shotgun shells for home defense.

General discussions regarding topics that aren't covered in one of the other sub-forums. NO DISCUSSION OF POLITICS!

Moderators: ZS Global Moderators, ZS Postal Match Officers

User avatar
jeremy1391
* * * *
Posts: 907
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 6:10 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead
dawn of the dead (old and new)
day of the dead (original)
28 weeks later
land of the dead
diary of the dead (very well done)
Location: tacoma, WA

shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by jeremy1391 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:36 pm

So here is the qestion, i just recently saw balistic tests of shotgun shells firing into balistic gel and the birdshot did alright but...
would a birdshot load , more specifically 7 1/2 shot 2 3/4 winchester universal shells be adequate to stop an assailant? the reason i ask this is i live in a condo and i know for a fact that 00buck will over penetrate through the walls and in the event i had to use my gun i wouldnt want to blast my neighbors through the wall....
the_klenzer wrote:
And finally.... if you are drunk enough, and your buddy dares you...
just tell yourself "if it's good enough for Les Stroud..."

Shadowsbane
* * * * *
Posts: 3302
Joined: Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:58 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Undead.
Location: Raleigh NC

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Shadowsbane » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:39 pm

Search the forum. Lots of topics on this subject.

Short answer is no it will not do particularly well. However, it is your life so choose as you see fit.

Number 4 buck works well, as does a 223 round if you have something chambered in that.
All dwarfs are by nature dutiful, serious, literate, obedient and thoughtful people whose only minor failing is a tendency, after one drink, to rush at enemies screaming "Arrrrrrgh!" and axing their legs off at the knee.
Terry Pratchett

http://www.lonelymountainleather.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Temporarily closed)

I am col o r Blind

User avatar
jor-el
* * * * *
Posts: 5217
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 3:42 am
Location: Watching over Metropolis

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by jor-el » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:49 pm

Not so short answer: gelatin may partially replicate wound profiles, but how often are you attacked by naked boneless criminals?
My son, you will travel far, but never be alone, for I am with you, my M14 and battle axe comfort you.

User avatar
TDW586
* * * * *
Posts: 8844
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Here, unless I'm not, in which case, somewhere else

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TDW586 » Sun Mar 08, 2009 11:56 pm

Medium-length answer; birdshot is generally agreed to be ineffective against large thin-skinned creatures (such as human assailants) because, as noted, it may not penetrate deep enough to reach vital organs and may not do enough damage if it does penetrate that deep to stop an aggressor.

My own tests have shown me that 7 1/2 birdshot will fail to full penetrate a 3" section of thawed meat. If you are so concerned about overpenetration that you feel it is necessary, load heavier (#6 or bigger) birdshot for your first one or two rounds, and the rest of the tube with buckshot.

As for specific buckshot loads, in all honest, I don't believe it will make a real difference. #4, #1, 00, 000, all will get the job done effectively and reliably.
Image

Tel0004
* *
Posts: 281
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 8:54 pm
Location: Ohio

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Tel0004 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:03 am

Buckshot penetrates drywaall less than 9mm, 45, etc, yet people never take it for talk about over penetration on those.

Birdshot penetrates less, but it will still go through a few sheets of drywall.

The bottom line is any bullet that is suitable for self defense will penetrate drywall.

You wouldnt hunt a deer with birdshot (even at a close distance), so why would you shoot an armed attacker with it.

If you are worried about birds breaking in, go with birdshot. If you are worried about humans, go buckshot.


http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

qwertyuiop
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:08 pm

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by qwertyuiop » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:12 am

jor-el wrote:Not so short answer: gelatin may partially replicate wound profiles, but how often are you attacked by naked boneless criminals?

sigged. my god, is that sigged.

Also, Tel0004, thanks for linking to the Box O' Truth - I was happily surprised to see that someone had saved me the trouble, as I was just about to. I've used that website to settle more than one ballistics dispute.

User avatar
Fire
* * * * *
Posts: 1710
Joined: Thu Mar 23, 2006 10:56 pm
Location: Centralia, MO

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Fire » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:02 am

at close enough range a shotgun loaded with blanks can kill someone- but reliability is suspect- I used to know a woman who was 20 years a trauma nurse, back in the 60's and 70's, and she said that the worst wounds she had to deal with were birdshot wounds.... tiny little holes all over the person, that you could not stitch, like an icepick (also problematic for the same reason)... upon discussion, she stated that a lot of those came through the hospital, and while a pain to fix, most survived, those that did not died from bleeding, as one of the tiny pellets had hit some vital part of the blood supply.... there were a lot fewer buckshot cases as she remembered it, because the majority of those went to the morgue instead of the ER...... I tend to take some advise from that, and load my HD shotgun with buckshot... now if you want them to be maimed and possibly survive to have a long and horrible recovery, then by all means trust the birdshot....
रक्षस

" I have stood the charge of the Rakshasha, my heart will not fail, I have felt the teeth of the tiger, I fear no evil"....

