Please help with the design stage of my B.O.B system

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Please help with the design stage of my B.O.B system

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:02 pm

Okay, the fact that the bug out bag tiered system outlined below is only "on paper" at the moment is the whole point of this thread...

:oops:

i've been focussing the google-fu on the project for a while now and am close to what i think is a reasonable "first draft" of components but before i get to the ultra fine tuning stage let alone investing the signifigant chunk of change involved i'd like to throw the lines open and get the input of the zombie squad.

8)

The b.o.b system will cover a wide range of uses from the core job of bob/inch when disasters strike to frequent overnighters, camping and hunting trips or opportunities. Also my work often takes me on solo trips far into the australian rural countryside so the chance of a survival situation is somewhat higher (remote breakdown/car accident/lost with little daylight left) than usual...

...so the b.o.b system will be in the car (undercover) a lot of the time.

system design thus far is as follows with linkage for easy reference

EDC Maxpedition Remora with Maxpedition Monkey Combat Admin Pouch on the flap not the front pocket (and maybe a chewbacca style Maxpedition Janus or smaller pouches on the strap).

http://www.milspecmonkey.com/pouches/ma ... front1.jpg

this is the mcap on the front pocket of the remora not on the flap as i'd like... http://www.milspecmonkey.com/pouches/ma ... mcap-2.jpg

http://www.milspecmonkey.com/pouches/ma ... goods1.jpg

when the backpack/s below are being worn i envision wearing the remora/mcap on my chest giving me access to all the torch, multitool, big folding knife, etc goodness inside and if i have to drop the backpack/s i still have my first line gear in the remora/mcap and on my belt...

BOB/INCH Kifaru ZXR with XTL, Long Pockets but with a Eberlestock Gunslinger dock 'n' locked where most would have a Kifaru E&E or Back Pocket.

http://www.kifaru.net/MG_ZXR4.htm

http://www.eberlestock.com/GS05MT%20front%20sm.jpg

http://www.eberlestock.com/GS05M%20trio.jpg

http://www.eberlestock.com/Gunslinger%20M%20Series.htm

here's my first "designer" sticking point - does anyone know if an eberlestock gunslinger would work on a ZXR?

In the gunscabbard integral to the gunslinger i could discretely stuff the Steyr Scout or Tactical Elite i've got my eye on as well as (arguably) my little BRNO .22lr carbine. The gunslinger would function as a 1-3day assault type pack and would feature my SLEEP/SHELTER SYSTEM attached to it's sides in either more Kifaru Long Pockets or something like Esstac's Hydration Pouches. A mummy bag (like gunny's talon?), silk liner, Kifaru woobie, and an emphatex bivvy bag would all be stuffed into individual SeatoSummit compression Fartsacks and then into the side pocket on one side and my Snowy Mountain Biker Swag (swag has an inbuilt sleeping pad/mattress too) on the other. The balance of the sleep/shelter system (emphatex poncho/shelters and auscam hootchietarp - plus whatever didn't fit in the first side pocket) would be in a buttpack style pouch on the gunslinger or belt order.

A bigger tent like the Eureka 2man combat tent or similar might be in the ZXR for longer camping, more people, INCHyness.

FAK duty would be met in a tiered system as well with a small IFAK on the EDC remora (something like the maxpedition FR1?). Currently i'm thinking an Emdom B.O.M.B on the the top of the gunslinger and an Emdom 3"W.L.F on the top of the XTL on the ZXR.

http://www.maxpedition.com/store/pc/vie ... roduct=404

http://www.emdomusa.com/images/Bombmedi ... l-load.JPG
http://www21.serrahost.com/emdomusa/Detail.bok?no=14

http://www.emdomusa.com/images/Fattie-W ... edical.jpg
http://www21.serrahost.com/emdomusa/Detail.bok?no=7

i can see Emdom Grobes on each of the FAK pouches as well http://www21.serrahost.com/emdomusa/Detail.bok?no=12

here's the second "designer" sticking point - is exterior FAK pouches as just outlined better or something internal in the packs like the Kifaru Foldout system that some of you guys use? what are the pro's and con's of each method?

cooking/mess kit i'm currently liking the idea of a modernized g.i style stove, cup, etc wrapped around a g.i 1quart canteen but in a Maxpedition Thermite which would give me extra space for cooking stuff, food and water purification all in the same pouch. Also even though the ZXR and the Gunslinger feature extensive hydration bladder capacity (which i fully intend to take advantage of) i really like woods walker's idea of having a seperate solid canteen for collecting water, purifying, etc...

http://www.militarymorons.com/misc/img/max3.jpg (user name and password are both mm)

On the both sides of the waist belts of the ZXR and Gunslinger i'm thinking of getting Kitbag australia to modify or custom up something like the Kifaru Stashit (discrete, discrete, discrete) to take 4 each 10 shot mags for the Steyr with a Maxpedition MM RolyPoly on each left side "stashit" (i'm right handed) as a dump pouch. i'm thinking i shouldn't need torches, etc in a stashit on a waist belt as they are in the remora's mcap in chest mode when the backpack/s are being worn...

http://www.kifaru.net/MG_stash.htm

Of course there's a whole heap of hardware and other equipment (wis flint & steel, e-tool, yada yada yada) i'm looking at but i'll cover that stuff in the appropriate places later on...


My houses i have for sale are at the "offers" stage so it's not far away.

