the skills in class (and there were both in this group) one and two shot hits were eerily common. Seldom were more that 5 shots needed to break the clay (Now, if only the ones on the hill wouldn’t flip and roll dull side up into the dirt behind other targets...this was the bane of us on Team Dead Hookers). Also important to add, no one quit... from youngest (21) to oldest (50something) everybody went hard from first drill to last.

Thanks Don and Dave for an awesome class at an awesome price, and thanks to my fellow ZS forum dwellers for making this class and everything I mentioned in my AAR possible. Thumbs up all around.

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Last edited by OhioMe on Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 After Action Report Thread

Post by E » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:22 pm

That's awesome. I really do wish i could have gone

Always next summer :D

Where was the actual course conducted? city state etc
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 After Action Report Thread

Post by RGR SNAPLINK » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:27 pm

That final pic, you guys look like an SF team!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by nimdabew » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:37 pm

That is a lot of EoTechs. Sounds like you guys had fun.
Thanks Anianna!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Greg Focker » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:46 pm

nimdabew wrote:That is a lot of EoTechs. Sounds like you guys had fun.
I was the only one running an Aimpoint at the class.
E wrote:That's awesome. I really do wish i could have gone

Always next summer :D

Where was the actual course conducted? city state etc
It was in Ohio outside of the city of Columbus. ZIP code was 43011, I couldnt tell you the city because it was done on someone's farm. The OP was NOT joking with that line about the "occasional chance of cow shit".
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by agent-smith » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:49 pm

Dave/Don are definitely on my short list of "Guys I need to train with".
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Chris@MTCT » Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:53 pm

Im having to jump through my ass at work right now but I got a note pad of of stuff when I write my AAR next week. I had a great time though!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 After Action Report Thread

Post by DannusMaximus » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:01 pm

RGR SNAPLINK wrote:That final pic, you guys look like an SF team!
It's the staggering amount of non-reg facial hair, isn't it? I was not mentally or emotionally prepared for all the magnificent beards and goattees. My pathetic attempt to grow a goattee only made it look like I had dust on my chin... :oops:
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by mikezq8ss » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:06 pm

I've been wanting to start taking some courses and this is one of the ones at the very top of my list I've been throwing around. It probably won't be this year... maybe next year if I'm lucky. The cool thing is at the job I just started at my boss also just so happened to be a lurker on this site (not registered though) lol. I put the bug in his brain about taking a course a few weeks back, so maybe with any luck I'll get some leave time approved easier, and possibly have my boss come along haha. From the write up it sounds like another good class, I look forward to it being my turn to be in the picture at the end!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by nimdabew » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:07 pm

Greg Focker wrote:
nimdabew wrote:That is a lot of EoTechs. Sounds like you guys had fun.
I was the only one running an Aimpoint at the class.
If it makes you feel better, I would run an Aimpoint too. I never should have sold my ML3 with LaRue mount. Though, I just bought a LaRue mount for my ACOG. Meh.
Thanks Anianna!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 After Action Report Thread

Post by phil_in_cs » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:12 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
RGR SNAPLINK wrote:That final pic, you guys look like an SF team!
It's the staggering amount of non-reg facial hair, isn't it? I was not mentally or emotionally prepared for all the magnificent beards and goattees. My pathetic attempt to grow a goattee only made it look like I had dust on my chin... :oops:
I'm surprised GraveDiggerFour didn't bust out the Mutton Chops for this. He could grow a pretty impressive set between Friday morning formation and Sunday afternoon.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by DannusMaximus » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:13 pm

nimdabew wrote:
Greg Focker wrote:
nimdabew wrote:That is a lot of EoTechs. Sounds like you guys had fun.
I was the only one running an Aimpoint at the class.
If it makes you feel better, I would run an Aimpoint too. I never should have sold my ML3 with LaRue mount. Though, I just bought a LaRue mount for my ACOG. Meh.
Focker shouldn't need anyone to dry his tears about his optic. He was selected as a team leader after the first scored drill of the day because he shot so damn good, if I recall. If that Aimpoint was holding him back, I would not want to be on the recieving end of what he can do with a different sighting system!
Holmes: "You have arms, I suppose?
Watson: "Yes, I thought it as well to take them."
Holmes: "Most certainly! Keep your revolver near you night and day, and never relax your precautions..."

