Help: Bag/pack options?

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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woodsghost
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Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sat May 07, 2016 1:09 pm

Ok. So I posted up a little while back about want I"m focused on for an INCH bag. I mentioned some miles and weights which I claimed to be capable of. Well, those were based on estimates from friends, and I realized once I got a scale for weights and started measuring my traveled routes on maps that I was full of horse pucky. So now I know my current capabilities, and in discovering those capabilities, I am wanting a plan for the next 12-30 months to improve my pack while improving those capabilities.

Currently, I can take a ALICE med, with ALICE frame, the heavy GI shoulder straps, and the issue kidney pad, and go 6 miles, with 51 lbs, in 2 hours. But IT SUCKS!!!! (weights are not in the pack, but strapped to the frame. Pack covers the weights so it does not look like I am hauling 50+ lbs of steel in the woods. That would be weird, and we at ZS are not into "weird.") My goal is 60 lbs over 12 miles in 3.5 hours, including any breaks.

A friend who was a Marine mortar man told me "that is simply the suck of rucking. Get used to it." So maybe I just need to get used to things and let my body adjust?

I am also not making a lot of money right now, and don't plan to for another 12-30 months. So I'd like to do this as cheap as possible. But there is a tipping point where one is simply throwing good money after bad, and I'm reaching out to you all to figure out how much to keep sinking into the ALICE system, what other options I might have, and to get a good gauge of whether I should simply learn to "suck it up" or whether "better gear" really is the answer.

In working out with the pack (long walks at 3-4 mph), I first realized the issue kidney pad chafes my back rather fiercely. I learned that you need to increase the layers of clothing you have to reduce friction, make sure there are no wrinkles back there, and I ended up cutting and taping iso/PT sleeping pad material to the kidney pad to increase the cushion in the back (3 layers) as well as create some padding for the hips (1 layer). I can add pictures if desired.

Now after 5.5 miles and then 6 miles the next day, with 55 and 51 lbs, respectively, my shoulders are rather bruised. There are blotches of bruises, but the pattern is clearly in the shape of the ALICE shoulder pads. So I plan to cut some iso/PT mat material and attach that to the shoulder pads. I also read about getting another set of shoulder straps and attaching just the padding to the shoulder straps, doubling their thickness.

Sleeping pad improvements: $0.
Effectiveness: ???
Durability: Likely short? 50 miles? 100 miles?

Double ALICE pads: $12+shipping.
Effectiveness: ??? But others have found it to be effective enough to recommend it
Durability: Likely several hundred miles?

The belt/kidney pad and the mods I have made to it are not great, and I was having issues for a while, but the last 12 miles it seems to be ok. Or rather, my back goes numb and then it all seems fine. It was rubbing the rear portion of my Iliac Crest. But the skin seems to be toughening up and I think I"m starting to adjust it to where it is not as bad. Plus clothing choices are helping.

I'm guessing a Tactical Tailor Super Belt and Super Straps would solve my issues. But together they come close to $100. For that I could probably lay my hands on a USMC ILBE or a decent enough civi pack on Craig's List. So while I"d love to go the TT route, and I may do that some day when I am making decent money, that is not an option I'd like right now.

Super Belt: $65 (but noticed on sale right now at TT!!! $45!)
Super Straps: $54 (Sale at TT!!! $38! Might purchase soon)
ILBE: $90-$250. Not really educated on them.

Ok, so do I REALLY need to stick with the ALICE system? No, I don't. I like it though because 1) I have it already, so lower cost if I don't go buying more stuff. 2) I know the medium is rated to about 50 lbs and the large is rated to about 70 lbs. These are greater than I have seen civi bags rated for in similar price ranges. 3) Durable vs. less expensive civi bags.

I am not married to the ALICE pack, but for the next 12-30 months I feel I could probably make it work well enough. I"d love to find that a few mods make it viable for the next 10+ years.

I also have a Hellcat setup. Or what is basically a Hellcat setup. I have a MOLLE 2 hip pad and straps attached to a DEI 1606AC frame. That seems nice, but the hip pad does not do my hips any favors. The modifed ALICE kidney pad seems light years ahead of the MOLLE hip belt. I suspect the issue is I need bigger hips to make it work, and maybe adding some iso/PT padding to the inside will help things out in that dept. Time will tell.

Ok, that is all well and good, but Craig's List exists!!! And deals can be found there for decent civi packs. But I"m concerned about the durability of most civi packs. I want to eventually carry 60 lbs on my back for exercise purposes. If actually INCHing, pack weight will probably be closer to 40-50 lbs, with the rest of the weight on my chest and in my arms.

So on some level this post might be premature. I have not tried adding padding to the ALICE shoulder straps and I have not added padding to the MOLLE hip belt. Either could, maybe, resolve my issues.