:D

I really look forward to any feedback you folks have on what i have planned thus far.

p.s: We had a Tsunami alert the other day, i'd just moved and everything except what i edc right now is was still in boxes. Didn't i want my proposed b.o.b system all ready purchased practised and in the car right then and there! :shock:

-
Last edited by Tetra Grammaton Cleric on Tue Sep 25, 2007 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

Squirrley
* * * * *
Posts: 6672
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:35 pm
Location: Boulder, CO/Trinidad, CO

Post by Squirrley » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:08 pm

Looks like a very nice setup. I wish I had the kind of money required to do that =P
Gundown wrote:Then I saw the bear and thought... holy shit this rum is fucking awesome!
Image

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:16 pm

squirrley wrote:Looks like a very nice setup. I wish I had the kind of money required to do that =P
thanks squirrley, it should be cool (if it works) - the moneys only coming from a seperation/divorce and the neccessary sale of assets (the houses) so it's a "take the good with the bad" type situation.

i probably won't have this kind of money in one spot at the same time available for gearwhore spendage again for a long time so i'm going to take advantage... :( :) :D :lol:

-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

Squirrley
* * * * *
Posts: 6672
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:35 pm
Location: Boulder, CO/Trinidad, CO

Post by Squirrley » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:43 pm

I know if I ever win the lotto, one of the first people I'm calling is Kifaru.
Gundown wrote:Then I saw the bear and thought... holy shit this rum is fucking awesome!
Image

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:47 pm

squirrley wrote:I know if I ever win the lotto, one of the first people I'm calling is Kifaru.
amen to that brother squirrley, amen to that.

:)
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:46 pm

okay, so i had another thought based along the lines of jeriah's boy scout handbook quote "a scout's bag should be a bag of bags"...

...there's a member/registered user (i can't remember who) who works for an equipment/vest/pouch manufacturer as a quality controller. he had a post where he showed off a fak pouch that was detachable from it's mountings.

maybe i should be looking at that one rather than the emdom b.o.m.b on the gunslinger with a simple shoulder strap tucked in behind it, as it would allow external to the gunslinger use when needed?

it fits in with the continuity of the multi tiered/layered concept because the xtl detaches from the zxr as a seperate bag as well, and the xtl currently has the bigass emdom 3"w.l.f fak pouch on it.


any thoughts?
is this going overboard?
anybody remember the poster, the post, the product or the company? (i've tried searching under multiple headings, etc but it's getting late here and my search-fu is weak. lightfighter keeps coming to mind but doesn't pay off.)
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
ironraven
* * * * *
Posts: 3009
Joined: Thu May 03, 2007 7:31 am
Location: Vermont

Post by ironraven » Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:55 pm

I like what I see so far.

The only thing I might point out is that we all have a temptation (and I'm guilty of this) to have too many bags attached to bags for the purposes of organization. Sometimes it's lighter and easier to go with one, larger quality bag that you've organized with ziplocks and stuff sacks inside. Just something to keep in mind.

Also, the gearslingers don't always play well with a larger pack. You might want to look at the versapacks, as they put the bulk off your back and on your side, so it is out of the way.
"Even if it's only the handful of people I happen to meet on the street or in my home, I can still protect them with one sword."

When a man go no longer speak without malice intended lest he cause offense, that is when truth starts to die.

There are three kinds of man- Man the Toolmaker, Man the Tool User, and man the tool.

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:48 pm

ironraven wrote:I like what I see so far.

The only thing I might point out is that we all have a temptation (and I'm guilty of this) to have too many bags attached to bags for the purposes of organization. Sometimes it's lighter and easier to go with one, larger quality bag that you've organized with ziplocks and stuff sacks inside. Just something to keep in mind.
thanks ironraven. i will definitely keep it in mind. i too suffer severely/extremely from this condition/temptation.
(the soon to be ex takes great pleasure in social settings telling anyone that will listen that i have a 'pouch fetish') :shock:
if a product got it's own pouch i'll probably buy it.
i used to manage a hardware/rural supplies store. i think you can visualize the terrible, terrible results of that.

your feedback is exactly why i've put this thread up, because otherwise i'll start to show the more extreme symptoms of the gearwhore pouch fetish when i start to order this stuff.
(you can see signs of it when i mentioned the chewbacca pouches on the remora's strap - "ahhh what the hell, there's some extra space/molle there, let's stick a pouch on it! yeah it will make it impossible to reverse mount the remora 'cos the chewbacca pouches will be under the big packs but... ...bad Tetra Grammaton Cleric. Bad.")
i need some... ...err... perspective (or a goddamn intervention) or i'll blow the cash and have a big pile of expensive multicam 1000d i can't comfortably/effeciently use which will mean i won't.
ironraven wrote:Also, the gearslingers don't always play well with a larger pack. You might want to look at the versapacks, as they put the bulk off your back and on your side, so it is out of the way.
thanks, again. i started looking seriously at the fatboy s (which i really like) but kinda dropped it for two reasons (though there's no reason i can't undrop it if convinced)...

reason 1) i also suffer from the "hey there's some more room in here, i'll just throw some more shit in it i won't use" syndrome. so i thought making the edc bag smaller (ie: the remora) would make me show some disicipline (sp?). the mcap would keep the usual edc suspects i carry anyways in the one spot.
(god help me but my first instinct was to use all the molle platforms on the remora and externally mount all the edc stuff in individual sheathes/pouches - it's a disease. a disease!)

also, i do a lot of work with grizzled old school farmer types - i was kinda concerned about the fatboy s's handbaggy appearance. with the remora i figured i could laugh it off as 'some crazy city yuppy crap they make us wear in the city now'.

reason 2) once i determined i'd have stashits full of mags on the waistbelts i figured getting to my edc stuff would require some sort of 'chest rig' to be able to get to the torch, multitool, folder, compass, cigarette lighter, smokes, trailmix, etc. i didn't want to have to transfer that stuff from tier to tier everytime i donned a layer/shed a layer. i (correct me if i'm wrong here - i really don't have enough experience with big frame/suspension/wrap packs to know) figured the fatboy s would be a pain in the ass up tight under my left armpit with the big pack on and bulky pouches on the waistbelt, or would interfere with things like shooting and stuff with it on my chest.

this is just my rationale for this choice of stuff so far, a lot of which is purely based on 'oh that looks hot' and not much irl experience with this gear, all feedback will therefore be seriously taken into consideration and is much appreciated.