Hail St. Gabriel Possenti, patron saint of handgunners...

Ufdyixcaff
* * * * *
Posts: 3696
Joined: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:54 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Ufdyixcaff » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:43 am

Fire wrote: now if you want them to be maimed and possibly survive to have a long and horrible recovery...
... where they will have lots of time to think about their pain and suffering and contact lots of lawyers greedy for YOUR pound of flesh.

If you point a firearm at something, intend to destroy it, this means using the deadliest ammunition your situation allows. If you cant handle that, dont pick up a firearm.

armored_pig
* * *
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:33 pm
Location: Manassas, VA

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by armored_pig » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:55 am

Add a full choke to your shotgun and birdshot will be a lot more damaging.. Would I recommend birdshot still? Probably not.. But at 7yards, it'll punch a clean 1" hole through 1" plywood.

However, people aren't made of plywood. A 5$ box of buckshot can save your life!

nimdabew
* * * * *
Posts: 9345
Joined: Fri Aug 29, 2008 8:27 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: DOTD
I am ledgend
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by nimdabew » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:57 am

Can we please sticky some kind of thread about using bird shot as a HD shell? This is the second time this week this topic has come up.
Thanks Anianna!
Image
12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:I say when Wee Drop visits the US, we make her ride a goat. You know, like those little monkey cowboys they have at some rodeos. :lol:

User avatar
mikezq8ss
* * *
Posts: 433
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2008 8:31 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead, Shaun of the Dead... if it has "of the Dead" in it I'm game.
Location: Groton, Ct
Contact:

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by mikezq8ss » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:54 am

nimdabew wrote:Can we please sticky some kind of thread about using bird shot as a HD shell? This is the second time this week this topic has come up.
Thats actually not a horrible idea. It seems like Personal Defense loads are a common recurring topic here... maybe have someone who is interested in doing it make a chart with most of the popular calibers, and most of the popular defensive loads that go with it? If you really wanted to get into it you could have members volunteer to go to the range with their defense loads and their personal defense weapon of choice, and have pictures of the targets and comments on what round it was they were shooting...

Just a thought. I'm sure some of you can take what I said and work it out much better :wink:
Vicarious_Lee wrote:James, you really have outdone yourself by finding a legitimate way to send the ATF a picture of a nutsack. :lol:
Image

User avatar
cipher77
* *
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by cipher77 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 10:30 am

Shadowsbane wrote:Search the forum. Lots of topics on this subject.

Short answer is no it will not do particularly well. However, it is your life so choose as you see fit.

Number 4 buck works well, as does a 223 round if you have something chambered in that.
All my cop friends say if you want to shoot your neghbor's house up defending yourself, .223 would accomplish that task IF you don't have a structural brick exterior. any rifle calibers are not a safe bet for home defense due to collateral damage by the bullets possibly over penetrating their target or just in the event you miss your intended target.

Stick w/ a shotgun. any shot will do except a deer slug. or a pistol w/ TAP rounds or hollow point variants.

Unless you live in BFE & not in an area with a heavy population density, anything that knocks down your douche bag, would be murderer,rapist etc. would be fine except a .22. even if you got a head shot, they still can squeeze off a round at you if they've got a heater pointed @ you.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-Mark Twain

TheTransporter
* * *
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Stripper Zombies, 28 days later

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TheTransporter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:13 am

cipher77 wrote:
Shadowsbane wrote:Search the forum. Lots of topics on this subject.

Short answer is no it will not do particularly well. However, it is your life so choose as you see fit.

Number 4 buck works well, as does a 223 round if you have something chambered in that.
All my cop friends say if you want to shoot your neghbor's house up defending yourself, .223 would accomplish that task IF you don't have a structural brick exterior. any rifle calibers are not a safe bet for home defense due to collateral damage by the bullets possibly over penetrating their target or just in the event you miss your intended target.

Stick w/ a shotgun. any shot will do except a deer slug. or a pistol w/ TAP rounds or hollow point variants.

Unless you live in BFE & not in an area with a heavy population density, anything that knocks down your douche bag, would be murderer,rapist etc. would be fine except a .22. even if you got a head shot, they still can squeeze off a round at you if they've got a heater pointed @ you.

That 223 info isn't exactly true. I've seen and taken part in tests. you want to talk about over penetration, shoot some drywall with a JHP... that hole fills up so fast and then it's like a FMJ. .223 tends to deflect greatly through soft object (drywall, wood) while will punch through hard objects (steel) when hit at a perpendicular angle. you can literally "bounce" .223 rounds off the hood of a car... (angle 45 degrees or less) buckshot... generally doesn't "bounce" like that.
"Live Free or Die."

