New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDATE!

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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111t
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by 111t » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:16 pm

Sealegs wrote: I am all sorts of dissapointed with this and primarily with the choice of gas burner (Optimus Crux). The fact that it's rated at about 15minutes for boiling 1l of water comes in as a close second. :lol:

Anyhoo, I'm currently in the process of negotiating a liberation of one of these kits for "study", purely scientific.. :oops: Still, someone at purchasing and testing had a little too much of the ranger cool-aid to drink IMHO.
Very interesting. Not sure about those specs, Is the 15 minute boil for the trangia or the crux? and with or without a windscreen? It looks like without. I agree with you that it seems like a weak offering to me. I'm actually surprised that this sort of system might be a viable product in this day and age. One thing militaries hate is multiple and diverse types of fuel. It's hazardous, and difficult logistically to keep track of. It's one of the reasons trioxane is out. IAside from the general lack of canteen cups...Trioxane is not food, nor is it 'fuel' in the logistical sense. For general use, (not ECW OPS) the US trend has been toward MRE heaters, which are considered part of the food (since they're in the same package) Since most military vehicles eat jp-8, which is basically high grade kerosene, it makes sense that for ECW OPS, A stove with the ability to burn the same fuel as is already available in bulk would be a clear advantage. The Optimus nova has a nsn as well as the coleman 550b, both burn kerosene well. Also primus multifuel, omnifuel, msr-xgk, dragonfly and the optimus hiker+ burn kerosene well.

A couple of years ago there was a buzz around the interwebs about a joint project between msr and the us military called the Modular Individual Water Heater (MIWH)
which was supposed to be a dead simple jp-8 burning stove without a pump and very few moving parts. The technology was based on a tablet sized ceramic wick that pressurized the fuel using capillary action. I recall seeing a prototype on ebay and i heard that the 10th Mt. division was testing it... but nothing further. If you ask me, it probably turned out to be cheaper to purchase and issue off the shelf backpacking stoves, rather than re-invent the wheel. The premise seemed to be that trioxane needed to be replaced across the entire military, but it seems to me that, with mre heaters, the stove is a more specialized bit of gear.

Oh by the way, a consumer version of the MIWH was supposed to revolutionize the backpacking stove industry with an easy to use maintenance free liquid fuel stove. I suspect a call came down from the marketing department saying "look here R&D Department! Do you have any idea what the profit margin is on 8 oz of butane?! Why would we ever want to market something that lets the end user buy cheap kerosene from the gas station instead of premium fuel from us?! Why don't we all just forget the whole thing?!"

The katadyn offering does not have the jp-8 fuel advantage, rather it forces the supply chain to feed it specialty fuels and not only that... it seems that they expect different fuels to be supplied depending on the mission(!) It seems more convenient for Katadyn than anyone else.

Essentially it's a bunch of off the shelf stuff just looking for a new market. Katadyn has been some zany stuff... anybody see that canned cheesburger a while back?!

Anyway, thanks for posting this!!! If you manage to get your hands on one, I for one would be very interested in your opinion on it!
All the best!
-Paul

"A rifle behind every blade of grass?"
"No, but any blade of grass"

Ferrocerium...You know how to spell it... This is how you pronounce it...[fer-oh-seer-ee-uhm]
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by 111t » Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:21 pm

Duplicate post
Last edited by 111t on Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
All the best!
-Paul

"A rifle behind every blade of grass?"
"No, but any blade of grass"

Ferrocerium...You know how to spell it... This is how you pronounce it...[fer-oh-seer-ee-uhm]
Bushcraft/Dayhiking Kit
Three season 72 Hour Kit
Ledmark alcohol cookset!!!
New Production Kerosene Pressure Stoves!!!
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by Woods Walker » Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:40 pm

111t wrote: Oh by the way, a consumer version of the MIWH was supposed to revolutionize the backpacking stove industry with an easy to use maintenance free liquid fuel stove. I suspect a call came down from the marketing department saying "look here R&D Department! Do you have any idea what the profit margin is on 8 oz of butane?! Why would we ever want to market something that lets the end user buy cheap kerosene from the gas station instead of premium fuel from us?! Why don't we all just forget the whole thing?!"
I remember MSR had a capillary action stove which was supposed to hit the market. Sh@t there were some fancy photos and maybe even a review in Backpacker mag. :roll: I think the stove could have been made crazy simple and UL but MSR worked it into a little beast which was overly complex. It never did see the light of day.
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by Sealegs » Thu Mar 24, 2011 2:22 am

I've been in touch with the people who put this together to cover the spec. and the people who wrote the spec. in the first place. So this is their thought process on the thing.