*goes back to maxpedition, milspecmonkey, militarymorons and old zs threads to revisit the versapacks*

ta. :)
-[/i]
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

Squirrley
* * * * *
Posts: 6672
Joined: Thu Dec 22, 2005 3:35 pm
Location: Boulder, CO/Trinidad, CO

Post by Squirrley » Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:28 am

Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:[
i need some... ...err... perspective (or a goddamn intervention) or i'll blow the cash and have a big pile of expensive multicam 1000d i can't comfortably/effeciently use which will mean i won't.

If that happens you know where to get rid of all the extra gear.
Gundown wrote:Then I saw the bear and thought... holy shit this rum is fucking awesome!
Image

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:51 am

e-bay?

the squirrley beneficient fund?
as in: if i get bitten by a zombie you're taking my stuff?

you couldn't mean that, surely? but - i'll still love it. and pet it. and hold it close. (i just wouldn't use it two thirds as much as i intend to) ;)

wait!


oh god don't tell me the australian government has decided to ban gearwhoregear as well as semiauto anything, pump action shotguns, etc, etc, etc? :shock:

you'll take my big pile of expensive multicam 1000d i can't comfortably/efficiently use when you prise my cold dead fingers off them!

MOLON LABE!

:)


on another note i remembered who the poster was with the unique detachable med pouch to replace the emdom b.o.m.b on top of the gunslinger...

...IT WAS HAJI!
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... light=haji

weak search-fu my ass!!!

maybe the emdom b.o.m.b will lose out to this
http://www.atstacticalgear.com/istar.as ... S-0012!ATS

and the emdom 3"w.l.f lose out to this
http://www.atstacticalgear.com/istar.as ... S-0005!ATS

niice.
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:25 am

Just got an e-mail back from Mel at Kifaru
(How GOOD is their customer service? i'd read that it was but WOW. it is!)

Mel Terkla/Kifaru wrote:
Hey Gari, thanks for your interest in our gear. I really
think trying to attach a Gunslinger to the back of a ZXR is
a bit much, especially if they are both loaded. If you still
want to try it, I would suggest our Horizontal Lash Kit.
This consists of 3 separate lengths of 1" webbing, with
slotted quick attach SR buckles on both ends of the straps.
Use 2 of them to attach the pack at the top, and the other
one horizontally around the Gunslinger, into the ZXR. Hope
this helps. Take care.

Mel
Hope Mel doesn't mind me posting that. It's all about how good their customer service is so he shouldn't mind.
I'm not planning on fully loading up the gunslinger so looks like designer sticking point no.1 is done and dusted...

w00t!
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
magnus
*
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:31 pm
Location: North Carolina

Post by magnus » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:29 am

Just some thoughts about a good EDC bag.

Fire steel - I think fire is the single most important thing you will need if you get caught in the wilderness for an overnighter (or longer). I keep a magnesium block with embedded flint in my pants pocket, attached to my keychain. I also keep a sturdy fixed-blade knife on my belt. That way, even if I'm caught without my bag, I don't have to get into uber-primitive friction methods to get a fire going. There are other obvious benefits to having a knife once the fire is going and you need to move on to shelter/water/food/etc. I highly suggest that you consider doing something similar so that you always have the barest minimum necessities on your body in case the bag is ever lost or stolen. It wouldn't hurt to carry around a bunch of braided paracord, either. I carry a bunch in the form of a bracelet, and some more in the form of boot laces. If I am going to/from work, I've also got quite a bunch around my neck holding my ID badge in the form of a braided lanyard. Paracord is such an incredibly useful material to have in a survival situation, it too deserves a place on your person before you even start to consider the bag itself.

On to the bag. Consider the necessities first:
* Fire
* Shelter
* Water
* Food

Everything else is a convenience, IMO.

You don't necessarily need to carry fire, shelter, water, and food with you. But you should carry the means to make a fire, to construct a shelter, to purify water, and to capture food. Being equipped to draw from natural resources will permit you to last longer than relying on raw consumable supplies in your bag.

Fire - I place a very high importance on this. I've already got the magnesium block and flint in my pocket. I carry two butane lighters in my EDC bag, and one of them is a highly wind resistant type lighter that is popular with cigar smokers (Colibri brand). The wind resistant lighters can be finicky and less reliable, but it's the first one I go for to start a fire because it stays lit so easily once it lights up. My backup lighter is a standard butane pipe lighter that is a lot more reliable but not wind resistant. Writing this just reminded me I should probably EDC a pack of flints for these lighters. I have them, I just need to toss them in the bag.

In my neck of the woods, tinder is easy to come by so beyond my magnesium block I don't carry any additional tinder. Now that I have a bigger EDC bag I might adjust that for the sake of convenience.

I also carry two different kinds of pocket saws in my bag to cut larger firewood up into manageable lengths.

