Woods Walker’s E&E challenge.

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Woods Walker’s E&E challenge.

Post by Woods Walker » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:43 pm

Woods Walker’s E&E challenge.

I have been working on posting my E&E. An E&E better known as Escape and Evasion bag is a small detachable pack that mates with a larger host pack. This is reproduced in civilian packs via detachable day packs. Some hikers opt for a detachable daypack when away from camp. They will take along the basics for a day hike. These include a small FAK, Poncho or UL rainjacket, Fleece jacket or synithedic shirt, some food and water. Maybe other items like cellphones etc.

http://www.ospreypacks.com/Packs/SideOrders/Daylite/

For military packs there are similar solutions. The Molle Patrol pack and Kifaru E&E/Scout pack are good examples. Being non military I can only guess as to the uses of the patrol/E&E pack but thinking the descriptions alone describes the intended use.

http://www.eagleindustries.com/prd_deta ... SubCatID=1

http://www.kifaru.net/MGscout.htm

http://www.kifaru.net/MGe&e.htm

For the record I am not in the military nor have I ever tried to escape and evade from anything other than my responsibilities. However here are some aspects to a detachable day/E&E pack that I think are important.

1. Should be able to mount and detach from the parent pack easily.

2. Have a capacity between 500 to 1500 ci. These are just guidelines not set numbers.

3. Should be under 8-10lbs. Too much and it will make the main load off balanced.

4. Should have minimal gear duplication with parent pack. Too much duplication will increase overall weight and bulk of the whole system to unacceptable levels.

5. Parent pack should still have critical gear items incase the E&E/Daypack is separated from the main system. This means if you pack two lighters maybe one should be kept in the E&E and the other in the parent pack.

6. Unlike a day pack that is often setup for a day hike the E&E should be able to stand on its own. For example could be used as a Get Me Home Bag or a small BOB if forced to abandon the main system. So critical items like shelter, raingear, hat, water storage, water purification and cordage etc… etc… should be included.

I am certain there are other qualifications and my list is by no means the best for everyone but I think people get the point. So how about a little E&E smack down? For those that have one let’s see what you got.

Here is my E&E. I will post a thread on the contents and refer the link under this topic later today.

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Post by Cerberus » Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:54 pm

I don't have a true E&E pack, since my GHB doesn't attach directly to my BOB. However, the reason that I chose the SO Tech GoBag is that I can wear it like a fanny pack when I have the BOB on. When I loop the BOB's waist belt under the Go bag, it seems to ride fairly well. I haven't taken it very far though.

Also, my contents are far from complete because my pack is mostly empty at this point. And even though nothing I will put up will beat WW, I can submit my GHB.

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Post by Dak Kovar » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:43 am

This will be a good excuse to finish a project I wanted to start. I just don't know how soon I'll be ready. It will be good to see what others come up with.
I had one set up before and took it apart to make my walk out bag. I have been wanting to redo my small camelback MULE for quick day hikes. It fits the bill for this build.
Here we go again,
DK
Last edited by Dak Kovar on Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by quazi » Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:49 am

The pack I just ordered has a detachable top lid. I'm hoping I can attach one or more straps to it so that I can use it as a murse or backpack. If not, I have a Novara Big Drop hydration pack. It's a nice little pack that I should be able to strap to the outside of my main pack fairly easily. It's not the best option for E&E, as it's fire engine red and covered in reflective piping. Unfortunately it is currently in the posession of my thieving little brother, so I can't take pictures.
Here's a picture I found on the web:
Image

I'm going home in about a month, then I can post some real pictures.

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Post by Woods Walker » Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:09 am

Cerberus.

No winners or losers in this thread. I am looking to pick the brains of others to enhance my E&E.

DK.

One big pro of this project is that very little extra gear is needed as nearly all of the stuff can come from the host pack. Maybe a little redundancy with Mylar blankets and lighters etc. As it is the cost of fielding 3 packs is killer. 3 headlamps, multiple sil ponchos/tarps, a pile of Ti cookware and all the other duplications have put me in the poor house. Then there are the multiple tipis and stoves.

Quazi

I think a detachable top counts just fine as most have at least two or four female buckles that could be connected to a makeshift shoulder strap.

My E&E is now posted.