I might get TT shoulder straps now that they are more reasonably priced (temporarily).

Maybe I simply need to give my body time to adjust to the ALICE pack? Maybe over time the body hardens and copes better with the system?

But maybe I should throw the ALICE pack to the wind and buy a civi pack off someone local. Maybe civi packs are generally just as good or better for what I want? I just don't have much experience with them.

Or maybe there is another option? I am turning to you all to set me strait. To help me see a clear way forward. I only expect to "need" this setup for the next 12-30 months, and then I should be able to get something better. Something much more serious for hauling loads. But until then, zombies might arise, or if not, well I'd like to be more comfortable while I am working out. But maybe I should not bother, and simply let my body adapt?

What do y'all think?
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Maeklos » Sat May 07, 2016 2:16 pm

I actually found an old post of mine where I talked about my BOG (Bug Out Gear) setup. Might give it a once-over as an alternative to having everything in one pack. I tend to favor the layering approach, as it lets me adjust what I'm carrying as well as letting me have things I consider vital on me while being able to ditch excess weight if needed.

http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... wn#p952960

The gear consisted of my old WW2 USGI knock-off pack and a hunting butt pack plus suspenders kind of similar to this:

Image

Think I paid $20 or $30 for it at my local Dick's. It had comfy suspenders to it and a thickly-padded, good-fitting belt. From that, I hung/lashed my sleeping pad and my tent. It also acted as a bit of a shelf to help take a bit of the weight from my pack. This setup let me have all my "essential" items in my waist pack (water bottle, FAK, shelter, fire starting, etc) and leaving my pack for heavier, bulkier, or luxury items such as spare clothes, a pan, a couple of cheap tarps for area rain cover and ground cover, etc.

All told, I found this setup much easier to hump over long distances, especially after having done miles with large packs like JanSports and Ospreys. Maybe it was psychological, maybe it was physiological, but I found having a series of weights on me felt like it distributed the weight better than one big weight. This, in turn, made me feel more agile and confident when bushwacking.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat May 07, 2016 9:00 pm

Getting used to the suck is why Marines and soldiers get medically retired at the age of 30 with a bad back and 100% disability for knees and hips. You can do it in short bursts, believe me I have, but it hurts later.

IMO, INCH is a sucker's bet. Cache stuff at your BOL, lighten your load, look into labor-saving devices like a bicycle or pulk, and plan on moving faster instead of taking the kitchen sink.

Distributing your weight is certainly an option. If you're not wearing armor and whatnot, the ILBE is a pretty good pack, IMO far better than an ALICE for the load you're carrying. The bruising on your shoulders tells me you have something lashed up wrong in addition to too much weight in the pack.

Do you have your INCH kit loadout listed somewhere? Chances are there's some fat to trim there.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun May 08, 2016 12:26 pm

Doc,

There is a thread in which I sketch out my INCH bag, but based on feedback, and just additional reading, I"ll be changing some things. The items will not change, but the quantities of some items will change, which will change weights. I"m waiting to post a "WG's INCH bag" thread until I work out things based on the feedback I've been getting on ZS. Basically, I'm slowly assembling the puzzle pieces and trying to get it right "the first time" rather than posting up a crazy idea and having to completely redo things from the ground up.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=118120

I don't discuss the contents of the INCH bag till half-way down the first page.

So I might have things adjusted incorrectly. I can post pics while wearing my gear. Would that help?


Maeklos,

Thanks for sharing your MBO post and your gear setup! I was wanting to do something similar, but it does not mate well with my pack. I might need to change packs though, or change my belt setup. I"m also wanting to shift more towards a chest rig. Time will tell if I can make that work.
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” -Bilbo Baggins.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by bigred362 » Sun May 08, 2016 1:12 pm

An INCH bag is a one way trip for the most part. I'm a bigger guy and have I have done 15 miles in 5hrs with 70lbs in a custom Alice pack when uncle sam was my travel agent. Your training trips are under ideal circumstances with the weight close to the frame. In reality Alice packs will hold a ton of stuff but does not pack well, the center of gravity is moved a good distance away from your spine/center. Packing the Alice is important I personally like some heavier things up high on the pack like a sleeping bag and some heavy stuff low in the bottom of the bag like ammo and rations. The middle gets the rest like clothes poncho and liner and such. You are on the right track with the training. I hate to admit that the "jarhead" is right, the suck is just the way it is. You can however condition your body to be able to function with that kind of weight. Try this, use the 50 lbs for a week or two then go up 60 or 70 lbs. do that for a trip or two then go back to 50 lbs and increase your distance for a week or whatever interval you can work at. I have seen a few fellas over the years that could do an honest 90 to 100 lbs for a pretty good distance and they got there by training.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by moab » Sun May 08, 2016 1:55 pm

OK. Coming from an old jarhead with an INCH pack. Here are my thoughts.

