Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

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Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:17 pm

This is an 8 part series of youtube videos about 10 minutes long per vid, where Massad discusses his opinions on everything from 9v45, Shotgun in the home, when to shoot, shot placement, gunfights in history, and several other useful tidbits. Found it interesting and worth posting.

Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live 1 of 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18rqeJ2C ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Phoenix David » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:24 pm

Which one is the 9vs45?
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:31 pm

I watched them all back to back before posting, so I don't remember really. I'm pretty sure it's around the middle though.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by dmaxd03 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:50 pm

The caliber discussion is end of 2 and 3. Interesting to watch but is some is dated. 10mm and .40 S&W he dislikes due to lack of real world statistics. Also, this is prior to polymer tipped rounds. Very fun to watch, flashback to the 80s.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Aug 28, 2010 4:52 pm

dmaxd03 wrote:The caliber discussion is end of 2 and 3. Interesting to watch but is some is dated. 10mm and .40 S&W he dislikes due to lack of real world statistics. Also, this is prior to polymer tipped rounds. Very fun to watch, flashback to the 80s.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he dislikes them, just that he says their on paper potential is awesome, but unproven as of the late 80's. I think a lot of it is still valid.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by chills1994 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 7:36 pm

Mas is effective at marketing....

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himself
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Trebor » Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:03 pm

I've attended Mas' LFI 1 and LFI 2 courses. If I could get every concealed carrier to take just one class, by anyone, LFI 1 is the one I'd pick. No one does the practical and legal stuff as well as Mas.

LFI 1 broke down into about 25 hours classroom and 15 hours shooting. For a "pure shooting" class you can get more from a different class from another instructor, but for something that puts the whole practical, legal, and shooting skills package together, Mas is "da guy."

I wrote a long and detailed review of LFI 1 for "Concealed Carry" magazine a couple years ago. It is available on-line to subscribers. (If you really want to read it, PM me)

LFI 2 wasn't as quite as good as LFI 1, in my opinion. Nothing wrong with it, but there seemed to be "not as much new" when compared to LFI 1. Likely that's just because LFI 1 went into such detail there wasn't that much more to cover. The shooting in LFI 2 was a bit more intense.

Mas now teaches as the "Massad Ayoob Group." My understanding is his 1st and 2nd level MAG classes are essentially LFI 1 and LFI 2 renamed.

Mas has his detractors. No one is liked by everyone. He is good at marketing himself, but I personally don't see anything wrong with that, as long as he knows his stuff and the info is solid, and I believe it is.

I will say that no matter who you train with, train with more than one person or organization. I learn something new from everybody I train with and try not to get "guru fixation" and do something just because "someone told me to." Listen to the trainers, work with their system when you are in their class, and then go away later and figure out for yourself what parts of their system, style, or philosophy works for you. Keep what works, throw out the rest. Just think it through first.
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Laconic 24 » Sat Aug 28, 2010 10:06 pm

Trebor wrote:I will say that no matter who you train with, train with more than one person or organization. I learn something new from everybody I train with and try not to get "guru fixation" and do something just because "someone told me to." Listen to the trainers, work with their system when you are in their class, and then go away later and figure out for yourself what parts of their system, style, or philosophy works for you. Keep what works, throw out the rest. Just think it through first.
Great advice.

Thanks to the OP for the link, I'll check that out in a bit. I've read quite of bit of Mas' writings and thought he was pretty logical, a lot of his stuff is common sense. His LFI/MAG class is on my list to attend. Yeah, he has his detractors, but I think everybody in this industry has both a cult of followers and a cult of haters.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Phoenix David » Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:30 am

Laconic 24 wrote:
Trebor wrote:I will say that no matter who you train with, train with more than one person or organization. I learn something new from everybody I train with and try not to get "guru fixation" and do something just because "someone told me to." Listen to the trainers, work with their system when you are in their class, and then go away later and figure out for yourself what parts of their system, style, or philosophy works for you. Keep what works, throw out the rest. Just think it through first.
Great advice.

Thanks to the OP for the link, I'll check that out in a bit. I've read quite of bit of Mas' writings and thought he was pretty logical, a lot of his stuff is common sense. His LFI/MAG class is on my list to attend. Yeah, he has his detractors, but I think everybody in this industry has both a cult of followers and a cult of haters.
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by painiac » Mon Aug 30, 2010 1:12 am

dmaxd03 wrote:The caliber discussion is end of 2 and 3. Interesting to watch but is some is dated. 10mm and .40 S&W he dislikes due to lack of real world statistics. Also, this is prior to polymer tipped rounds. Very fun to watch, flashback to the 80s.