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28512

Holly shit it is now 2am. Looks like another night spent f@cking around on ZS. :shock: If this zombie apocalypse thing does not pan out I am going to feel foolish.
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Post by Molon Labe » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:29 am

I like your choice in E&E/GHB. I plan on upgrading my own, to a Camelback H.A.W.G. in foliage green, in the near future.
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Post by Jamie » Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:24 am

I'm gonna rework my old E&E bag and post some pics in the next few days...thanks for the thread WW!

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Post by ikkyu » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:50 pm

Woodswalker, just let me know if you want me to move this/kill it. not trying to thread jack but just felt it would fit here with out a new thread.

Taking a look at WW challenge and at his great E & E pack has helped me decide how to proceed. I want the whole shabang of ZS to put in there two cents on my E&E/GHB. It will be a social exercise, I will be willing listen to debate from all sides, the more the better, I will retain the final decision, as this is to keep me alive.

My requirements, not as stringent as WW’s:
I work about 22 miles from home, less as the crow flies but not much. WCS I would have to travel through lightly forested, urban, and swampy terrain, not to mention crossing one major body of water.

My pack is a little modular job that I plan to always keep in the car. The main compartment is 16 X 12 X 5. the secondary pouch is about 9 X 9 X 3. Attached pods are
1: 6 X 6 X 5
2: 7 X 71/2 X 4
3: 12 X 6 X 4

I’ll get pics up in a day or so, got to find my camera.

This will be usable as a pack and also lash on to my INCH. I’m not going to cheap out, but I’m not planning on spending seven hundred dollars on a flashlight either. So let the debate begin! What should the pack be filled with?

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Post by Woods Walker » Tue Apr 15, 2008 3:30 pm

ikkyu.

Sounds great. Post the photos. :D
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Post by misanthropist » Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:36 pm

I like your kit...I keep what is either a E&E kit or a GHB, not really sure which. It's in a Maxpedition Fat Boy and it's a nearly-EDC or else it rides in my truck in a pocket of my dedicated truck gear.

1. Maxpedition Fatboy
2. surefire 6p defender
3. 1l water bottle, with 1 more available in truck in case I think I need it
4. 3 bic lighters
5. 2 pencils, 2 ballpoint pens, one sharpie
6. leatherman supertool 200
7. first aid kit containing mostly gauze, nonadherent pads, abd. pads, gloves, tape, hand sanitizer
8. 8-12 eat-more bars depending how hungry I've been recently
9. Scrapyard Guard knife
10. rain jacket
11. red microlight-type led with strobe option
12. white microlight-type led
13. button-type compass
14. "rite in the rain" waterproof notepad
15. 50 ft parachute cord
16. 50 ft lighter weight flat cord from mec...probably ~150 lb test
17. spare keys for truck, house, gun safe, tool box
18. dmt folding sharpening stone (or 2, at least coarse in there but sometimes fine as well.)
19. deerskin gloves
20. spare n-cells for the Eotech
21. spare c123's for the surefire

I think that's everything that's in there. The intent is to allow me to ditch the truck and hoof it if I absolutely have to. I guess it's either a GHB or an urban E&E...I'm unlikely to have to run headlong into the woods so I don't plan my gear around that!

The truck gear would be a long list...extensive tool setup, all the fluids a truck can use up including 25l gas...spare hoses, radiator clamps, axle grease, wire, tape, turfer-type winch with about 100' of 3/8" cable, ropes, cordage, axe, tarp, ammo, M14 in folding stock with eotech...man, I'd have to think about that for a long time to get it all down! Jack, 2 spare tires, tire sealant, tire puncture kit, special service tools for the truck...I could go on!
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Post by Woods Walker » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:41 pm

I hear your cry about truck gear. I pack all kinds of stuff in the truck. I put it most of it inside my Medium Alice pack as it does not have a frame and fits behind the seat along with the E&E if packed. The Magellan GPS was added as it has a setting for “Least Freeways”. Thinking the back roads have a less chance of being shut down in an emergency and being a highway driver I don’t know all the back road routs. I have a paper map but hate the whole Idea of paging through it. Items like jumper cables, auto tool and the like are there. Water and food are also available.
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Post by Abacus » Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:52 pm

I don't have an E&E pack as much as I have an E&E smock.
My para smock and belt carry all my E&E kit:

