The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 16, 2020 3:14 pm

SCBrian wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 2:50 pm
It's been a long day, so my tank of common sense and ballistics is near empty. But why does the helmet pictured in the article look like the device is exiting and not entering?
If you are talking about "Aaron Cantu"'s helmet with the "flash ban grenade" in it...the image has a bunch of things wrong with it including the fact that it looks like it is exiting.

Your tank of common sense is more than adequate to spot BS at a site.

That picture was from a 2018 incident. It was not a grenade.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:08 pm

instead of a Boogaloo, how about a Boobaloo? What say the herd? :crazy:

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by NT2C » Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:13 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:08 pm
instead of a Boogaloo, how about a Boobaloo? What say the herd? :crazy:
Not exactly something I want in my browser history, given my predilection for nice Hawaiian shirts.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:08 pm
instead of a Boogaloo, how about a Boobaloo? What say the herd? :crazy:
Wasn't that what Desi Arnaz used to say on "I Love Lucy" ? :lol:

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by NT2C » Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:39 am

12_Gauge_Chimp wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 11:21 pm
MPMalloy wrote:
Wed Sep 16, 2020 9:08 pm
instead of a Boogaloo, how about a Boobaloo? What say the herd? :crazy:
Wasn't that what Desi Arnaz used to say on "I Love Lucy" ? :lol:
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:52 pm


I think this says a lot about the matter in terms exactly how many mistakes were made that day.
The city of Louisville, Ky., announced a $12 million settlement Tuesday in a wrongful death lawsuit filed by the family of Breonna Taylor.
I do not have the full facts to form an opinion on whether or not the matter rises to the level of criminal behavior...but this matter IMO rises well beyond a simple "sorry, here is some $$$ for your time and trouble". There needs to be full and complete answers with accountability for those actions/inactions in this matter. That is what appears to be in progress.

Let the truth come out and the chips fall where they may.

That said, street violence for political reasons by uninvolved 3rd parties is not acceptable and is an insult to the lawful citizens of the city who are clearly demanding an answer in this matter.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by CG » Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:57 pm

Just saw on the news that none of the officers involved in the death of Breonna Taylor will be charged.

Correction: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentu ... smsnnews11
LOUISVILLE, Ky. – A former detective with the Louisville police department has been indicted on felony charges of wanton endangerment after shooting into the apartments next door to Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old EMT who was killed in her own home by police.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by williaty » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:38 pm

CG wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:57 pm
Just saw on the news that none of the officers involved in the death of Breonna Taylor will be charged.

Correction: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentu ... smsnnews11
LOUISVILLE, Ky. – A former detective with the Louisville police department has been indicted on felony charges of wanton endangerment after shooting into the apartments next door to Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old EMT who was killed in her own home by police.
Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I face the choice of drive through riot central at riot oclock or get fired tonight :vmad:


ETA: In terms of assessing the risk of unrest, I think it's worth noting that the single officer who was indicted was not indicted for killing Breonna Taylor. The fact that no one is going to trial for her death is, IMO, likely to significantly inflame the current troubles.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by CG » Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:43 pm

williaty wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:38 pm
Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I face the choice of drive through riot central at riot oclock or get fired tonight :vmad:


ETA: In terms of assessing the risk of unrest, I think it's worth noting that the single officer who was indicted was not indicted for killing Breonna Taylor. The fact that no one is going to trial for her death is, IMO, likely to significantly inflame the current troubles.
Honestly, I think that might piss people off more than if they weren't charged at all.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by MPMalloy » Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:41 pm

williaty wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:38 pm
CG wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:57 pm
Just saw on the news that none of the officers involved in the death of Breonna Taylor will be charged.

Correction: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/kentu ... smsnnews11
LOUISVILLE, Ky. – A former detective with the Louisville police department has been indicted on felony charges of wanton endangerment after shooting into the apartments next door to Breonna Taylor, the 26-year-old EMT who was killed in her own home by police.
Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I face the choice of drive through riot central at riot oclock or get fired tonight :vmad:


ETA: In terms of assessing the risk of unrest, I think it's worth noting that the single officer who was indicted was not indicted for killing Breonna Taylor. The fact that no one is going to trial for her death is, IMO, likely to significantly inflame the current troubles.
Shit-canned? Really?