The 15 minutes is the Trangia at some cold temperature. No-one could find a reliable number at this time at what the testing temp actually was. The Optimus is rated for 2-3 minutes or something like that according to the document.

The fuel issue is like an old TV re-run with the Swedish army. We've always used Sprit 35 (Denaturated alcohol.) but since this is not easy to come by when on foreign soil an alternative was needed. It had to be available most everywhere, easy to transport (low weight, can be shipped by air etc.) Apparently there were some issues with shipping Sprit 35 by air. So they settled on butane. There has been testing of several different multi fuel stoves, the Multi fuel ranger stove 08 is the most recent one that I can think of. But it had the draw backs of allot of moving parts and it takes a bit of training to get reliable using it. I'm guessing you can get butane canisters most everywhere. (The arguments against them that I've heard voiced are basically these: Extreme cold? Ruptured or burned, is it safer or less so than the alky bottle?)
TL;DR, they wanted the ability to use denaturated alcohol (old school eagles refusing to leave it, yes, I'm one of them.. :lol: ) while at the same time having the capacity to aquire fuel in most any AO. While wonder fuels are nice, if logistics goes down and you have to procure it in theatre, they wanted something common that fit the other bills. Why kerosene didn't fit this bill is also anyones guess..

The set up with the two pots struck me as odd but the thinking is that it'll cover what the old mess kit did but better (debatable). It's designed to fit in a mid sized pocket on the combat rig, also attacheable on all the other molle covered things like backpacks and so forth.

- You can hang either pot above an open fire with the little "Hanging device", a noosed wire with a carabiner.
- You can use the butane stove to heat water quickly, you can use both to make meals, you can use the alky if you run out of butane.
- You can bring just one of the pots in your webbing as backup. With either butane or alky.

While I understand this, it's hardly the pinnacle of field stove innovation. :? The thing that has gotten the most praise is the long Optimus spoon they added to the utensils. Why they didn't go for a spork instead of a whole set, what with two deep pots and only a lid for alternative plate, is anyones guess.

I've heard about a gasoline burner that was developed for use, really small, but I'm assuming it was ditched due to gas not being in fashion armywise anymore. I remember seeing that ceramic wick in use at a test and thinking I lived in "The future." :lol:

I foresee them having great troubles keeping the soldiers from replacing the Crux Light with a multifuel alternative. We use diesel oil for 95% of our vehicles.. Just saying. I spoke to a guy at procurement and he'll try to rustle one up, but like he said. You can get all this crap at the supermarket if you really wanted to. Except for the wire hanging thingy and you can make that with some wire and a crimper.

Favorite Katadyn product, the "cafeteria" instant coffee, powdered milk, sugar shaker. Good for 30 cuppas in the field. Not that I use sugar or milk, but that's basically emergency rations for me. :lol:
111t wrote:
Very interesting. Not sure about those specs, Is the 15 minute boil for the trangia or the crux? and with or without a windscreen? It looks like without. I agree with you that it seems like a weak offering to me. I'm actually surprised that this sort of system might be a viable product in this day and age. One thing militaries hate is multiple and diverse types of fuel. It's hazardous, and difficult logistically to keep track of. It's one of the reasons trioxane is out. IAside from the general lack of canteen cups...Trioxane is not food, nor is it 'fuel' in the logistical sense. For general use, (not ECW OPS) the US trend has been toward MRE heaters, which are considered part of the food (since they're in the same package) Since most military vehicles eat jp-8, which is basically high grade kerosene, it makes sense that for ECW OPS, A stove with the ability to burn the same fuel as is already available in bulk would be a clear advantage. The Optimus nova has a nsn as well as the coleman 550b, both burn kerosene well. Also primus multifuel, omnifuel, msr-xgk, dragonfly and the optimus hiker+ burn kerosene well.

A couple of years ago there was a buzz around the interwebs about a joint project between msr and the us military called the Modular Individual Water Heater (MIWH)
which was supposed to be a dead simple jp-8 burning stove without a pump and very few moving parts. The technology was based on a tablet sized ceramic wick that pressurized the fuel using capillary action. I recall seeing a prototype on ebay and i heard that the 10th Mt. division was testing it... but nothing further. If you ask me, it probably turned out to be cheaper to purchase and issue off the shelf backpacking stoves, rather than re-invent the wheel. The premise seemed to be that trioxane needed to be replaced across the entire military, but it seems to me that, with mre heaters, the stove is a more specialized bit of gear.