Shelter - Technically I should be good to go with nothing more than a knife. But for the sake of convenience I also carry paracord, which is great for lashing. Furthermore, I carry an emergency blanket (one of those mylar/foil looking things that folds up and fits in your pocket). I also carry an emergency poncho which can also be used to make an improvised shelter or to make one more water resistant. Additionally I have some chemical hand warmers that can be used to heat up your hands/feet if you're particularly cold (though some rocks warmed by the fire could serve the same purpose in a pinch).

Water - I used to just carry water purification tablets and some breast milk freezer bags to act as field-expedient canteens. As of this week I'm now also carrying a 32oz Nalgene bottle which is filled every morning with fresh filtered tap water before I leave the house. With my newer EDC bag having more room, I'd like to see if I can fit a Katadyn filter in there which will be more effective than a simple chemical tablet (and taste better too).

Food - I don't carry so much as a granola bar right now. That might change. Primarily I'm relying on being able to find natural food around me. I do carry a bunch of fish hooks. The inner strands in the paracord make useful fishing line. I'm trying to learn more about the local plant life to discern which plants are edible and nutritious. Down here in the south, the big surprise was kudzu. It has edible tubers, like potatoes, down in its root structure!

I carry a lot more than that, of course. My most recent EDC bag dump should give you some ideas. But be mindful of covering the essentials before you waste too much space on the conveniences. Also, try to cater your bag to your local environment. My local environment has abundant food and water resources, so I haven't really gone overboard in EDC'ing food and water tools.

One more thing: get out there and use your gear. Whenever I get new gear, I like to get out there and try it out in a controlled situation. This way, I know I can depend on it in a pinch. Or, conversely, I know that it's a piece of junk and doesn't deserve a place in my bag. I really ought to blog about that stuff more, and I intend to.

User avatar
magnus
*
Posts: 87
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:31 pm
Location: North Carolina

Post by magnus » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:42 am

Additional braindump coming...

Going back to some of your Fatboy-specific comments... comparing to my own experience.

First and foremost, it is a fantastic bag. I love mine, I don't intend to get rid of it. Even though I have a Jumbo now, I'm sure I will find some use for it.

The main point of the upgrade for me was not to have more room. I could have fit more crap in the Fatboy if I needed to, but I didn't particularly need to.

The main point of the upgrade for me was the 32 oz Nalgene bottle pouch on the back. The extra space in the bag was gravy. I moved all my stuff over a couple of days ago and there is still quite a lot of unused space, plus the PALS webbing that I haven't yet touched.

Moving all the crap over only took a couple of minutes.

If I was in a serious PAW situation, I'd probably stuff the Jumbo up in the very top of my backpack. I have recently tried hiking with backpack + buttpack + versipack, and yes the versipack got in the way. Getting rid of the backpack, I can carry the versipack + buttpack but I really don't need to. When it comes down to something serious enough to make me bug out, my butt pack and backpack combination are fairly redundant to my manpurse ("two is one and one is none"). The extra space in the bugout gear lets me pack some meals, clothes, more water, entrenchment tool, sleeping bag, tent, etc.

Don't think of the manpurse as a piece of bugout gear. Your real bugout gear is the stuff you're going to depend on if you can get to it. I'm sitting right now in my office. If Hugo Chavez sneaks a nuke into downtown Raleigh and sets it off, I'm far enough away that I'll be ok from the blast. But I might not be able to get home. However, I can get to my bugout land (by foot, if I must) and while I can't go home to retrieve my precious bugout kit and rifles, I can at least get to my bugout location with what I've got on me and a few days of walking.

So it's not a bugout bag, but it is there all the time. It's big enough to cover the essentials, small enough to have no excuse to leave it behind. It's there if I don't have an opportunity to get my real bugout bag.

If I can get to my real bugout bag, I suspect that once I get to a place where I can do it, I'm going to redistribute all the crap from my manpurse to the buttpack and backpack.

But you couldn't pay me enough to wear the buttpack to the office on a daily basis! :lol:

I regularly wear my Maxpedition Versipacks around farmers & country folk. Nobody has given me any crap about it. It doesn't look like a purse. It looks rugged, manly, and you should carry it without feeling self conscious about it.

KYZombieHunter
* *
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Lexington, KY
Contact:

Post by KYZombieHunter » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:55 pm

The MCAP from maxpedition is teh ballz. I have it rigged up on my ATS RAID i bought from Haji, and it is just an outstanding piece of equipment. I have gotten to know the guy that designed it, and he is hella good people. If you are looking for a great BOB do look at the bags from ATS. Not working for them or anything, but they jut have great quality gear. The customer service is top notch. Ive been on the road a lot for the past month and that bag has gone with me everywhere. I just ordered two Kifaru D&L claymores for the sides. I think the Kifaru would be a great INCH bag, but if u want a sold 3 day bag with hella customization, look at the RAID bag.
"I'm all about hearts and minds... two in the heart and one in the mind...." Cpt. Ryan Holliday

User avatar
eugene
* * * * *
Posts: 2214
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:27 pm

Post by eugene » Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:24 am

I don't think I would keep everything in the car, what if your car is stolen for example, or damaged?
I carry a get home bag/small bob in my truck which could keep my through a couple days if needed before I could come home or let me walk home.
My BOB is at home where we could use that gear to bug in or bug our for a longer duration, or my wife could use it and meet me someplace if needed. Then the camping/INCH gear is staged on a shelf in the garage. I built shelves in the garage and put one at the tailgate height of the truck so I can slide things off the shelf and on the truck easily for that situation.

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:16 pm

magnus wrote:Just some thoughts about a good EDC bag.