I recently read the Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery 6th Ed that Ayoob authored in 2007, and .40 S&W has proven itself to him by now. At the moment, I can't recall if 10mm was even mentioned in the book.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by ksbsnowowl » Mon Aug 30, 2010 7:15 am

I viewed this yesterday. Very informative, thank you!
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Necrodamus » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:10 am

chills1994 wrote:Mas is effective at marketing....
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himself
This is true but I think its true of any businessman.
Mas also has a lot of both real world and competition experience to backup what he says.
Even if you dont like him you have to respect him, well you dont have to but you probably should.

Thanks for this post OP!
I've read a few of his books and articles.
I agree with Trebor gleen what works from each, develop your own training, critic it and have some others go through pros and cons, then just train, train, train.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 30, 2010 8:58 am

The last time I paid attention to Mas's opinion, he was still advocating the use of the JHP 123gr +P load he called the "Illinois State Police" load, and specifically bad-mouthed 147gr as dangerously underpowered.

That was about 10 years ago though, has he changed his tune yet? I keep seeing lots of performance data showing 147gr JHP tearing up more tissue.
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by yossarian » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:10 am

Massage A. Boob is the Dr. Phil of firearms.
" So, brave knights,
if you do doubt your courage or your strength, come no further,
for death awaits you all with nasty, big, pointy teeth."

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:21 am

I like to think of him as the Jeff Cooper of 9mm.

A crazy old man with ideas that don't always make sense.
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Necrodamus » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:13 am

crypto wrote:I like to think of him as the Jeff Cooper of 9mm.

A crazy old man with ideas that don't always make sense.
THATS FUNNY I DONT CARE WHO YOU ARE! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Crypto you owe me a box of screen wipes!

and I agree when it comes to choice of caliber and loads sometimes he is a "little" too dependant on statistics.

[just imagine I colored that for sarcasm]
his dependency on statistics is... hmmm, lets just say it is what it is
I do agree when he says its not about caliber, load, placement, tactics, stance, etc.
It is more of a matter of training with everything being part of the formula.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by chills1994 » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:39 pm

Necrodamus wrote:
This is true but I think its true of any businessman.
Mas also has a lot of both real world and competition experience to backup what he says.
Even if you dont like him you have to respect him, well you dont have to but you probably should.
when I first typed my post about him marketing himself, yeah, I did it with a bit of a pejorative in mind. and I was expecting to get flamed for it, but in reality, my comment could be taken both ways. sure, I would love to be in Mas's shoes right now....getting paid to go on gun TV shows, getting paid to teach shooting classes, getting paid to be an expert witness.

so in short...he has done alright for himself.

the more and more I get into this gun stuff...or maybe I am just turning into a curmodgeonly and cynical old man....the more and more it all seems to be about marketing.
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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:44 pm

chills1994 wrote:Necrodamus wrote:
This is true but I think its true of any businessman.
Mas also has a lot of both real world and competition experience to backup what he says.
Even if you dont like him you have to respect him, well you dont have to but you probably should.
when I first typed my post about him marketing himself, yeah, I did it with a bit of a pejorative in mind. and I was expecting to get flamed for it, but in reality, my comment could be taken both ways. sure, I would love to be in Mas's shoes right now....getting paid to go on gun TV shows, getting paid to teach shooting classes, getting paid to be an expert witness.

so in short...he has done alright for himself.

the more and more I get into this gun stuff...or maybe I am just turning into a curmodgeonly and cynical old man....the more and more it all seems to be about marketing.
I believe you're right. A lot of it is about marketing and making money, but it's the responsibility of the gun enthusiast to see through the bullshit to find real, useful information. Even though Massad is out to make money (Aren't we all?) I also believe that he has plenty of information that is relevant and useful.

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Re: Massad Ayoob - Shoot to Live

Post by crypto » Mon Aug 30, 2010 3:22 pm

I remember reading Mas' articles in my fathers gun magazines back in the mid-80s when I was wee. He's been around long enough to have made his bones.

I don't begrudge him his success. He's earned what he has.

I just don't always agree with him.
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