First off what size pack do you take? This is first and foremost. REI or any other good outdoor store will size you for a pack. Get sized. Then you will know which packs - military or civilian that will work for you. The ALICE is for a short to med backed person at best. If your ALICE is not riding on your hips. And your hips aren't taking most of the weight. Move on to another pack. Without this knowledge it's hard to help you. YOU DO NOT WANT AN ILL FITTING PACK FOR HEAVY LOADS. For any loads for that matter.

If your going to stick with military I would consider the ILBE or the MOLLE II Large Rucksack - if they fit your back. Tony's Tactical is down right now. Although you may call him. He sells the MOLLE II's for around $75 new. And Fort Bragg had them for $89 in multicam some time ago. ILBE's are all over ebay and other surplus stores. I'd think you could score a good one for just a bit more. Maybe $100 in very good to excellent condition?

But if you want to save 5lbs go civilian. Something in the 65L to 80L range. Or larger if it will strap down when your not carrying that much. A civ pack from Gregory or Osprey will generally run around 5lbs. The military ones above are 10lbs. In an INCH ounces count. Maybe more than if you were going ultra light. I personally sprung for a very expensive pack that I got on a rare sale. The Arcteryx Khyber 80. It's 80L and weighs 5lbs. No frills. Just a great bag to dump all your shit into. But a great suspension.

I'd look for a civ pack that fits you from maybe last years stock. I haven't researched those this year. But when I bought my Gregory Z65 it was last years model. And instead of $300+ I paid $150. Look for deals. But try to try on the pack before hand at a store. If you can. If you can't it's not that big of a deal. IF you get yourself sized to begin with.

I haven't read thru your list of contents you linked. Or maybe I read that wrong. But 50+LBS is about where your going to end up with water, food, weapons and ammo. It just is. Trying to go below that will end up with an improper shelter or going to light on cold weather gear or some other pinch that was not necessary and not advisable. Try to stick to a down sleeping bag. Again last years models go on sale in the fall. Look at Kelty especially. I got mine for $100 new. And it's a 0F bag. That will save you 5lbs over a synthetic. This all depends on your AO. But if you can keep your shelter to 5lbs you should be good.

I'll read thru your other post and comment too.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun May 08, 2016 4:13 pm

bigred362,

Thanks for the packing tips and thanks for the training tips! I seriously appreciate those.

On training: I started with 35 lbs for 2 miles about 4 weeks ago, and have gradually moved up now to 50-55 lbs and 6 miles. If I am reading you right, it might be worthwhile to up it to 60-70 lbs, go 1-2 miles, 3-4 days a week, [I"m dumb. Re-read your post. 1 trip and then lower weights] then drop back down to 50 lbs and go 6-7 miles 3-4 days a week, then go back up to 60-70 and push a little further? Just keep alternating that every week? Pushing weight and pushing distance?


moab,

You posted your INCH list on my previous thread. Your advice has got me re-thinking a lot of my INCH bag. Thanks for that list. You and others in my previous thread have really pushed me to re-think the whole "military bag" idea. My issue right now is that I"m already invested in it (though I have not really paid much for my gear), and so I want to make this work for now for cheap. I might just need to get a ILBE [though for $100, I can maybe score something decent and civi on Craig's List]. You and Doc have both suggested it and RonnyRonnin has that thread on trimming the fat from the ILBE. The weight of the pack and of a fair amount of my gear sucks. I just don't see myself having the money to invest in lighter gear for 12-30 months. But a down bag, lighter pack, and plastic mags are all on my list of wants. As is a lighter rifle and probably a different (lighter) caliber. :mrgreen:

For measurements: I am about a 17.5 inch back, and about a 28-31 inch waist (hot active days vs. fat & happy days). I am a tallish, skinny guy with a slightly short torso. I think the ALICE is fitting me well, but I could easily be wrong. It would not be the first time.
Last edited by woodsghost on Sun May 08, 2016 5:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Maeklos » Sun May 08, 2016 4:48 pm

woodsghost wrote: For measurements: I am about a 17.5 inch back, and about a 28-31 inch waist (hot active days vs. fat & happy days). I am a tallish, skinny guy with a slightly short torso. I think the ALICE is fitting me well, but I could easily be wrong. It would not be the first time.
Being tall and skinny, pay close attention to what Doc Fab says about doing yourself permanent injury. If you can distribute your load weight evenly around your body, that will help - but you're still putting strain on your knees and hips. I've got a few friends who have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan after multiple tours with bad knees, backs, and shoulders.