Fire steel - I think fire is the single most important thing you will need if you get caught in the wilderness for an overnighter (or longer). I keep a magnesium block with embedded flint in my pants pocket, attached to my keychain. I also keep a sturdy fixed-blade knife on my belt. That way, even if I'm caught without my bag, I don't have to get into uber-primitive friction methods to get a fire going. There are other obvious benefits to having a knife once the fire is going and you need to move on to shelter/water/food/etc. I highly suggest that you consider doing something similar so that you always have the barest minimum necessities on your body in case the bag is ever lost or stolen. It wouldn't hurt to carry around a bunch of braided paracord, either. I carry a bunch in the form of a bracelet, and some more in the form of boot laces. If I am going to/from work, I've also got quite a bunch around my neck holding my ID badge in the form of a braided lanyard. Paracord is such an incredibly useful material to have in a survival situation, it too deserves a place on your person before you even start to consider the bag itself.

On to the bag. Consider the necessities first:
* Fire
* Shelter
* Water
* Food

Everything else is a convenience, IMO.

You don't necessarily need to carry fire, shelter, water, and food with you. But you should carry the means to make a fire, to construct a shelter, to purify water, and to capture food. Being equipped to draw from natural resources will permit you to last longer than relying on raw consumable supplies in your bag.

Fire - I place a very high importance on this. I've already got the magnesium block and flint in my pocket. I carry two butane lighters in my EDC bag, and one of them is a highly wind resistant type lighter that is popular with cigar smokers (Colibri brand). The wind resistant lighters can be finicky and less reliable, but it's the first one I go for to start a fire because it stays lit so easily once it lights up. My backup lighter is a standard butane pipe lighter that is a lot more reliable but not wind resistant. Writing this just reminded me I should probably EDC a pack of flints for these lighters. I have them, I just need to toss them in the bag.

In my neck of the woods, tinder is easy to come by so beyond my magnesium block I don't carry any additional tinder. Now that I have a bigger EDC bag I might adjust that for the sake of convenience.

I also carry two different kinds of pocket saws in my bag to cut larger firewood up into manageable lengths.

Shelter - Technically I should be good to go with nothing more than a knife. But for the sake of convenience I also carry paracord, which is great for lashing. Furthermore, I carry an emergency blanket (one of those mylar/foil looking things that folds up and fits in your pocket). I also carry an emergency poncho which can also be used to make an improvised shelter or to make one more water resistant. Additionally I have some chemical hand warmers that can be used to heat up your hands/feet if you're particularly cold (though some rocks warmed by the fire could serve the same purpose in a pinch).

Water - I used to just carry water purification tablets and some breast milk freezer bags to act as field-expedient canteens. As of this week I'm now also carrying a 32oz Nalgene bottle which is filled every morning with fresh filtered tap water before I leave the house. With my newer EDC bag having more room, I'd like to see if I can fit a Katadyn filter in there which will be more effective than a simple chemical tablet (and taste better too).

Food - I don't carry so much as a granola bar right now. That might change. Primarily I'm relying on being able to find natural food around me. I do carry a bunch of fish hooks. The inner strands in the paracord make useful fishing line. I'm trying to learn more about the local plant life to discern which plants are edible and nutritious. Down here in the south, the big surprise was kudzu. It has edible tubers, like potatoes, down in its root structure!

I carry a lot more than that, of course. My most recent EDC bag dump should give you some ideas. But be mindful of covering the essentials before you waste too much space on the conveniences. Also, try to cater your bag to your local environment. My local environment has abundant food and water resources, so I haven't really gone overboard in EDC'ing food and water tools.

One more thing: get out there and use your gear. Whenever I get new gear, I like to get out there and try it out in a controlled situation. This way, I know I can depend on it in a pinch. Or, conversely, I know that it's a piece of junk and doesn't deserve a place in my bag. I really ought to blog about that stuff more, and I intend to.
Thanks for the well thought out braindump/s! I really appreciate the time and effort you put into it.
After some changes due to your input I think we're on the same page Magnus/Yonderway/Yonder/Viridari/Gearwhorebabydaddy ( :wink: )

I've got Fire covered with a WSI Sparkflint on the way from tadgear at the link.
Image
This will either not leave my person (via caribiner next to my belt sheathed 3blade stockman folder) or be in the EDC bag whether it's the MaxP Remora or the Fatboy S with a charcloth. A selection of bic lighters is already/always included in my current EDC on my person as I am (stupidly) a smoker, so I'm never away from one and being of a prepared mentatility - I've always got a spare or three on hand.
I might add some some funky waterproof/lifeboat matches in a b.o.a.t survival kit along these lines in the edc bag that I'll customise myself, or room permitting a slightly larger version something like this that features a mini-mess tin as the container...

Shelter I'd really like to be carrying one of these emphatex ponchos and given that I'm planning on having all my regular edc gear I carry now in the MaxP MCAPouch I'm hoping there will be more than enough room (even in the Remora) for one, as I am totally in love with them. I intend to already have paracord 550 in excessive lengths attached to the badboy's eyelets with the excess length braided up for neatness/compactness.
Image
There is a cadet version that is just shy of 6' long available if space/size becomes an issue in the edc bag with the full size poncho.

There is an improved space blanket that nfa has pimped elsewhere on the forum called the 'sportsman' that looks pretty good and seems to get around the shortcomings of the originals (he has also used it successfully as a "tent footprint" sheet for camping in cold winter). Perhaps a couple of them and some wide duct tape carried around an old credit card will make a good impromptu sleeping bag for the edc in an emergency/survival sitch.

