The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

[woodsghost]

I was chatting with a politically savvy friend of mine who suggested that Texas knows the legal move won't go anywhere, but it could well be impetus for a future secession or other move towards autonomy or independence, as they can show they have no federal path to redress grievances. That could make for an interesting moment.

I disagree with the idea that it will "go nowhere." I think it has legs.

But life gets interesting whether it has legs or not. If it goes nowhere and the constitution doesn't matter, that causes a lot of chaos. If it does have legs, then probably we got to a seating of 50 (or 49, depending on how one State goes) delegates, 1 from each State, and the delegates vote, and we accept that result no matter what, because that result won't be fakable.

Then.....we see how US States handle the result.

To me, that is the only path which probably won't result in immediate issues. But I guarantee, no matter what comes out of all this, there WILL be issues.

It is critically important to have rules and play by the rules. Without obeying the rules, we have Anarchy. Anarchy invites Strongmen who step in and control the Anarchy. The moment people in power started saying "screw the rules" we started walking down a bad path.

It was asked earlier whether there might be foreign influence in the trubles we are facing. The evidence so far is pointing to China. They also have the most to gain from chaos, so I suspect the evidence is correct.

[NT2C]

I would remind everyone here that, like those "Highway Safety Zones" where fines are doubled and enforcement is stepped up, this is a "No Politics Safety Zone". We let y'all get a little closer to the line in the sand here because it's needed in this day and age, but you will get hammered for putting even a nose hair over it. Remember, our focus is and always will be, prepping to survive whatever happens.

[PistolPete]

I would remind everyone here that, like those "Highway Safety Zones" where fines are doubled and enforcement is stepped up, this is a "No Politics Safety Zone". We let y'all get a little closer to the line in the sand here because it's needed in this day and age, but you will get hammered for putting even a nose hair over it. Remember, our focus is and always will be, prepping to survive whatever happens.

Last time I got one of those fascist double fine tickets I went to court and fought it and won. Not that that has any bearing here.

On the topic of civil war, prominent comedian Stephen Colbert said last night that any states that support the Texas legal action are basically supporting the confederacy. That's quite a statement, and since people under 35 get their news from comedians, this could have the effect of getting people to think more in terms of an actual civil war with states facing off against each other. That's a pretty big step towards an actual civil war.

Personally, I think this puts us much closer to a real war than the rioting earlier this year, that only involved a tiny minority of citizens. Thinking about 40% of the states as dissidents is a pretty big deal. I know "just move" is never an acceptable answer on ZS, but if things go hot and you are in a battleground area, GTFO would seem to be the best choice.

[raptor2]

On the topic of civil war, prominent comedian Stephen Colbert said last night that any states that support the Texas legal action are basically supporting the confederacy. That's quite a statement, and since people under 35 get their news from comedians, this could have the effect of getting people to think more in terms of an actual civil war with states facing off against each other. That's a pretty big step towards an actual civil war.

I am not sure I would classify Colbert as a comedian...although I guess if dead babies are comedy material he would fit that description.

The SCOTUS case will be interesting.
One faction seems to think the election is a done deal and any change in their perception will be a shock to that group.
Technically it is not a done deal until the electoral college makes it so AND the US Congress accepts the decision in January 2021.
Any such shock is likely to result in an eruption of violence.

The MSM talks about a civil war as if it is North vs. South. Idiots like Colbert foster that stupid thought pattern.
The violence that would erupt would be closer in appearance to the Balkan Civil War. In that case there were enclaves and exclaves of ethnic populations that engaged in conflict. That conflict brought us the popular use of the horrific term of "Ethnic Cleansing"; it makes the horrible violence against unarmed civilians seem like KP duty.

Getting back to the events:
The SCOTUS case has 2 likely outcomes.
1.) A dismissal of the case without a hearing, or
2.)A hearing on the issues.

The rhetoric that is starting to criticize that possibility of the hearing shows the fear on the side who thinks the matter is a done deal. Fear breed violence and anger... remember anger sells clicks and makes money for people. So you an expect a lot more of this BS.

If there is a hearing the likelihood of violence IMO rises a lot. Again forget the North vs. South BS promulgated by idiots. Think violence in cities.

If there is a SCOTUS hearing then there are several possible outcomes but for the time being determining possible outcomes for that is premature. The agreement to the hearing will provide further food for that discussion.