I'll just leave these here to give you something to peruse and think about, mate:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/188986 ... vy-weights
http://www.stripes.com/news/rigors-of-w ... e-1.156110
Politics is like having two handfuls of shit - one that smells bad and one that looks bad - and having to decide which one to put in your mouth.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun May 08, 2016 5:02 pm

Maeklos wrote:
Being tall and skinny, pay close attention to what Doc Fab says about doing yourself permanent injury. If you can distribute your load weight evenly around your body, that will help - but you're still putting strain on your knees and hips. I've got a few friends who have come back from Iraq and Afghanistan after multiple tours with bad knees, backs, and shoulders.

I'll just leave these here to give you something to peruse and think about, mate:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/188986 ... vy-weights
http://www.stripes.com/news/rigors-of-w ... e-1.156110

Thank you Maeklos. This is why I"m reaching out to y'all. I want to do this without messing myself up further. I want to do things smart because nobody is giving me disability if I mess myself up. This is all on my own dime.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Maeklos » Sun May 08, 2016 6:07 pm

The best way to think about weight distribution and how it affects your body long-term was explained to me by an old Vietnam vet: Think of your waist and hips as a pivot point. The further you have to lean your upper body forward on that pivot point, the more stress you're putting on your shoulders, hips, and back to keep your center of gravity balanced. So, the more weight you can bring in and on your body, the straighter your posture, the less stress you're putting on your body. If your weight is wrapped evenly around your center of gravity, then you should be standing upright (or nearly so). This means that the weight is pushing straight down - something your body is better equipped to handle. The further you have to lean, the more that downward force turns into a sideways shearing force, which is what winds up doing long-term damage to your body.

With that being said, you might give some thought into breaking your gear down into - to borrow Les Stroud's nomenclature - "zones of assessment". For example:

Zone 1/Security - weapons, ammunition, belt knife, headlamp/flashlight: carried on body in vest, magazine/drop pouches on belt, chest rig, belt holster, etc.

Zone 2/Emergency/immediate/necessary survival items - canteen/bottle, water purification, spare batteries for headlamp/flashlight, folding knife/saw, poncho, ferro rod, a few items of food: carried in a butt/hunting waistpack, belt pouches, vest.

Zone 3/Large items/long-term survival kit/ditchables - comprehensive sleep system, shelter, spare clothes, cooking items, LED lantern, axe, folding saw, redundant kit items, etc: carried in a pack.

Thinking through a system like this will let you keep heavy, dense items on or close to your person (weapons and ammunition being the biggest culprits), while your pack has the larger, lighter items. Items that, if necessary, you can ditch either to fight or flee while still keeping critical, life-sustaining items on your person. In which case, adding a few MOLLE II sustainment pouches to your belt/suspenders, and maybe a leg rig to your gear will help round it out and come in at around $50 or so. And I haven't seen you mention a vest of any sort, maybe take a look at picking up something like:

http://www.amazon.com/VISM-NcStar-Molle ... molle+vest

Reviews look good and it's just under $25.
Politics is like having two handfuls of shit - one that smells bad and one that looks bad - and having to decide which one to put in your mouth.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun May 08, 2016 6:35 pm

woodsghost wrote: I am a tallish, skinny guy with a slightly short torso. I think the ALICE is fitting me well,
If you are over 5' tall it will not fit you well, the frame is just too short. The TT straps and belts really are the bees knees but they won't fix the frame issue, and you will still have too much weight on the upper body for healthy and efficient load carriage. Even with my DIY frame extenders, the COG is still pretty far back on an ALICE, so even though I can pull the weight off my shoulders I still have the ALICE lean going on.
If you have a shorter torso the ILBE might be a good bet, it tends to just barely fit tall guys but there are a few ways around it. $50 gets you a good base to start with (bag and straps, maybe a belt, maybe a lid).
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Getting used to the suck is why Marines and soldiers get medically retired at the age of 30 with a bad back and 100% disability for knees and hips.
THIS. 100%.
Every time I hear someone saying to "embrace the suck" I just hear "embrace the long term skeletal-musculature damage."
"rucksack back" was practically a medical term for a number of years, some of the newer issue gear might have alleviated this somewhat (or moved the damage elsewhere) but I see many pictures of ILBE/FILBE/MOLLE use with the belt tied back out of the way, so I'm guessing they just have a fancier name for it.