I will be carrying the full version/s of the emphatex poncho in the sleep system of the b.o.b/3day/camping & hunting bag though. Count on that!
Combined with an emphatex bivvybag and my beloved and well used biker swag I should be out of most elements on any overnighter (whether by accident or design). Using the Poncho as a tarp over the mout of the bivvy like I've seen woods walker do elsewhere on the forum (getting around an design issue I've had for a while - the bivvy's fine for lying down/sleeping but where do I sit up/cook/get changed, etc)
ImageImage

Back to the edc bag issues covered in your much appreciated post, water was going to go a little something like this and this but I've read some things about iodine purification here on ZS so I want to research that further. I always have a bottle of water with me but until I get something that will fit in a MaxP MM Mini RolyPoly attached to the edc bag like a Nalgene I will continue to misplace the bloody things.

Food should be covered in terms of gaining access to it with the contents of the customised version of the survival kits above but beyond hard boiled lollies/candy for 'sugar/energy/mouth not drying out' and maybe some jerky I can't see me adding anything else foodwise at this point as I will pretty much eat it straight away (even energy bars :oops: ) if I edc it. (I can be talked out of this if others have better ideas btw)

Right now I edc the aforementioned 3 blade stockman, a big CRKT madeinchina knock off folder, a tacticool Energizer torch with dual mode 3xLED/1xXenon(Krypton?) and a cheap multitool (my Leatherman Wave is yet to be replaced after leaving it 'on tour' like a damn idiot.

And my Cold Steel Recon Tanto will never leave the belt order or bag when the that 3day/BOB bag is out and about (unless I need to use it of course :roll: ).

Thanks again... :D 8)
Last edited by Tetra Grammaton Cleric on Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:32 pm

magnus - with some **snips** wrote: Additional braindump coming...

Going back to some of your Fatboy-specific comments... comparing to my own experience.

If I was in a serious PAW situation, I'd probably stuff the Jumbo up in the very top of my backpack. I have recently tried hiking with backpack + buttpack + versipack, and yes the versipack got in the way. Getting rid of the backpack, I can carry the versipack + buttpack but I really don't need to. When it comes down to something serious enough to make me bug out, my butt pack and backpack combination are fairly redundant to my manpurse ("two is one and one is none"). The extra space in the bugout gear lets me pack some meals, clothes, more water, entrenchment tool, sleeping bag, tent, etc.

I regularly wear my Maxpedition Versipacks around farmers & country folk. Nobody has given me any crap about it. It doesn't look like a purse. It looks rugged, manly, and you should carry it without feeling self conscious about it.
Thanks more. I'm going to have to look at mounting the MaxP MCAP when not on the Remora (if I go for the remora) on the sternum straps of the bigger bags then if I just throw the edc bag into/onto the bigger bags...

I was trying to avoid that because if I have to dump the backpacks in a screaming hurry and E&E all my first line gear is now floating off down the raging river I was trying to ford like an idiot/sinking in quicksand/being torn apart by a very lost bear/getting divided up by raiders or trampled by zombies (shambled by zombies?)...

I agree with you upon examining a second/third/millionth time the customer photo gallery on MaxP's site. Certain farmers regardless of their limited contact with the 21st century (or 19th in some cases - God Bless 'em) probably wouldn't want to hit me or hit on me simply because of the Fatboy.

:lol: -
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:49 pm

KYZombieHunter wrote:The MCAP from maxpedition is teh ballz. I have it rigged up on my ATS RAID i bought from Haji, and it is just an outstanding piece of equipment. I have gotten to know the guy that designed it, and he is hella good people. If you are looking for a great BOB do look at the bags from ATS. Not working for them or anything, but they jut have great quality gear. The customer service is top notch. Ive been on the road a lot for the past month and that bag has gone with me everywhere. I just ordered two Kifaru D&L claymores for the sides. I think the Kifaru would be a great INCH bag, but if u want a sold 3 day bag with hella customization, look at the RAID bag.
Thanks KYZH, I've got a serious crush on the MCAP so I'm wrapt to hear it's working for you!

Say Hi to the Monkey for me, whenever I click on a blind link for a video review on a gear site and I hear the words "MilSpecMonkey here..." I know I'm in for a treat! You should invite him over here to ZS, I know he posts on EDC.com so if he's got the time I'm sure Kyle and Co would welcome his input to the forums like the other wise folk here...

I'll look at the ATS Raid again man since you so glowingly pimp it :lol: .
Actually I love Haji's company's gear. Those breakaway med bags are teh big Ballz! And the fact that he's here on ZS is great. His blog's pretty dang good too imho.
So far though the Eberlestock Gunslinger is the only one where I can carry my rifles discretely (not talkin' breaking Aussie laws here but even a rifle in a scabbard on a pack will freak folk out regardless of how legit you are).

Thanks again for the input. 8) Keep it coming.
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:08 pm

eugene wrote:I don't think I would keep everything in the car, what if your car is stolen for example, or damaged?
I carry a get home bag/small bob in my truck which could keep my through a couple days if needed before I could come home or let me walk home.
My BOB is at home where we could use that gear to bug in or bug our for a longer duration, or my wife could use it and meet me someplace if needed. Then the camping/INCH gear is staged on a shelf in the garage. I built shelves in the garage and put one at the tailgate height of the truck so I can slide things off the shelf and on the truck easily for that situation.
Thanks Eugene, my car situation is fairly unique due to my employment. Of course when I'm at home (which is also my office) the gear will be inside under lock and key. If TSHTF it's straight in the car with me and it's bugging out time.

Tooling around the city I'll only have the edc stuff with me as (sort of) outlined above so you're right - the edc stuff will double as a ghb (with a few additions in the car that can be lost/stolen).