Pens & notebook
FFD , FAK, pills and moleskin
Poncho
Compass, map, whistle, flare
Matches, lighter, loupe, tow
Earplugs
Vinyl tape,
Spare glasses
Paracord
Binoculars
Mittens
Cap
Survival tin
Space blanket
TP
Cliff bars
Few MRE entree's
Cyalume
Shemagh
Sniper veil
Gerber multi tool (belt)
Gerber folder (belt)
Mini mag (belt)
Canteen w/cup & WP tabs (belt)

As it is the contents of your pockets, all of the E&E kit stays on your person at all times, the belt may be removed to sleep, but if so it's fastened closed and looped around an arm.
It's not perfect, but it's useful, and light. Distributed through the multiple smock pockets, it's barely noticeable.
ImageImage

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Post by ikkyu » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:44 am

My ideals so far for inclusion:

A. Water
1. Camelbak classic….it will slip into the bag but can also be separated for use, if I need to ditch the main bag.
2. 20 Water purification tablets

B. Shelter
1. Poncho mil- spec
2. OK stay with me… I’m in FL and I have the ideal for a custom simple bag.
I’m going to have a friend, my personal Tacticool tailor, wrap a survival blanket around a fleece sleeping bag and stitch them together.

C. Navigation
1. Compass
2. Maps, both satellite photo and topo, printed on rite in the rain paper
3. GPS. I’m looking at a Rino so it gives me a link to my wife also.

D. Fire
1. Firesteel
2. lighter
3. folding stove (Esbit style)/ fuel tab
4. Vaseline cotton balls

E. Assorted
1. 50’ ft 550 cord
2. 1 folding razor knife
3. 5 blades for razor knife
4. 10 zip ties
5. 1 set thermal under layer
6. 4 mainstay bars
7. 2 stripped MRE’s
8. 1 .40 cal Springfield XD
9. 2 mags for XD
10. fixed blade full tang knife
11. instant charger for cellphone
12. surefire G2 light
13. spare batteries for G2
14. 2 pair extra socks

F. FAK
1. C.A.T.
2. Israeli dressing
3. Gauze
4. bandaids
5. kerflex
6. iodine
7. superglue
8. quick clot

where does it go from here?

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Post by LilDaemon » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:04 am

Jvandenhaus wrote:I don't have an E&E pack as much as I have an E&E smock.
Pictures?

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Post by dogbane » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:17 pm

Old-school outdoorsmen like Horace Kephart and Nessmuk carried shell bags in addition to their packs. The shell bag would be slung over the shoulder and carried under the arm, then the pack put on the back over the strap. It would then be easy to shuck the pack and run carrying just your shell bag with your essentials. This would save the time of detaching it from the pack, while also being accessible at all times.

A Duluth shell bag:
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Frost River sells a larger one than Duluth has, measuring 13x16x4, which comes to 832 ci.
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Post by Jamie » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:02 am

I just posted my ZARTWEEB...

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Post by meanstreak » Sun Apr 20, 2008 10:27 am

Here's mine:

Image

It sits in a simple messenger bag that i got at Target. So nothing fancy but does work fine.

Buck Nighthawk
Leatherman Multi-Tool
Bandana
2 Glock 19 Mags loaded with Federal hydra shocks and Gold Dot HP
20 extra rounds of Federal Hydrashocks
Emergency blanket
Wet ones
50 feet of 550 paracord
3 Powerbars
Frontier Emergency Filter System
Cutter advanced bug spray
2 light sticks
Surefire G2 with extra bulb and batteries
2 Packs of all weather matches
1 bottle of water purification tabs
4 duracell batteries
1 Zip lock bag
1 set of boniculars
1 Allergy Tab
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Post by Dak Kovar » Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:48 pm

I think this is a great thread that deserves more attention.

Most of my stuff is loaded into my Camelback HAWG. It is now kind of a tool closet for survival now and bit much for the 'run and hide' kind of thing.