[M813]

On the topic of civil war, prominent comedian Stephen Colbert said last night that any states that support the Texas legal action are basically supporting the confederacy. That's quite a statement, and since people under 35 get their news from comedians, this could have the effect of getting people to think more in terms of an actual civil war with states facing off against each other. That's a pretty big step towards an actual civil war.

Which is what happens when people get their news from a comedian who posed as a newsman. Uneducated morons lacking critical thinking skills.

You advise moving. I agree. I've finally got all of my critical family historical documents lined up. I'm filing for dual citizenship in my family's country of origin. I'm not under any illusions that the old homeland is some sort of paradise but at least they aren't pretending to be something that they're not. It's good to have options.

[WillyWinchester]

I don't think there's going to be an oncoming civil war. But it doesn't hurt to be prepared. Stay safe everyone.

[williaty]

On the topic of civil war, prominent comedian Stephen Colbert said last night that any states that support the Texas legal action are basically supporting the confederacy. That's quite a statement, and since people under 35 get their news from comedians, this could have the effect of getting people to think more in terms of an actual civil war with states facing off against each other. That's a pretty big step towards an actual civil war.

I agree with Robert Evans on this one: The more people realize that civil war is a thing that could realistically happen here, the more likely we are to avoid another civil war. I live right on the border between metro and rural. Literally I have high density housing 2 properties to my west and farmland starts the next property to my east. From the rural side, I hear a ton of chatter right now about how the rural people think a civil war would be a great thing to "take back their country from those damned city kids". However, when you talk to them, most of them think that someone else should have this civil war in some other state. They don't actually want to have to deal with the civil war themselves. I think 99% of the people in America are like that. They don't want to have to deal with a civil war regardless of how pissed off they are about the current state of the country. The more that happens to make people on both sides feel like civil war is an actual possibility rather than a rhetorical device, the more worried they're going to get and the more likely the are to latch on to something that gives them the hope of avoiding it.

Which is what happens when people get their news from a comedian who posed as a newsman. Uneducated morons lacking critical thinking skills.

I strongly disagree with this, at least in the context of the person discussed here. The problem is that the alleged news stopped doing journalism at least 20 years ago. Newsmax, OANN, Fox News, CNN, CNBC, etc all are just entertainment products. They make more profit when you're enraged, not informed. Jon Stewart, followed by Stephen Colbert and John Oliver, found a niche where they could do real journalism and get it past the networks by calling it comedy. All of them like doing jokes that require an understanding of the subject matter in order to get why the joke is funny. They have to inform their audience before they can get the laugh. There's absolutely no way to understand why a giant squirrel saying "Eat shit, Bob!" is funny without spending 20 minutes teaching the history of coal mining in Ohio and West Virginia and the labor struggles against Bob Murray's abuses. So someone who watches Colbert or Oliver because they're funny is actually going to be more informed than someone who watches Tucker Carlson or Rachel Maddow.

[woodsghost]

Something I had not considered, but how does one conduct a shooting war amidst a pandemic?

And how does one conduct a secession when locked down?

Just some questions I had not thought to ask.

I am being facetious, but I think this is some food for thought.

[NT2C]

Something I had not considered, but how does one conduct a shooting war amidst a pandemic?

And how does one conduct a secession when locked down?

Just some questions I had not thought to ask.

I am being facetious, but I think this is some food for thought.

Well, if you have to be masked anyway...

[boskone]

Something I had not considered, but how does one conduct a shooting war amidst a pandemic?

With a rifle?

And how does one conduct a secession when locked down?

Email.

To: Other Guys
From: Guys
Subject: Articles of Secession

Dear Sir/Madam,

We respectfully inform you that we find the decision of the government to be unacceptable, and so with regret will be withdrawing our support effective ...

[tony d tiger]

On the topic of civil war, prominent comedian Stephen Colbert said last night that any states that support the Texas legal action are basically supporting the confederacy. That's quite a statement, and since people under 35 get their news from comedians, this could have the effect of getting people to think more in terms of an actual civil war with states facing off against each other. That's a pretty big step towards an actual civil war.

I am not sure I would classify Colbert as a comedian...although I guess if dead babies are comedy material he would fit that description.