"No one gets out of this life alive anyway...."

User avatar
cipher77
* *
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by cipher77 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:16 am

Fire wrote:now if you want them to be maimed and possibly survive to have a long and horrible recovery, then by all means trust the birdshot....
Maimed & survive to testify in court against you for injuries received on your property & suing you for hospital bills as well as punative damages. As Fire stated, "then by all means trust the birdshot".

Dead people can't testify in court effectively.

12ga. 00 buck is in my 870 tactical.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-Mark Twain

TheTransporter
* * *
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Stripper Zombies, 28 days later

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TheTransporter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:16 am

5 second google search gave me this...


http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26

The 223 overpenetration is a myth than true.
"Live Free or Die."

"No one gets out of this life alive anyway...."

User avatar
cipher77
* *
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by cipher77 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:20 am

TheTransporter wrote:
cipher77 wrote:
Shadowsbane wrote:Search the forum. Lots of topics on this subject.

Short answer is no it will not do particularly well. However, it is your life so choose as you see fit.

Number 4 buck works well, as does a 223 round if you have something chambered in that.
All my cop friends say if you want to shoot your neghbor's house up defending yourself, .223 would accomplish that task IF you don't have a structural brick exterior. any rifle calibers are not a safe bet for home defense due to collateral damage by the bullets possibly over penetrating their target or just in the event you miss your intended target.

Stick w/ a shotgun. any shot will do except a deer slug. or a pistol w/ TAP rounds or hollow point variants.

Unless you live in BFE & not in an area with a heavy population density, anything that knocks down your douche bag, would be murderer,rapist etc. would be fine except a .22. even if you got a head shot, they still can squeeze off a round at you if they've got a heater pointed @ you.

That 223 info isn't exactly true. I've seen and taken part in tests. you want to talk about over penetration, shoot some drywall with a JHP... that hole fills up so fast and then it's like a FMJ. .223 tends to deflect greatly through soft object (drywall, wood) while will punch through hard objects (steel) when hit at a perpendicular angle. you can literally "bounce" .223 rounds off the hood of a car... (angle 45 degrees or less) buckshot... generally doesn't "bounce" like that.
I'm sure yourcorrect but I wasn't really saying that it would penetrate completely. I know that .223 has goofy balistics & can ricochet off of anything. I just wanted to state that .223 or any other rifle round, shot from a rifle, has a far more greater chance of swiss-cheesing your neighbors house than a shotgun w/ anything 00 buck or smaller.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-Mark Twain

User avatar
cipher77
* *
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by cipher77 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:24 am

TheTransporter wrote:5 second google search gave me this...


http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26

The 223 overpenetration is a myth than true.
that's fine. I'll stick to my 12ga w/ 00 buck. I wouldn't want to chance it with my ar-15 though. There's really no need to use a rifle for home defense unless it's your only choice (if that's all you own). There are too many "what ifs" using a rifle for home defense.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-Mark Twain

User avatar
Keith B
* * * * *
Posts: 2823
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:53 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead
Resident Evil 3
Did not like 28 days later
Location: Eastern Washington
Contact:

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Keith B » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:40 am

The 223 does not overpenetrate when loaded with thin jacketed bullets. They tend to come apart in a wall. Of course they also come apart in people and also may not reliably penetrate. So how come we don't say use a 223 if you expect varmits to break into your house? On the bird shot issue, just load up any size buck shot, maybe a few slugs in the bottom and sleep well at night.

Me personally? I have an AR loaded with those Black colored varmity bullets and a second mag of Barnes X bullets from Cor Bon. I also have a shoygun loaded with 00 buck and slugs.
The asshole formerly known as Sigboy40

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
An accident while adventuring is always an indication of incompetence-Col Townsend Whelen
thinkfree wrote:Sigboy40 is the greatest asshole I have ever had the pleasure of knowing
Sigboy Scout Belt
Outcast Prepper Blog

TheTransporter
* * *
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Stripper Zombies, 28 days later

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TheTransporter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:42 am

cipher77 wrote:
TheTransporter wrote:5 second google search gave me this...


http://www.olyarms.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=26

The 223 overpenetration is a myth than true.
that's fine. I'll stick to my 12ga w/ 00 buck. I wouldn't want to chance it with my ar-15 though. There's really no need to use a rifle for home defense unless it's your only choice (if that's all you own). There are too many "what ifs" using a rifle for home defense.

Oh believe me, i'm sticking with my shotgun too! I agree with all that you have said, just that the 223 overpenetrates and shoot up your neighbors place i don't. It's a myth.