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by 12_Gauge_Chimp » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:10 pm

CG wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:43 pm
williaty wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 2:38 pm
Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately, I face the choice of drive through riot central at riot oclock or get fired tonight :vmad:


ETA: In terms of assessing the risk of unrest, I think it's worth noting that the single officer who was indicted was not indicted for killing Breonna Taylor. The fact that no one is going to trial for her death is, IMO, likely to significantly inflame the current troubles.
Honestly, I think that might piss people off more than if they weren't charged at all.
Yeah, I get the feeling things are going to go even more sideways than they have been already in recent weeks.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by PistolPete » Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:21 pm

Tonight is a night to focus on safety friends, and that likely holds true through the weekend. The decision by the grand jury in Louisville has people really fired up, more than I've seen with other specific incidents. Whatever you and I believe, the people who take to the streets saw the Breonna Taylor incident as a clean cut murder and see a lack of any related charges to be a slap in the face to any sort of justice. That has the protesters more likely to do stupid and violent things than most nights. Again, understanding their perspective is key, people are angry enough to fight over this one, where in previous incidents they've just been angry enough to yell for the most part. (not including the people who show up to break shit, they are omnipresent and always looking for an excuse) The tone in the discussions that I've seen is different this time.

Be prepared for this to fire up in most urban areas, there's already events starting in my city. I've spoke with dozens of the protesters this year and I really see this event going uglier than most. Good luck, watch your six and stay safe! This is the event that I see as coming closest to inspiring people to act to make the title of this thread come true of all we have seen so far. Remember that your life is worth more than property and don't let ego put you in a position where you are facing down a mob. The zombie euphemism is poignant today- never try to fight off a stagger of zombies by yourself- retreat and live to fight another day.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 6:25 pm

PistolPete wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 5:21 pm
Tonight is a night to focus on safety friends, and that likely holds true through the weekend. The decision by the grand jury in Louisville has people really fired up, more than I've seen with other specific incidents. Whatever you and I believe, the people who take to the streets saw the Breonna Taylor incident as a clean cut murder and see a lack of any related charges to be a slap in the face to any sort of justice. That has the protesters more likely to do stupid and violent things than most nights. Again, understanding their perspective is key, people are angry enough to fight over this one, where in previous incidents they've just been angry enough to yell for the most part. (not including the people who show up to break shit, they are omnipresent and always looking for an excuse) The tone in the discussions that I've seen is different this time.

Be prepared for this to fire up in most urban areas, there's already events starting in my city. I've spoke with dozens of the protesters this year and I really see this event going uglier than most. Good luck, watch your six and stay safe! This is the event that I see as coming closest to inspiring people to act to make the title of this thread come true of all we have seen so far. Remember that your life is worth more than property and don't let ego put you in a position where you are facing down a mob. The zombie euphemism is poignant today- never try to fight off a stagger of zombies by yourself- retreat and live to fight another day.
All good advice.

Some facts
There were 3 felony counts not just one.

Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron delivered the decision during a news conference Wednesday.
Cameron said a witness confirmed that the police officers knocked and announced their presence before entering the apartment.

“The grand jury voted to return an indictment against Hankison for three counts of wanton endangerment in the first degree,” he said, adding that his office is prepared to prove the charges in a trial.

The other two officers — Jonathan Mattingly and Myles Cosgrove — were not charged because their actions were justified in returning fire as Taylor’s boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, fired at them.
Hankinson’s indictment, the only one expected in the case, related to the discharging of his firearm in a manner that endangered individuals in apartments surrounding Taylors’ apartment and does not directly relate to Taylor’s death. According to Kentucky law, somebody can be found guilty of wanton endangerment in the first degree “when, under circumstances manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life, he wantonly engages in conduct which creates a substantial danger of death or serious physical injury to another person.”
The 12 grand jurors decided that the 10 rounds fired blindly by the indicted officer were unnecessary and thus wanton. Hence that indictment. I would tend to agree with that.

However since a witness confirmed that the police announced their presence AND the boyfriend fired the first shot, that the returned fire was justifiable and hence not negligent and wanton.