Oh by the way, a consumer version of the MIWH was supposed to revolutionize the backpacking stove industry with an easy to use maintenance free liquid fuel stove. I suspect a call came down from the marketing department saying "look here R&D Department! Do you have any idea what the profit margin is on 8 oz of butane?! Why would we ever want to market something that lets the end user buy cheap kerosene from the gas station instead of premium fuel from us?! Why don't we all just forget the whole thing?!"

The katadyn offering does not have the jp-8 fuel advantage, rather it forces the supply chain to feed it specialty fuels and not only that... it seems that they expect different fuels to be supplied depending on the mission(!) It seems more convenient for Katadyn than anyone else.

Essentially it's a bunch of off the shelf stuff just looking for a new market. Katadyn has been some zany stuff... anybody see that canned cheesburger a while back?!

Anyway, thanks for posting this!!! If you manage to get your hands on one, I for one would be very interested in your opinion on it!
austere [ɒˈstɪə]adj
1. stern or severe in attitude or manner
2. grave, sober, or serious
3. self-disciplined, abstemious, or ascetic
4. severely simple or plain an austere design
[from Old French austère, from Latin austērus sour, from Greek austēros astringent; related to Greek hauein to dry]

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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by 111t » Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:33 pm

The Nova would be an ideal candidate for an easy to maintain multi fuel burner. The only trouble is, that since katadyn bought optimus and changed the quick connect design, there have been both reliability and SAFETY issues with the new design. I don't understand why they had to mess with the original design. :?

I basically don't recommend it to friends anymore. My current fave regulated model is the primus omnifuel... but i also really like the older style loop generator type primus multifuel.

A lot of the reliability issues regarding multifuel stoves revolve around the pumps. The msr style plastic pumps tend to be over complicated and easily damaged. The newest version of the standard msr pump is arguably the best so far... but plastic melts. The more traditional metal tube/plungershaft pumps made by optimus and primus tend to be more robust... but the new model primus incorporates a plastic bottle connection. ( :evil: ! :evil: ) The optimus pump is mostly metal and the only plastic, vital exposed part is inside the bottle (fuel take up tube) and therefore mostly protected against fire damage. In any event, the optimus or primus style pumps are much more durable than plastic, requiring infinitely less numbers of yearly maintenance kits. (once again with the optimus quick connect issue being an unacceptable flaw)

I always remember a story i read about some primus 41's that were entombed in an abandoned sledge in antarctica for decades and then lit up first try.
All the best!
-Paul

"A rifle behind every blade of grass?"
"No, but any blade of grass"

Ferrocerium...You know how to spell it... This is how you pronounce it...[fer-oh-seer-ee-uhm]
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by Pooker » Mon May 02, 2011 9:00 pm

I finally found one for a good price! Well, it's just the stove, windscreen and fuel bottle, so I'll still need to find the mess kit. For $9.99 how can you go wrong? :mrgreen:
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by Sealegs » Tue May 03, 2011 12:09 pm

If you want it on the cheap you can substitute the actual "bucket" for a German mess kit with some minor mods to the wind screen.
austere [ɒˈstɪə]adj
1. stern or severe in attitude or manner
2. grave, sober, or serious
3. self-disciplined, abstemious, or ascetic
4. severely simple or plain an austere design
[from Old French austère, from Latin austērus sour, from Greek austēros astringent; related to Greek hauein to dry]

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111t
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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by 111t » Fri May 06, 2011 9:24 pm

Perhaps slightly off topic... but check out this clever little trick if you want to go lightweight with your trangia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=699iapsl ... ety_mode=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty clever really. some 3" nails should do nicely.
All the best!
-Paul

"A rifle behind every blade of grass?"
"No, but any blade of grass"

Ferrocerium...You know how to spell it... This is how you pronounce it...[fer-oh-seer-ee-uhm]
Bushcraft/Dayhiking Kit
Three season 72 Hour Kit
Ledmark alcohol cookset!!!
New Production Kerosene Pressure Stoves!!!
Car Emergency Preparedness Kit

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Re: New To Me...Swedish Mess Kit! Now With Another Kit UPDAT

Post by xxxDarksidexxx » Fri May 06, 2011 10:29 pm

111t wrote:Perhaps slightly off topic... but check out this clever little trick if you want to go lightweight with your trangia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=699iapsl ... ety_mode=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Pretty clever really. some 3" nails should do nicely.
very nice!

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