My old style Camelback MULE is what I have used since '91. It has seen hundreds of hours of abuse/use. It is still fully functional. I have even used it on vacation, fishing, road trips, motorcycle rides, climbing, and a host of other activities. This is what I would pack (from the HAWG) for any foray on foot to include a last ditch E&E. I can cram quite a bit of kit into it and it was my sole 'walk out bag' until I started hanging around here and started adding stuff.
Image]
Image
The old style army pouches are held in place by zip ties. I added them for rifle cleaning kit stuff and the center pouch for misc. stuff but my camera fits like a glove.

As part of my overall kit it stays with my INCH ruck (empty most of the time) and I pull it to use as needed. I still use it all the time.

So this is my E&E bag.
DK
Last edited by Dak Kovar on Fri May 09, 2008 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jeriah » Thu May 01, 2008 4:41 pm

Woods,

Check out my BOB thread to see what I did with mine (Kifaru E&E).

I really love having the Woodman's Pal in its flat sheath in the slot pocket. I don't carry it there when it's on the main pack, although I could, but throwing it in there really keeps anything in the E&E from jabbing me in the back. I've got a simple cardboard sheath on the Woodman's Pal to keep it from cutting my pack, and also to function as a sort of ersatz framesheet.

Plus it means you've got a Woodman's Pal if you need one.
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Post by Woods Walker » Fri May 09, 2008 12:18 am

DK.

Nice little pack.

Jeriah.

Your new avatar freaks me out on many levels and it much appreciated. :D I never could get into the woodsman’s Pal. The INCH bag has a multitool, hatchet and D2 Ka-bar. For me that is enough tools. Maybe a small backup pocket knife could be added but that is about it. I don’t have any real reason for not getting a woodsman’s Pal beyond a general fear of change. :oops:

I keep the multitool inside the E&E. The rest of the tools remain inside the EMR. I use the slot pocket for a hydration packet.

Image

Image

For me the primary concerns are water and exposure risks. With the poncho/survival blanket and supplemental clothing items such as my hat, gloves and socks these exposure risks are somewhat mitigated. Water is handled with the 70oz Platy and 14 oz canteen fishing system. So the slot pocket is used to hold the Platy as show in the above photos. I used the canteen last weekend for a little fishing. Only did an hour in some questionable ponds. This only produced a few hit and a dropped fish. Used a fly so guessing if I spent the time to dig worms things would have worked out better. But overall I was able to play the line far better than a normal drop line system.

I am thinking about adding my Thermolite bivy to replace the blanket.
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Post by Jeriah » Fri May 09, 2008 6:46 am

Woods Walker wrote:DK.

Nice little pack.

Jeriah.

Your new avatar freaks me out on many levels and it much appreciated. :D
It's a detail from a painting I did. You can see the whole thing on my website (www.jeriahhildwine.com). It's pretty freakin' awesome if I do say so myself.
I never could get into the woodsman’s Pal. The INCH bag has a multitool, hatchet and D2 Ka-bar. For me that is enough tools. Maybe a small backup pocket knife could be added but that is about it. I don’t have any real reason for not getting a woodsman’s Pal beyond a general fear of change. :oops:
For your area it looks like a hatchet would see more use than a Woodman's Pal, anyway. I like mine, but I haven't used it for anything other than smashing coconuts in my backyard. I need to get some more outdoor time in. Right now, my job is a normal 5 days a week, which is fine, but they're non-consecutive, which makes it hard to take weekend trips anywhere.
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Post by TC » Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 am

I've been working on an E&E/grab and run bag for a while and this thread motivated me to finish it off.

Being in the city, I would prefer not to have to use my ALICE pack if I had to just grab a bag and run. I have the ALICE for long term bug outs where I have had time to assess the situation and know that I may be hiking for a long distance to get to my BOL.

Since things in the city could get bad really fast, especially considering that I live next to an international train hub, I wanted a bag that I could keep packed all the time and leave near the door. Pretty much just set and forget.

Here it is:

Image

Image

It's a Camelbak MULE, with the reservoir inside the main pouch (as opposed to using the space for storage).

I've got a CAT and ETD for first aid. Space is limited, so I just put in things that I thought would preserve my life or someone else's for as long as possible until medical attention can be received. I'm not going for full FAK sufficiency, just the most essential things.

I have 2 MRE main meals with the flameless heaters packed inside the boxes, 20 water purification tablets and a folding KFS.