There aren't many packs at REI right now I would really recommend, the more classic ospreys will still hold a good load but several of the major manufacturers have put out some lemons this season.
late 80s early 90s backpacking bags are mostly made out of 500d cordura and usually had an emphasis on heavy load carriage, the Osprey "vector" series and the old Dana Designs packs are prime examples. Few of the older Mountainsmiths might be worth a try as well. Used sporting goods stores can be a better bet then Craigslist depending on what you have in your area, even pawn shops will get a gem every now and then but it can be easy to get a POS if you don't know what you are looking for.
There has been a lot of changes in the hunting pack market as of late, used Kifaru Duplexes and Bikini frames are sifting through the used market for a song, and while not at the top of my list MR NICE frame prices are coming down as well.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun May 08, 2016 6:51 pm

woodsghost wrote: Now after 5.5 miles and then 6 miles the next day, with 55 and 51 lbs, respectively, my shoulders are rather bruised.
I'm glad you are stacking the training, I've found I can do a lot of stuff with a pack I can't repeat the next day. I don't know how many days you need to be able carry a pack to ensure it is a sustainable proposition, but I would think 3-4 days is the minimum. I've done some heavy short term loads that bruised my hips and collar bones bad enough that wearing a pack in next week or so would have to be a life-or-death proposition. I think us skinny guys are more vulnerable to bruising with a pack, as of now I bet my sustainable carry weight isn't much more then 35#, I'd like to work up to more, but I'd say I could carry 50# for a few days in a row at most if I was covering any real miles.

I don't recall your exact INCH scenario, but I'd focus on distance more then speed, I'd rather cover 15 miles at 2mph then 10 miles at 3mph in most cases. Also I've found a lot of pack problems pop up after mile 10, hills seem to speed up the process as well.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by bigred362 » Sun May 08, 2016 7:18 pm

I suppose I should have expounded on the training theory. In order to see improvement in your strength and endurance you need to use, ongoing progressive overload. My strategy conditions your body in stages to handle more weight at intervals, then you reduce the weight and focus on endurance. When you go from 50 to 60 or 70 then drop the weight back down you will see a difference physically and mentally with the 50 lb. The "suck" as you have heard, is the mental part of training, and when the time comes, a component of the execution of the task you are preparing for. This is why SEAL, Ranger, Marine Recon training is so mentally intensive. It boils down whether you believe you can or can't and how your wired when you approach your physical limits. Thomas Edison once said "whether you believe you can or you can't your already right".
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun May 08, 2016 8:21 pm

Well....y'all aren't giving me the answers I was hoping to hear, but you all are giving me the answers I wanted to hear. I came here for the truth.

So I can follow bigred362's advice on training.


Maeklos, I don't have a vest. I am modifying my Chicom chest rig, and I'll work on some ideas for a tiered system. I"ll also take a second look at integrating my LC-2 equipment with the chest rig. I want the ability to carry essential gear when not wearing my pack, and I think my LC-2 stuff will provide some answers and maybe get at the system you are talking about. I had stopped considering it when it did not mate well enough with my ALICE pack and Chicom rig. But a lot of this will have to wait till I get my pack figured out.


Ronny & co, I"ll start looking into ILBEs. Straps and belt are a must. A lid is not a priority for me if I can manage a waterproof top. Thanks for the advice.

Also, I'll see if I can get my 1606AC frame and MOLLE gear to work. I"ll see if simply building up the belt cures some of my problems.
RonnyRonin wrote: I don't recall your exact INCH scenario, but I'd focus on distance more then speed, I'd rather cover 15 miles at 2mph then 10 miles at 3mph in most cases. Also I've found a lot of pack problems pop up after mile 10, hills seem to speed up the process as well.
My INCH scenario is kinda simple, and best explained as "Carrington Event/EMP/Civil War/Zombies." After my INCH, I'll build a BOB for fires, tornadoes, floods, etc.

I"m trying for some speed with the gear because I"m trying to kill a flock of birds with this one stone. I"m trying to get cardio, weight bearing exercise, pack issues/quirks, and "rucking" all jammed into my little routine.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by none1 » Sun May 08, 2016 9:53 pm

carrying your gear weight on your hips makes carrying loads a lot easier than carrying it on the shoulders. ALICE wasn't really designed to carry the pack on the hips like most modern packs. Alice was designed as a pack + belt and suspenders (LBE) setup. So, if you're looking to carry a lot of weight with an ALICE setup, you should have an LBE belt and suspeders with a some of the weight on the belt. maybe 15 pounds on belt + 35 in the pack instead of 50 pounds in the pack, as an example.

I like ALICE, its fun in a historical sort of way, and if you shop around, its WAY cheap. I like the pack + belt setup, I can hike to camp with both, and day hike with just the belt. I keep an ALICE pack in my jeep, sometimes use it for weekend camping, and don't worry too much if the jeep soft top makes it easier for someone to run off with the pack. Its cheap (under $100 for full camp gear, using cheaper stuffs)

I would hate ALICE for an INCH / longer than a weekend.

MOLLE 2 (with the newer frames) are much more comfortable to carry a heavier load. They can be found cheap ($50). External frame = still not as good as most modern suspensions.