The SCOTUS case will be interesting.
One faction seems to think the election is a done deal and any change in their perception will be a shock to that group.
Technically it is not a done deal until the electoral college makes it so AND the US Congress accepts the decision in January 2021.
Any such shock is likely to result in an eruption of violence.

The MSM talks about a civil war as if it is North vs. South. Idiots like Colbert foster that stupid thought pattern.
The violence that would erupt would be closer in appearance to the Balkan Civil War. In that case there were enclaves and exclaves of ethnic populations that engaged in conflict. That conflict brought us the popular use of the horrific term of "Ethnic Cleansing"; it makes the horrible violence against unarmed civilians seem like KP duty.

Getting back to the events:
The SCOTUS case has 2 likely outcomes.
1.) A dismissal of the case without a hearing, or
2.)A hearing on the issues.

The rhetoric that is starting to criticize that possibility of the hearing shows the fear on the side who thinks the matter is a done deal. Fear breed anger and violence ... remember anger sells clicks and makes money for people. So you can expect a lot more of this BS.

If there is a hearing the likelihood of violence IMO rises a lot. Again forget the North vs. South BS promulgated by idiots. Think violence in cities.

If there is a SCOTUS hearing then there are several possible outcomes but for the time being determining possible outcomes for that is premature. The agreement to the hearing will provide further food for that discussion.

No reason for the antagonists to stop now, and frankly, the presumed "done deal" was not the end of it.
Stand by for WROL, duration TBD.

[raptor2]

To: Other Guys
From: Guys
Subject: Articles of Secession

Dear Sir/Madam,

We respectfully inform you that we find the decision of the government to be unacceptable, and so with regret will be withdrawing our support effective ...

If that communication was coming from Texas I would expect a bit more than that.
Remember they brought "Remember the Alamo", and this flag into America's culture of "Awww Hell NO!".

No reason for the antagonists to stop now, and frankly, the presumed "done deal" was not the end of it.
Stand by for WROL, duration TBD.

As has been pointed out it never really stopped in Oregon. It has become the new norm and is no longer The MSM news worthy.

[boskone]

To: Other Guys
From: Guys
Subject: Articles of Secession

Dear Sir/Madam,

We respectfully inform you that we find the decision of the government to be unacceptable, and so with regret will be withdrawing our support effective ...

If that communication was coming from Texas I would expect a bit more than that.
Remember they brought "Remember the Alamo", and this flag into America's culture of "Awww Hell NO!".

/me points to his location.

Pretty sure I have some expertise on the subject of Texans.

[tony d tiger]

To: Other Guys
From: Guys
Subject: Articles of Secession

Dear Sir/Madam,

We respectfully inform you that we find the decision of the government to be unacceptable, and so with regret will be withdrawing our support effective ...

If that communication was coming from Texas I would expect a bit more than that.
Remember they brought "Remember the Alamo", and this flag into America's culture of "Awww Hell NO!".

/me points to his location.

Pretty sure I have some expertise on the subject of Texans.

Makes for an interesting read...
https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/ent ... -it-cannon

[RonnyRonin]

Something I had not considered, but how does one conduct a shooting war amidst a pandemic?

And how does one conduct a secession when locked down?

Just some questions I had not thought to ask.

I am being facetious, but I think this is some food for thought.

I don't think the lockdown has significantly slowed down street protests or outdoor violence, if anything the pent up energy from being cooped up likely contributed to it. My first gut reaction was that a pandemic could actually reduce the number of civilian casualties in a civil war since people aren't congregating as much in public or at large gatherings; especially since large public gatherings are sometimes targets of terroristic violence during civil wars. Thinking about it more this is probably too optimistic, and the large street protests from either side would make tempting targets for the unscrupulous.

[NT2C]

Personally, I think this puts us much closer to a real war than the rioting earlier this year, that only involved a tiny minority of citizens. Thinking about 40% of the states as dissidents is a pretty big deal. I know "just move" is never an acceptable answer on ZS, but if things go hot and you are in a battleground area, GTFO would seem to be the best choice.

Yeah, at the moment I feel like I'm stranded behind enemy lines. If not for the pandemic we'd be living in Idaho right now, and I'd be breathing easier.