The other 11 witnesses said no such announcement was made.

The LEOs fired 20 rounds and hit Ms. Taylor 5 times. They however missed the boyfriend shooting at them while he was on a 911 call contacting the police.

That said Ms. taylor was clearly wrongfully killed in the crossfire because she was the one answering the door.

Yep ...
I see no decent answers in this matter.

I see lessons galore but no good answers...and no way to make this right.
IMO the city got off cheap with a $12 million settlement.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by majorhavoc » Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:26 pm

I want to say this is a case of diffusion of responsibility, but that's different term (the tendency of bystanders not to act in a situation clearly calling for action because no one person feels any more responsible than anyone else).

More like diffusion of accountability. An innocent woman is dead, but so many errors were committed on so many levels by so many different parties that no one person has been found to be directly responsible for her death. It's a shitty situation, but that's the grand jury's conclusion. From a prepping perspective, the operative takeaway here is that people aren't happy with that outcome and they're going to take their dissatisfaction to the streets.

I fear that what we see unfold in the coming nights may be but a taste of what's to come in about six weeks.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by tony d tiger » Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:52 pm

I wonder why these violent episodes are mostly at night?
Night will get longer soon, with both daylight savings and seasonal change.
At least, maybe, the season's weather may dampen participant's enthusiasm (pun intended).

Keep your powder dry, and your head on a swivel.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by williaty » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:23 pm

tony d tiger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:52 pm
I wonder why these violent episodes are mostly at night?
Night will get longer soon, with both daylight savings and seasonal change.
At least, maybe, the season's weather may dampen participant's enthusiasm (pun intended).

Keep your powder dry, and your head on a swivel.
People don't get off work from an office/manufacturing job until 5-6. Takes time to get off work and make your way to the protest. Then more unskilled service workers get off as stores close at 8-9-10pm. By that time, the (likely older and less excitable) people who have to work in the morning are thinking about going home while the (likely younger and more passionate) people are still full of energy. As the crowd starts changing makeup, the actions change. The late shift is, it seems, less likely to take it upon themselves to deal with the bad apples.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by williaty » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:23 pm

MPMalloy wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 4:41 pm
Shit-canned? Really?
Never underestimate the ability of OSU to not give a shit about its employees.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by tony d tiger » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:26 pm

williaty wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:23 pm
tony d tiger wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 8:52 pm
I wonder why these violent episodes are mostly at night?
Night will get longer soon, with both daylight savings and seasonal change.
At least, maybe, the season's weather may dampen participant's enthusiasm (pun intended).

Keep your powder dry, and your head on a swivel.
People don't get off work from an office/manufacturing job until 5-6. Takes time to get off work and make your way to the protest. Then more unskilled service workers get off as stores close at 8-9-10pm. By that time, the (likely older and less excitable) people who have to work in the morning are thinking about going home while the (likely younger and more passionate) people are still full of energy. As the crowd starts changing makeup, the actions change. The late shift is, it seems, less likely to take it upon themselves to deal with the bad apples.
I was going in a similar, but different direction - evening news cycle. :words:
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by M813 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:01 am

I was under the impression that most "protesters" are unemployed while all the working folks are too busy to get involved in this mess beyond watching the evening news? With historically high unemployment, there are hordes of people available to get involved.

Either way, we're staying clear of densely populated areas as much as possible.

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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by PistolPete » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:12 am