ILBE = modern suspension, and can comfortably carry more gear. Pack is also heavy :( but, heavy = more durable so there is a trade off. $100 this gets my recommendation. The suspension really is much better than Alice.

used civvy = why not? Gregory, Arcteryx, some of the REI lines, OSPREY really are great packs, way better suspensions than ALICE or MOLLE, and they are lighter. Now, lighter is less heavy material, but, people do take these packs out for weeks at a time up and down mountains and they often last a few years so ... /shrug :)


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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun May 08, 2016 11:10 pm

woodsghost wrote: Maeklos, I don't have a vest. I am modifying my Chicom chest rig, and I'll work on some ideas for a tiered system. I"ll also take a second look at integrating my LC-2 equipment with the chest rig. I want the ability to carry essential gear when not wearing my pack, and I think my LC-2 stuff will provide some answers and maybe get at the system you are talking about. I had stopped considering it when it did not mate well enough with my ALICE pack and Chicom rig. But a lot of this will have to wait till I get my pack figured out.
LC2 and a proper, load carrying hipbelt won't play nice together, there are of course differing opinions on this but I truly believe the pack should come first (as it carries the stuff you know you will need, food, water, shelter) and then build the secondary tier around the pack (which carries the stuff you may need, but really hope you don't). Most chest rigs play nice with most packs, and detachable go-bags that attach to the main pack are a popular choice for giving you tiered options.

woodsghost wrote: Also, I'll see if I can get my 1606AC frame and MOLLE gear to work. I"ll see if simply building up the belt cures some of my problems.
1606 frame is the same height as the ALICE frame, in my mind it doesn't do anything better then an ALICE (I actually prefer the later). The 1603 frame is actually taller and can give positive shoulder lift with the right belt. I too had a miserable experience with the MOLLE II belt, I'd thought about trying to swap the weird wash-board foam for some flat stuff but haven't got around to it. This belt actually works very well with a 1603:
http://www.tacticalassaultgearstore.com ... y-pad.html
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Sun May 15, 2016 9:08 pm

RonnyRonin wrote:
LC2 and a proper, load carrying hipbelt won't play nice together, there are of course differing opinions on this but I truly believe the pack should come first (as it carries the stuff you know you will need, food, water, shelter) and then build the secondary tier around the pack (which carries the stuff you may need, but really hope you don't). Most chest rigs play nice with most packs, and detachable go-bags that attach to the main pack are a popular choice for giving you tiered options.
I can't verify for accuracy, but read that Army Rangers, prior to getting their chest rigs, used to hike up their LC-2 gear up above the belt of any pack, creating a sort of "chest rig" out of the LC-2 gear. I was thinking about doing something like that, and let the LC-2 ride above the waist belt but under the chest rig. Not sure this will work out in real life, but the theory is there.




So I ordered the parts for a complete ILBE, for a total, including shipping, of ~$65. Here's hoping things work out as planned, and I can learn to haul weight without serious injury! Thanks for all the advice!!!
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Sun May 15, 2016 11:10 pm

woodsghost wrote: I can't verify for accuracy, but read that Army Rangers, prior to getting their chest rigs, used to hike up their LC-2 gear up above the belt of any pack, creating a sort of "chest rig" out of the LC-2 gear. I was thinking about doing something like that, and let the LC-2 ride above the waist belt but under the chest rig. Not sure this will work out in real life, but the theory is there.

So I ordered the parts for a complete ILBE, for a total, including shipping, of ~$65. Here's hoping things work out as planned, and I can learn to haul weight without serious injury! Thanks for all the advice!!!
I've seen pictures of LC-2 belts at ribcage height (usually over a PASGT vest), but unless you run your chest rig really high or have a very long torso I'm guessing you will run out of real estate though.

what are you wanting to carry beyond your Chicom rig?

Good score! glad to know the deals are still to be had.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Asymetryczna » Sun May 15, 2016 11:12 pm

woodsghost wrote:So I can follow bigred362's advice on training.
Begin with Henry Ford, who wrote, “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

INCH. It’s mostly hypothetical is it not? Define home. What are the conditions for why I am leaving?
Realistically, I have packed and moved everything in an 18-wheeler many times and never looked back. The place I once called home, then, was no more.

Can I use the truck? The bergens and seabags are going. The waist belt is not used by some because they want to jettison everything quickly to fight. The ALICE pack sat nicely on two canteens worn on the cartridge belt, deuce gear. The new bags are shelfed by well placed waist components as well. Have a special pocket for tissues. TV demonstrates that people that must capture and kill their own food cry a lot. Do not use military forced marches as your guide. You and 150 of your best friends hiking as fast as you can with your favorite packs are capable of independent thought. Slow down and go somewhere else. Win by not fighting. War is a racket.