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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Arch » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:17 pm

MilCopp's class is the best I've taken.

CLASS EVALUATION

Dave & Doc are awesome instructors that balance a "No BS" attitude with making the class fun and very informative. The curriculum does a great job of reinforcing basics, while pushing to improve more advanced skills. The live-fire / hot weapon atmosphere was carefully observed by all, and had outstanding supervision by the instructors. This aspect of the class stands in stark contrast with others I've taken. The instructors actually treat everyone like advanced adults, which forces critical concepts like muzzle discipline and trigger finger discipline.

Dave & Doc bring quality real world experience to their class, and do a very good job of explaining why a concept or skill is important without belaboring the point and wasting trigger time. After very solid informational instruction, the class executed the drills.

The team work and competitive nature of the class causes everyone to strive to improve while being able to watch how other groups worked through the same course of fire. This teaching method was very effective, and I feel that everyone benefited greatly from it.

Additionally, I found it extraordinarily professional for Dave & Doc to give technique credit where due, and not openly bash other schools of thought (except where deserved). The "there are many ways to skin a cat, but this is what we think is best and here's why..." approach was refreshing in today's hyper-self-promotion world.

Tying into the above statement: The instructors were also understanding of students who had a lot of experience with a technique that was different than those being taught. Real world example given - I've shot secondary weaver for a very long time, but the class is taught isosceles. When this was brought up, instead of trying to force a long term weaver shooter to change to fit the class Doc offered suggestions on how to improve the weaver style of shooting. After the course of fire Dave reiterated (with real world examples) of why trying the other method could result in better shooting. This was a very cool way of handling the situation.

I also felt that the class was an outstanding value (especially with the ZS discount), and that Dave & Doc spared no expense. The food, drink, and schwag were all awesome. I did forget to have Dave & Doc sign my Team Leader shirt though :cry: .

Final thoughts - the class gave Dannus Maximus and I a lot of new drills to practice during our local training sessions. It also reminded everyone to continue practicing drills at home (safe weapon was heavily emphasized...."candle" for those that were there).

STUDENT EVALUATION

I felt that everyone at the class came prepared, and had a very locked in mindset. The class stayed focused, and never berated someone for falling short on a task (or slamming their own AK into their mouth resulting in one very ugly ass prone - Sorry 'bout that Doc).

Checking to make sure I still had front teeth in the pics below :lol: :lol:

Image

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It was very cool to meet everyone, and make new friends. I honestly didn't meet a single person that I didn't like...and for me that's pretty rare. I hope to see everyone again at the next class, and look forward to seeing you all around the forums.

TEAM DEAD HOOKERS (TDH)

Disregard the original thread post to PM me, I'll just say it here....

I wanted to thank you all for busting ass on TDH. I think everyone on our team worked hard, and it was an honor to lead each of you. We all had significant improvements in our skill sets, and that made our team very effective on Day Two. I suspect we would have been serious threat to Man Down had there been a Day Three, because we were really starting to flow.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Big B » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:43 pm

Sounds like an excellent class!
I really wish I lived closer to Ohio.....
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Bearcat » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:49 pm

I am so bummed that I couldn't be there with you guys. Glad you all had a good time. Maybe a secondary course of all ZS can be arranged for those who couldn't come sometime down the road?
ETA: I love how everyone of those M4's had an EoTech of some kind.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by pyratemime » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:53 pm

Milcopp is actually one of the reasons I want to PCS to Dayton in February. I have heard enough about them and obviously read all of Dave's sage wisdom I will find a way to make it to some of their classes.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:55 pm