Just didn't want that myth perpetuated. Police depts. all over the country not using rifles because of something that's not true.
"Live Free or Die."

"No one gets out of this life alive anyway...."

qwertyuiop
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 258
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:08 pm

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by qwertyuiop » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:02 pm

XM193 from a 16" AR penetrates 12 (one dozen) 3/4" pine boards, and keeps moving:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

This guy does tons of real-world penetration testing - no smoke being blown by ammo or weapon manufacturers. I highly anyone who even thinks they like guns to check it out - it's entertaining, and educational.

TheTransporter
* * *
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Stripper Zombies, 28 days later

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TheTransporter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:10 pm

misterfuffie wrote:XM193 from a 16" AR penetrates 12 (one dozen) 3/4" pine boards, and keeps moving:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot1.htm

This guy does tons of real-world penetration testing - no smoke being blown by ammo or weapon manufacturers. I highly anyone who even thinks they like guns to check it out - it's entertaining, and educational.
Everything else penetrated all the levels of sheetrock in their testing too....

I don't know if i call those tests real world testing. They are good to see and entertaining, but not exactly real world. where do you shoot at the equivalent of 6 walls lined up parallel to each other.

The box is a great test of penetration of peices of sheetrock, (or pine) when shot at perpendicular to the material.

if you notice the 223 he states begins tumbling... that's not exactly a good sign of ballistic capabilty of a bullet. Shoot some sheet at a slight angle, as it goes through 1 layer, it will rip most the jacket off and the bullet will fragment.
"Live Free or Die."

"No one gets out of this life alive anyway...."

User avatar
cipher77
* *
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:40 am

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by cipher77 » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:13 pm

TheTransporter wrote: Police depts. all over the country not using rifles because of something that's not true.
Well, In my opinion, I think the reason why they are using rifles (ar-15's MP5's etc.) for like HBT/SWAT is because they have much more precision with that weapon when it comes to being in an enclosed environment. example: they enter a crack house & there's 3 people sitting on a couch & 2 of them are unarmed but one of them is reaching in his pants for a .45 or just grabbed a 12 ga.& starts swinging it towards the officer. An aimpoint or eotech on a AR 15 will eliminate that threat without the potential risk of injuring the 2 unarmed subjects in the close vicinity of the shit bag. plus, a .223 tap round or nosler round will turn that guy into a instant piece of furniture or a door stop.
"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
-Mark Twain

TheTransporter
* * *
Posts: 413
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:54 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Stripper Zombies, 28 days later

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by TheTransporter » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:24 pm

cipher77 wrote:
TheTransporter wrote: Police depts. all over the country not using rifles because of something that's not true.
Well, In my opinion, I think the reason why they are using rifles (ar-15's MP5's etc.) for like HBT/SWAT is because they have much more precision with that weapon when it comes to being in an enclosed environment. example: they enter a crack house & there's 3 people sitting on a couch & 2 of them are unarmed but one of them is reaching in his pants for a .45 or just grabbed a 12 ga.& starts swinging it towards the officer. An aimpoint or eotech on a AR 15 will eliminate that threat without the potential risk of injuring the 2 unarmed subjects in the close vicinity of the shit bag. plus, a .223 tap round or nosler round will turn that guy into a instant piece of furniture or a door stop.
I agree the ones using rifles, obviously aren't buying into the myth...... :?: It's fairly obvious the ones using rifles, don't believe that a rifle isn't the right tool.

But I have been to and given training with tons of dpts. using shotties/mp5... because they are worried about the over penetration. We always try to set them straight. But the ones not using the rifles, aren't using them because they have bought into a myth(for the most part).
"Live Free or Die."

"No one gets out of this life alive anyway...."

User avatar
Keith B
* * * * *
Posts: 2823
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:53 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Dawn of the Dead
Resident Evil 3
Did not like 28 days later
Location: Eastern Washington
Contact:

Re: shotgun shells for home defense.

Post by Keith B » Mon Mar 09, 2009 12:26 pm

XM193 is a 55 gr FMJ projectile, it is designed to penetrate. A nosler bullet would also hold together very well and have awesome penetration, TAP ammo is nothing more than Hornadays Vmax bullet with a moly coating on it. It will fragnment into pieces of ot comes into contact with sheetrock. Whatever pieces do penetrate will have little to no energy left.
The asshole formerly known as Sigboy40

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is.
An accident while adventuring is always an indication of incompetence-Col Townsend Whelen
thinkfree wrote:Sigboy40 is the greatest asshole I have ever had the pleasure of knowing
Sigboy Scout Belt
Outcast Prepper Blog

Post Reply

Return to “General Firearms Discussion”