The thing about packs is that every one you do not have seems to promise more.
It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Mon May 16, 2016 10:46 pm

RonnyRonin wrote: I've seen pictures of LC-2 belts at ribcage height (usually over a PASGT vest), but unless you run your chest rig really high or have a very long torso I'm guessing you will run out of real estate though.

what are you wanting to carry beyond your Chicom rig?

Good score! glad to know the deals are still to be had.
ILBE: I"ll probably need to do some sewing and maybe replace buckles. I"ll only know when I receive it.

Chicom/torso gear:

Gear I think I can carry on the Chicom, after I modify it, are: mags, a canteen, a cup, a knife, a tourniquet, an Izzy bandage, some cleaning supplies, and some survival supplies. Additional gear I"d like to carry is: some food, another canteen, a poncho, poncho liner, maps, and a compass. Any ideas on additional gear?

Asymetryczna wrote: Begin with Henry Ford, who wrote, “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.”

INCH. It’s mostly hypothetical is it not? Define home. What are the conditions for why I am leaving?
Realistically, I have packed and moved everything in an 18-wheeler many times and never looked back. The place I once called home, then, was no more.

Can I use the truck? The bergens and seabags are going. The waist belt is not used by some because they want to jettison everything quickly to fight. The ALICE pack sat nicely on two canteens worn on the cartridge belt, deuce gear. The new bags are shelfed by well placed waist components as well. Have a special pocket for tissues. TV demonstrates that people that must capture and kill their own food cry a lot. Do not use military forced marches as your guide. You and 150 of your best friends hiking as fast as you can with your favorite packs are capable of independent thought. Slow down and go somewhere else. Win by not fighting. War is a racket.

The thing about packs is that every one you do not have seems to promise more.
1) I agree: war is a racket.

2) INCH bag: Ok, to be more honest and accurate, I"m looking to do more of a LRRP bag. Or rather a RRRLRRP bag (Really Really Really Long Range Recon Patrol). And the thread I linked to above indicated I"d rather drive than walk, and really I'd rather ride a bicycle than walk.

3) "Do not use military forced marches as your guide. You and 150 of your best friends hiking as fast as you can with your favorite packs are capable of independent thought." Would you explain a bit further? I"m not following as well as I"d like.
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*Don't go to stupid places with stupid people & do stupid things.
*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Maeklos » Mon May 16, 2016 11:28 pm

woodsghost wrote: 3) "Do not use military forced marches as your guide. You and 150 of your best friends hiking as fast as you can with your favorite packs are capable of independent thought." Would you explain a bit further? I"m not following as well as I"d like.
Think he means that in the military, forced marches are often used either as PT or punishment - either way, you're told where to go. But if "you and 150 of your best friends" got together on your own to go somewhere, you could probably find ways to do it that are less stressful on the body, easier routes, and better managed movement times. Just as a guess.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by RonnyRonin » Tue May 17, 2016 9:39 am

woodsghost wrote: Chicom/torso gear:

Gear I think I can carry on the Chicom, after I modify it, are: mags, a canteen, a cup, a knife, a tourniquet, an Izzy bandage, some cleaning supplies, and some survival supplies. Additional gear I"d like to carry is: some food, another canteen, a poncho, poncho liner, maps, and a compass. Any ideas on additional gear?
sounds good to me, might need to split it up into a chest rig and a go-bag perhaps. I tried running a good sized lumbar pack on my front between chest rig and pack belt but you just run out of room, chest rig+shoulder bag can work but can also be floppy and obnoxious. Next plan is to try a larger pack lid day pack (like the MR day pack lid) with the barebones poncho/liner/food load. My experience is that skinny guys have a pretty finite limit on what can fit on their chest without horribly interfering with the pack or basic movement.
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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by woodsghost » Tue May 17, 2016 10:29 am

RonnyRonin wrote:
woodsghost wrote: Chicom/torso gear:

Gear I think I can carry on the Chicom, after I modify it, are: mags, a canteen, a cup, a knife, a tourniquet, an Izzy bandage, some cleaning supplies, and some survival supplies. Additional gear I"d like to carry is: some food, another canteen, a poncho, poncho liner, maps, and a compass. Any ideas on additional gear?
sounds good to me, might need to split it up into a chest rig and a go-bag perhaps. I tried running a good sized lumbar pack on my front between chest rig and pack belt but you just run out of room, chest rig+shoulder bag can work but can also be floppy and obnoxious. Next plan is to try a larger pack lid day pack (like the MR day pack lid) with the barebones poncho/liner/food load. My experience is that skinny guys have a pretty finite limit on what can fit on their chest without horribly interfering with the pack or basic movement.
Yeah, thinking I"ll have to go with a smaller knife and a Swiss M84 canteen/cup combo, as it is smaller and taller. Might do one of my Kleen Kanteen bottles instead.