Bearcat wrote:I'm am so bummed that I couldn't be there with you guys. Glad you all had a good time. Maybe a secondary course of all ZS can be arranged for those who couldn't come sometime down the road?
+1 I was sitting a the most boring conference for work. It was one of those motivational ones too. I wanted to gouge my eyes out just to stay awake. God, it was lame.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by MJS8725 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:01 pm

The class looks like a lot of fun.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 After Action Report Thread

Post by Chris@MTCT » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:04 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:
DannusMaximus wrote:
RGR SNAPLINK wrote:That final pic, you guys look like an SF team!
It's the staggering amount of non-reg facial hair, isn't it? I was not mentally or emotionally prepared for all the magnificent beards and goattees. My pathetic attempt to grow a goattee only made it look like I had dust on my chin... :oops:
I'm surprised GraveDiggerFour didn't bust out the Mutton Chops for this. He could grow a pretty impressive set between Friday morning formation and Sunday afternoon.
Ha I was going to but I had to go to work on Friday morning so I had the fuzz going on by sunday, nothing to shape into awesomeness.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Arch » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:05 pm

The class pics are in the original "Meeting Room" thread. See them here.....

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... &start=432" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This thread was my final contribution to ZS:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 25&t=77253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My invitation to "take a break":

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 1#p1698421" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will not return to ZS so please don't send PM's. If you'd like to contact me please email...

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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Greg Focker » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:13 pm

nimdabew wrote:
Greg Focker wrote:
nimdabew wrote:That is a lot of EoTechs. Sounds like you guys had fun.
I was the only one running an Aimpoint at the class.
If it makes you feel better, I would run an Aimpoint too. I never should have sold my ML3 with LaRue mount. Though, I just bought a LaRue mount for my ACOG. Meh.
I don't feel bad about the limitations of the optic I bought/run, I thought at the time (and still do) that it best fit my needs/requirements for the most likely scenarios I would use it in. I've got a T1 with a LaRue mount, it isn't like I settled due to money issues. I was merely surprised that no one else was running an Aimpoint, that's all.

**Let me make this clear, I'm not trying to start an EoTech/Aimpoint debate here** After the end of Day Two, when I was shooting Dave's SCAR, I mentally commented to myself that I could see being just a bit quicker with a EoTech than an Aimpoint. That said, I also overheard someone during Day Two say something out loud that was basically the reason why I bought a T1 over an EoTech. **I'm not trying to start an EoTech/Aimpoint debate here, take it to PMs rather than shitting up OhioMe's thread**
DannusMaximus wrote:Focker shouldn't need anyone to dry his tears about his optic. He was selected as a team leader after the first scored drill of the day because he shot so damn good, if I recall. If that Aimpoint was holding him back, I would not want to be on the recieving end of what he can do with a different sighting system!
I was actually disappointed when you got selected as a team leader. I wanted to pick you so that we could have been Team Man Glock.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by Braxton » Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:25 pm

Well it was one hell of a month, ( Crammed into two long day's) I am sore in places that I never knew that I could be.
This was the best weekend that I think I have ever had! If you are thinking of going to a class. GO TO MILCOPP.

I will leave the AAR to those of you who can write, but I will add this. I would be proud to stand by every one of you if SHTF. We worked well together and really started to gel as a team. Go Team Man Down!!

I hurt, I think I have a hernia, my ar is nasty as hell, and if I could do another class in the morning I would be there.
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by nimdabew » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:36 pm

Greg, don't take what I said as a negative against the Aimpoint or your choice of optic. I am not impressed by the EoTechs just in terms of durability, past experiences, and battery life. I would choose an Aimpoint over an EoTech any day except on a gaming gun. Now, that being said, the choice of EoTech over Aimpoint is a personal one and I am glad no one brought primary arms optics and stated that they were just as good as an Aimpoint.
Thanks Anianna!
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Re: Milcopp 9-18/19 Carbine Class After Action Report Thread

Post by MikeCharlieUniform » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:39 pm

It looks like the class has expanded since I took it (and I learned a ton!). I really want to train with MilCopp again. Bonus - I've got a standard-issue Tier One operator beard too. :D

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