When I'm on the road (I'm a glorified travelling salesman really when all is said and done) I pretty much cover all of Western Australia. The bag's will be in the car with me under cover and lock and key then. If I motel it they'll come inside with me and get locked in somewhere discrete if I have to go out (and get drunk with a client). If I get in the sh*t out in the deep sticks or want to pass up on the delights of motel life for the company of mother nature or want to shoot at some of God's creatures (or spam cans :wink: ) I can do it at a pinch because everything's in the BOB. If the dread ZPAW breaks out or the mother of all tsunami's wipes out the coastal civilization while I'm outback then as Jeriah once said , "One reason you'll be glad you've got an INCH set-up? Whoops, I'm homeless." and he's right.

I love your "mini loading dock" idea for your gear in your garage. Great idea! Might try and incorporate something speedy and common-sensey around here. 8)
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

KYZombieHunter
* *
Posts: 147
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:36 pm
Location: Lexington, KY
Contact:

Post by KYZombieHunter » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:14 pm

Anytime Cleric. Ill talk to the Monkey and see if he has time for this site. Between gear designs and the insane patch biz he does over at lightfighter, who knows. You got some great gear makers down on your side of the globe though. SORD are one of the few people that make really small pouches. Ive seen a couple of theirs I would like. But with exchange rate and shipping i think it is out of my normal price range. I have to teach the disaster prep section for my CERT group tonight. I always love the look on their face when I bust out my RAID.

Be careful out there, you're treading on my dreams.
"I'm all about hearts and minds... two in the heart and one in the mind...." Cpt. Ryan Holliday

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:43 am

No Worries KXYZ,

I love the SORD gear too, just can't find a use for their pouches in the major format of the system yet :wink:

Love the EQ quote also, you score even more points for the double entendre. :lol: 8)

-------------------------

This is ripped from Gunny's BOB thread where the awesomeness of Gunny's EMR and Agent_Jaws's MMR had me considering trading out the ZXR for an EMR and Agent_Jaws came back with info direct from Mel @ Kifaru. Thanks Dude!...
Agent_Jaws wrote:
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:
squirrley wrote:That EMR pic from Kifaru is a little misleading/optical illusion with that pointman or whatever the hell it is piggy backed onto it.

Also, somehwere on here there's a dude from Iraq that has his EMR I think, or some big one, with a zulu I think piggybacked, and THAT looks like a HUGE system.
Agent_Jaws: http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=21810

It's an MMR, next stepdown from the EMR btw. :wink:

-
IMO the MMR is friggin awesome, it really depends on what you're looking for in a pack though. A week long excursion for me easily fits into my MMR to include my poncho liner, but I had everything attached since we were only allowed "one bag" on the helicopter, and I had to move my entire operation. The whole set up stacked together holds and handles well, but amounted to around 120-130# on my back. Despite this, the suspension setup for the MMR was beautiful, resulted in no back or shoulder stress really. I sent a few e-mails to Kifaru to get some ideas on the different systems and basically this is the gist of what I got back:

1) The MMR and ZXR are roughly the same size and similar suspensions, the difference being the ZXR has slot pockets that the MMR does not, but the MMR has side-zips for access and an internal bag divider that you can chose to use or disengage. The frame of the MMR is removeable to use as a cargo hauler if you want.

2) The EMR is a larger MMR, it is bigger in girth as well as length. The EMR also has the extendable snow collar that the MMR does not have, adding a few inches of depth.

3) All 3 are really kind of big for a 3-day type pack, but they can compress down fairly well (my MMR compresses damned near flat if it's empty)

I settled on the MMR because I did not feel I would need the absolute monstrous capacity of the EMR and there is a certain point where stuff just gets lost inside a pack. I am one of those guys that loves to compartmentalize and having all my junk in one giant hole of a pack kinda sucks, so I love the divider built into the MMR (you can remove it by undoing the straps) and the XTL. Whatever pack you get, I definitely recommend an XTL.

One of the things I noted as a big difficulty is that if you have the bag stuffed out and things attached to the sides (i.e. long pockets, etc) then it can be a pain getting through doors. I don't know what it's like with the more girthy EMR but I know with my MMR and back pouches on each side it's a tight fit. Also, with everything attached the way I had it, don't anticipate being able to turn around very well in an urban environment :D For true field use though, I think it'd be hard to be disappointed with any of the 3 (EMR, MMR, ZXR).
There goes the budget. The 2nd house better sell for a king's ransom.

8)
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

Agent_Jaws
* * *
Posts: 419
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:38 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: RE series, Dead series, 28 series
Location: Iraq (again)

Post by Agent_Jaws » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:02 pm

I posted this in response to Jeriah's BOB but it's probably a good topic for this thread here:

One of my own biggest debates is how to organize the main pack vs add-ons. I've got two schools of thought on it at the moment:

1) Put consumeables in the main pack and other gear in other pockets - makes it easier to access whatever misc piece of gear you need as you're not digging through a big bag of junk to find it, leaving your main bag almost like your pantry/water supply.

2) Put consumeables in the exterior pouches and gear in the main pack - this method would allow your overall size to shrink over time because you can start peeling off pouches as you devour the contents.

I keep going back and forth between the two theories, but the Kifaru D&L system makes it nice because you can put your food in the main bag if you wanted and just transfer the whole exterior pouch into the main bag with just a couple clicks.

User avatar
eugene
* * * * *
Posts: 2214
Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2007 9:27 pm

Post by eugene » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:36 pm

i
Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:
eugene wrote: Thanks Eugene, my car situation is fairly unique due to my employment. Of course when I'm at home (which is also my office) the gear will be inside under lock and key. If TSHTF it's straight in the car with me and it's bugging out time.