I was thinking I could do LC-2 gear above or below the waist belt of a pack, but the limited experiments I have done so far did not go well, combining my chest rig and ALICE waist belt.

I"ll have to re-do the chest rig, but I"m further developing my sewing skills.
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Help: Bag/pack options?

Post by Asymetryczna » Tue May 17, 2016 1:13 pm

I know this site is not intended to be a veteran site for war stories but a mortarman was used for comparison and I have extraordinary bias.
Gruntsickness: the terrible feeling an 03 gets that someone somewhere else could be more miserable than he is.
Gruntsplainin’ : when someone constantly reminds you that they do stuff the infantry does without ever being in the infantry.
I was paraphrasing a Marine twice decorated with the Medal of Honor. He wrote,
Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service."
AND, Monty Python and the Meaning of Life in which a Sergeant asks if anyone has anything better to do with their life than march up and own, back and forth, again and again and again. Some wise lad chose to go read a book if I recall correctly.

A march of any kind is considered physical training in the military but I never considered it punishment.
The primary purpose is to relocate a unit.
Woodsghost: My goal is 60 lbs over 12 miles in 3.5 hours, including any breaks.
Reasonable. So I reread everything and decided that I may not have helped you at all. It is not mine to reason why you must travel this distance in this time with this weight but it is reasonable to assume that you have a good reason. I have helped plenty of people do it before ;)

My point then, applied with sarcasm, is that the mortarman had no choice but to march. Something called to him and he replied, "send me." He volunteered for hardship. When his unit is told to march he moves with them and if it is a forced march he normally does not have the opportunity to appreciate the long reach of the Cottonwood or an acre of Blackberries in their juicy ripeness. 03’s are disturbed. It’s a sickness. In a really good unit if a man says he needs to get on the truck he is hurting badly and does not want to slow the rate of movement. Everyone else continues to march.

In the Corps, a march in excess of 32 k in 24 hours is considered a forced march.
The Marine Corps combat readiness test standard is 40 k in 8 hours.

40 grid squares = 24.5 miles – This is not that hard until you consider that it is usually done as a battalion, so the footprint is quite large with the cooks, bakers and candlestick makers. Additionally, some like to carry rocket launchers and H and MMGs and mortar tubes and ammo in addition to their pack. (These tools provide them comfort.)

So. If you must. Whether BigRed’s progressive training or in intervals, First, go do it. Just walk the distance you want and learn your pace. Forget about the pack. Depending on your size and length of stride you might find yourself shuffling (light jog made to look like a walk – LOL) now and then and that’s OK. A couple of days (or a week) later do it again with just a pack stuffed fullest with as little weight as possible. You are matching fit and size to your pace. You seek to mitigate inefficiencies. If you make your d/t goal, even if you have to run the last 100 meters, that’s OK. Do it a few times. Next, add half of what you need. If you are consistently meeting your distance/time goals add more weight until you have everything you want to carry or have someone trail you with something you can ride in if you get hurt -and- so that you can add weight every hour. It is hardest alone but any best effort can be matched and overcome. Even the snail knows his shell is a strength.

Now: This thread. I had to go look at my favorite pack to see if it even had a waist strap. Funny, to me, it does. It was hidden behind the frame pad. I do not remember ever using that waist belt and have never made any changes that required a purchase. (Large ALICE with frame. On other packs I have used the belt.).

Image

The buttpack setup someone showed is considered fighting gear by many. It’s on the body or within arm’s reach at all times. The pack should be set up to be jettisoned to fight. If you are not so concerned about these things I still recommend trying to set up a war belt with things you always need and in such a manner that it provides a shelf on the hips that the pack then rests on somewhat. A canteen on each hip works for me. You don’t want more strain on your shoulders, neck and back then necessary. You'll feel strain and some chaffing perhaps but this is because you don't do it often. There shouldn't be bruises or pain that shuts you down.

My experience is that before long you will be saying that you met your goal. This will lead you to think more about footwear.

If you don’t have to carry so much so far in such a time, cut the weight in half and slow down.
Stop now and then in order to inhale the sweet honeysuckle.

Or, if you insist, Get up, come on get down with the sickness.
When you get to your goal stop for a moment. Shrug. Then walk back.

But first, let me start over. How big are you and what kind of terrain are we talking about?

On another note, "suck" is a booyah word that means everything and nothing. In the 80's it was not uncommon to see FTS painted here and there on bases and though some tried to say it stood for Field Training Service we all knew it's real meaning. A reporter once visited us in a nasty place and after 10 minutes of observation remarked, "This really sucks." My entire unit cheered! I suspect the war in RVN made it popular but their choice of the word "wasted" seems to resonate with me the most. Surely we are smarter now. I am searching for a better way.

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