[PistolPete]

Well, as I expected the Texas lawsuit has been denied. This puts as at a crossroads, where Texas and other supporting states escalate or people say "an effort was made" and go about with their lives. My guess is the latter.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

Well, as I expected the Texas lawsuit has been denied. This puts as at a crossroads, where Texas and other supporting states escalate or people say "an effort was made" and go about with their lives. My guess is the latter.

I don't think the latter is going to happen. My guess is Texas and the other states that were in the lawsuit are going to gather more evidence (which is why the SCOTUS denied the suit initially. Lack of enough evidence) and bring it up to SCOTUS again.

From my understanding of the suit, Texas and the other states were suing because of voter integrity and since there's been confirmed proof of vote tampering, it's making the other states look like fools.

We're at a crossroads, I'll agree, but I don't think this is over just yet. This is 2000 and the hanging chads all over again, but on a larger and more blatant scale this time. Instead of one state having issues with the vote, it's several.

And I'm not going to go any further on this since I'm pretty sure I'm toeing the line on politics.

[williaty]

I don't think the latter is going to happen. My guess is Texas and the other states that were in the lawsuit are going to gather more evidence (which is why the SCOTUS denied the suit initially. Lack of enough evidence) and bring it up to SCOTUS again.

No, it was dismissed due to lack of standing. SCOTUS said that TX doesn't have the right to interfere in other states' constitutionally guaranteed right to conduct elections how they see fit.

From my understanding of the suit, Texas and the other states were suing because of voter integrity and since there's been confirmed proof of vote tampering, it's making the other states look like fools.

There has been no evidence, anywhere, of significant voter fraud. Multiple different bodies with expertise in this area have looked into it. All of them have certified the results as non-fradulent.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

I don't think the latter is going to happen. My guess is Texas and the other states that were in the lawsuit are going to gather more evidence (which is why the SCOTUS denied the suit initially. Lack of enough evidence) and bring it up to SCOTUS again.

No, it was dismissed due to lack of standing. SCOTUS said that TX doesn't have the right to interfere in other states' constitutionally guaranteed right to conduct elections how they see fit.

From my understanding of the suit, Texas and the other states were suing because of voter integrity and since there's been confirmed proof of vote tampering, it's making the other states look like fools.

There has been no evidence, anywhere, of significant voter fraud. Multiple different bodies with expertise in this area have looked into it. All of them have certified the results as non-fradulent.

Ok. Thanks for clearing that up, Williaty.

This whole election has been really odd.

ETA: Can we swing the topic back to how to prepare for a possible civil war ?

I'm fearing we're getting close to the "No politics" line and I'd rather not be the one to get the thread locked again.

PMs are, as usual, the preffered method to further discuss the SCOTUS rulings and any other potentially political topics.

[tony d tiger]

"Fearing" has long passed, we're into"resigned acceptance of" by now...

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

"Fearing" has long passed, we're into"resigned acceptance of" by now...

That may be true, but I'd rather we avoid any further drifting towards the "No politics" line.

Seeing as how I'm the one who started the thread drift, I may as well be the one to request that we get the thread back on track.

[NT2C]

It is very difficult to deal with our core mission of helping each other to prep for whatever comes our way when we have a hard restriction against discussion of the 800 lb gorilla in the room that just got fed a few tabs of LSD. To that end, I've done my best to try and wrap that hard restriction in a layer of padding so we don't get too hurt if we bump it, but it's still there and still restricting how we approach the subject. Given that I just read a news article reporting on a political party official openly saying that Texas and the other like-minded states "may want to consider forming their own union", which is nothing less than encouragement to secede, that restriction is being pushed to the breaking point.

As the admin of this site, I am bound to follow and enforce the rules that the ZS BoD have set for the site, but even if that were not the case I would be loathe to allow political discussion in the forums because of what it would do to this community that is more like family. Even the discussions we've been having leading up to this have cost us some members, despite intense moderation by the few mods left on the site. Anyone who thinks they have a way we can do things better is free to speak up, or drop a PM to me or any of the staff. We do listen to you all and carefully consider your suggestions.

[tony d tiger]

Well, as far as preps go, I've been carrying an old splitting maul in my car trunk for a couple years now; figured it'd make a halfway decent melee weapon if needed, without approaching the "burglar tools" description... but the Stanley FUBAR is calling to me. Beats buying another knife (that I don't need).

If it comes to civil war, basic tools and supplies will be more important to "bug in" on a property... dunno how it will play out for the folks in apartments and condos.