Tooling around the city I'll only have the edc stuff with me as (sort of) outlined above so you're right - the edc stuff will double as a ghb (with a few additions in the car that can be lost/stolen).

When I'm on the road (I'm a glorified travelling salesman really when all is said and done) I pretty much cover all of Western Australia. The bag's will be in the car with me under cover and lock and key then. If I motel it they'll come inside with me and get locked in somewhere discrete if I have to go out (and get drunk with a client). If I get in the sh*t out in the deep sticks or want to pass up on the delights of motel life for the company of mother nature or want to shoot at some of God's creatures (or spam cans :wink: ) I can do it at a pinch because everything's in the BOB. If the dread ZPAW breaks out or the mother of all tsunami's wipes out the coastal civilization while I'm outback then as Jeriah once said , "One reason you'll be glad you've got an INCH set-up? Whoops, I'm homeless." and he's right.

I love your "mini loading dock" idea for your gear in your garage. Great idea! Might try and incorporate something speedy and common-sensey around here. 8)
-
Ok, that makes sense then. If I'm going to be away overnight I take the big bob too, it will just fit under the back seat of the truck and I haven't overnight without the rest of the family.
If I go out of state then the inch/camp gear goes too. Have the tent bag, then a big duffel bag with the air mattress and other items, portable grill, etc.
I plan to build a small cart that is the same height as the tailgate/shelves, but someone on another forum suggested just making the whole shelving system be able to move. I made the shelves run the length of the garage but I'm thinking of making a rolling frame with shelf sections that can be moved. So roll the frame under the shelf and lift it slightly to support the shelf then wheel it over to the truck and the whole shelf can slide into the truck. I'm still planning/designing that system. I wanted the cart for unloading grocery runs, get home from sams club and wheel the cart up to the tailgate and slide things on to it instead of carrying them inside. But I also have another idea of building a long box the length of the truck bed that could just slide in all at once and have its own folding frame on the back end so it could roll out of the truck like those camp kitchens. I haven't finalized on a design yet.

User avatar
Tetra Grammaton Cleric
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:17 pm
Location: Western Terror Australis.

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:23 am

I've cut and pasted this from the PAW Outfit thread as a) it probably really didn't belong there, and b) it contains a lot of information, method, reasoning and actual gear that I already own (and maybe) intend to modify and how it fits into my bag system...




The pants will be neat bdu style cargo's in a black with the pair of black gp's I have on my feet right now as I have made them and the pants part of my daily "uniform" so I will have them on anyway. Camo style bdu's will be in the bag...

The top will be covered in a plain civillian style jacket if in urban surrounds like I wear everyday.

If it is raining/very cold I'll be sporting my drizabone oilskin drover with my drizabone oilskin sheepskin lined vest worn under it in place of the urban jacket. These two items are already part of the gear I cart around with me for everyday wear or an emergency (I've slept wearing/wrapt in them more than once in a pinch. I'm looking to upgrade or at least add an extra level of capabilty by scoring one of these drizabone long riding coats soon however (but probably in the traditional drab like I have the vest and drover in). I know some horse blanket seamstresses so another option I'm thinking of is to have a 'press stud-on' extension made for the existing drover to bring it to the length of the longer riding coat shown when required. If I do that I'll get them to add the extra neck gorget/collar and a heavier hood as well.
ImageImage
Image

I'll look like the "cocky" (see definition two - I am not the man in the photo btw and all those definitions are tongue in cheek, it just means "farmer") I am, in the city with the driza gear on.

My backpack/s that are coming will be in Multicam with some Auscam elements so the "cocky" look should override any military look to an observer's perception. I plan on getting out of the city should the SHTF so I really don't want to be drawing any undue attention (but I must make the point here that I will not hesitate to draw whatever attention is drawn if I decide it's time to don a breath mask/screen if something like God Forbid 9/11 or worse is going down).

If say an "overnight" PAW/ZPAW was upon me like in SOTD or an Argentinian style PAWlite as Jeriah alluded to that still required bugging out at some point I'd consider wearing one of the Auscam emphatex ponchos soon to be mine over me and all my gear so I can carry the Steyr Scout in my hands* on my way out of the city without people seeing it as others have suggested in this thread and elsewhere.
Image

I've thought about scoring a cheap monocoloured plastic civillian version of the poncho for the purposes of not drawing attention to myself in the city in that situation. I could justify having it in the bag as a provision for this purpose by having it double as a signalling aid/rescue shelter construction matierial if I have a car crash/get hurt/reallyreallyreally lost out in the deep deep boonies in more likely scenarios than a ZPAW bugout but I haven't fully thought it through yet.

Gear/Magazines/etc should be accessible via pouches on the waistbelts, EDC bag setup, and belt order as mused upon here

Once out in the sticks and heading for the already scouted B.O.L's I'd be happier with a Recce Smock Jacket that was kept in the bag in a compression stuffsack and Camoflague BDU cargo pants that were kept in the bag along with other INCHy change of clothes. The drizabone gear and poncho takes care of cold and rain where neccessary. There is also a compression stuffsackable liner for the Recce Smock available also but I'm still considering that.

The jacket can be OD if neccessary as it works pretty well as camo around here IMHO.


*note: In regards to openly carrying a loaded rifle under a poncho in the streets of an Major Australian City I do not propose doing this in anything other than a total breakdown of civil order or the appearance of Zombies. I am not talking about breaking Australian law lightly here.
-
"I shoot the dead." - Harlen Maguire, The Road to Perdition.

FAK SURVIVOR GARDEN
Image
Hk33k - in memorium.
-

Post Reply

Return to “Bug Out Gear”