majorhavoc wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:26 pm
More like diffusion of accountability. An innocent woman is dead, but so many errors were committed on so many levels by so many different parties that no one person has been found to be directly responsible for her death. It's a shitty situation, but that's the grand jury's conclusion. From a prepping perspective, the operative takeaway here is that people aren't happy with that outcome and they're going to take their dissatisfaction to the streets.
I totally agree- lots of mistakes were made in the issuance and the execution of the warrant. The core issue is the system made errors, someone died and no one is being held accountable for that death. That makes people lose faith in the system, which makes people desperate and more likely to take "justice" into their own hands. A quote I saw last night from someone in Louisville was "We tried this the Martin way, now it's time to do it the Malcolm way.". I think that captured the sentiment I'm seeing pretty well.
M813 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 8:01 am
I was under the impression that most "protesters" are unemployed while all the working folks are too busy to get involved in this mess beyond watching the evening news? With historically high unemployment, there are hordes of people available to get involved.
I can't speak to Louisville, but I've been to scores of protests in St Louis, both as a participant and an observer. Last night there were 6 people arrested with light attendance and heavy police presence in my town. The crowds tend to be pretty standardized- a mix of college student aged kids, artists of all ages, clergy, stay at home moms, and all sorts of people from the local community. You see more people that look like service workers than people who look like construction workers. When I've gone straight after work there are other dudes in ties, but we are certainly under represented statistically. Are there unemployed people in presence? Certainly. Is it more than 10%? Not by my counting. The most over represented group is young, white suburban moms, they make up at least 25% of most demonstrations in my area.

Now, as the night gets later, the moms go home and the young people and I would assume unemployed become more statistically significant. But that's the same at the bars- around 11 the moms go home and by the time the doors close at 3a it's a very different group than it was at 7p.

Overall it was less ugly last night than I expected. If we make it through the weekend without it going off the rails, we may be in the clear. Hopefully this passes like the others without more significant violence.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by raptor2 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:49 am

PistolPete wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:12 am
majorhavoc wrote:
Wed Sep 23, 2020 7:26 pm
More like diffusion of accountability. An innocent woman is dead, but so many errors were committed on so many levels by so many different parties that no one person has been found to be directly responsible for her death. It's a shitty situation, but that's the grand jury's conclusion. From a prepping perspective, the operative takeaway here is that people aren't happy with that outcome and they're going to take their dissatisfaction to the streets.
I totally agree- lots of mistakes were made in the issuance and the execution of the warrant. The core issue is the system made errors, someone died and no one is being held accountable for that death. That makes people lose faith in the system, which makes people desperate and more likely to take "justice" into their own hands. A quote I saw last night from someone in Louisville was "We tried this the Martin way, now it's time to do it the Malcolm way.". I think that captured the sentiment I'm seeing pretty well.
Any success with the "malcolm" approach is short lived and always consumed by the followers of that approach at a later date.

Nothing will reverse the events that resulted in Ms. Taylor's death. There is a reason this world is referred to as the Vale of Tears for the last 2,000 +/- years.

The truth is that any system run by humans will make mistakes. Any system can and will be abused. There is no such thing as perfection.

Demolition and destruction is easy. Try to build something. It is hard and takes effort.
Effort and hard work are not elements in our core culture of instant gratification.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by PistolPete » Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:06 am

raptor2 wrote:
Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:49 am
Any success with the "malcolm" approach is short lived and always consumed by the followers of that approach at a later date.

Nothing will reverse the events that resulted in Ms. Taylor's death. There is a reason this world is referred to as the Vale of Tears for the last 2,000 +/- years.

The truth is that any system run by humans will make mistakes. Any system can and will be abused. There is no such thing as perfection.

Demolition and destruction is easy. Try to build something. It is hard and takes effort.
Effort and hard work are not elements in our core culture of instant gratification.
Agreed. I wasn't advocating for the approach, I was just stating the sentiment I saw on the ground to help people understand the mentality. And the no-knock system is already being used on red flag law issues, something that may well affect law-abiding ZS people one day. It's good to understand the system and how a series of small errors can end up with an unarmed woman dead in her home at the hands of that system. If there is no accountability, then there is less likely to be changes to that system.

Being prepared for disasters and emergencies means understanding the threats. I'd assert a system without proper checks that serves armed men to kick in doors of houses where no illegal activity is happening is certain a threat a reasonable prepper should include in their plans. Especially with the advancing of red flag laws, and members here both owning firearms and being active on the internet, it's worth consideration.

But back on topic, stay safe! Expect lots of demonstrations in major cities on this incident this weekend. It's a good time to make sure your fire extinguisher is ready to go, and even reasonable to have one in your car if you don't already.
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Re: The Coming Civil War - (Warning: No Politics)

Post by M813 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:00 pm

@PistolPete your breakdown of the demographics is interesting and not exactly what I expected.

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