The usual duct tape and nylon chord are there, as well as a large bin bag, cam paint (probably unnecessary, but you never know), some tissue paper for when nature calls, some pens and a bunch of chemlights (maybe a few too many, but I got a great deal on a bulk shipment so I am pretty excited).

The mini mess tin is water tight and holds some matches (weather proof and regular, cotton wool, firesteel, cash, a crappy little multi tool and a pencil with more duct tape.

Lastly is my KA-BAR, which I threw in mainly because I haven't had a chance to show it off yet. If things really go south, then it'll be the best weapon I have available to me that I can carry while running away.

I've carried it around a bit, and I have found it very comfortable and perfect for being able to run in, unlike the ALICE pack.

It still needs more maps and a compass, but I have a mini map and compass in my field jacket so it isn't all that bad. I'm toying with putting the LED flashlight from my GHB in there too.

I'd be glad to hear what you guys think!

EDIT: I forgot... there is a bandanna and spare socks in there too.

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Post by Dak Kovar » Fri May 09, 2008 1:27 pm

TC, without getting specific about the contents, I think you are going in the right direction. Your MULE is a lot different than mine (mine's old).

In addition to any E&E pack it would be possible to put additional item/supplies into the cargo pockets of a pair of BDU style pants. There are a number of sources to get these in single (non cammo) colors to maintain that low profile while allowing much greater storage.

An old army trick I used to use was to put an extra pair of socks in each bloused pant leg. Had the Russians attacked (and we were overrun) I'd still have some spare socks with which to run to England with. For our purposes, putting items like spare socks and other light items into the cargo pockets makes room for other items in the pack.

As for content, I guess it all depends on how far you want to take it. What I mean by that is: Do you want to have a dedicated/packed E&E kit of the most advanced (small) materials available on the order fighter pilots survival vest only.. or.. Do you want to have the means (knowledge) to select specific items from your other gear and the means to carry it?

TC many of the items in your E&E kit are things I have in my BOB. I don't think your selection is wrong, it is just different. I tend to think of the term E&E in military terms. To me that means behind enemy lines and trying to reach Switzerland.

For OUR discussion I think of the bare minimum I would want/need to walk 50 miles as quickly as possible. Since I don't know which stretch of 50 miles I would have to walk I do not know specifically what I would take. I would take different things if I were to walk 50 miles of highway than if I were to walk 50 miles of timber. Of course there would be standard overlap, such as mole skin, fires steel and compass.

Further, anything I would take in my E&E bag is already contained in my BOB (field closet). Since I use my MULE for so many different activities it is hard to 'keep it packed'. I just pull from my BOB what I need for what I'm doing and put it in the MULE. However, depending on things like weather, I could just strip down the BOB and run with it. For me having a dedicated/completely packed E&E pack, in addition to my BOB, INCH, Cold weather Duffle and all the other crap is another item too much.

Do I think you are wrong in anyway for having a dedicated E&E pack? No I don't. Should you do something different? That's up to you. I don't think there is any one right answer for this. We should just learn from each other and find our own path. At least that is my opinion.

As for chem lights: Yeah you may have too many but you are the one who has to carry it so... OT, I was forced by circumstance one time to figure a way to get light to the end of a wrench, so I could see the bolt. I taped a light stick to the wrench and it worked like a charm.

M2C,
DK
"I don't wan't to be the ruler of this world... I want to be the ruler of another world."
"Well he should have armed himself...if he's gonna decorate his saloon with my friend."
"...And you can keep that silly fat wanker. The lads can't lift him."

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Woods Walker
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Post by Woods Walker » Fri May 09, 2008 3:40 pm

Unless I missed it a LED headlamp would be in order. Also the Chem lights are not really all that pratical unless someone is doing that paracord/chemlight signalling trick. The Ka-bar is the cat’s ass. Same for the Firesteel. I couldn’t tell but if you don’t have one consider a hat. Also a poncho is worth more than anything else for a small E&E as this covers raingear and shelter. I see some paracord but it doesn’t look like enough. I carry a minium of 50 feet in my E&E. The extra socks should not be cotton.

I didn’t see any tabs/filters etc. This next to the poncho are madatory. Dehydration and exposure are the biggest risks in my view.
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"There's no such thing as bad weather, just inappropriate clothing"
"Do not mess with the forces of Nature, for thou art small and biodegradable!"

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