3lb Subzero Sleep System?

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moab
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3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by moab » Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:11 pm

This guy is all sorts of fail when it comes to solid information about each piece of this kit. But I do believe he slept in it overnight at -9F. Like him I have absolutely no way of proving this. LOL! But nonetheless I thought it an interesting discussion. As he uses an insulative bivy, a summer weight down sleeping bag, a VBL, and a Thermorest sleeping pad.

It would be interesting not only to discuss the possibilities of this system. But also how it might be scaled down and adapted to the other three seasons of the year. At 3lbs it seems hard to beat. But I would also like to find out how much all this costs. Another key piece of information left out of his review. I really don't like Youtube videos over a forum post. As there is no way to effectively ask questions, comment and vet someones ascertains about a given topic. And again, this guy is all full of fail when it comes to solid info about this set up.

You be the judge. What does this system cost? What is each piece of it made out of it? And what it is rated for? Is a 3lb Sub Zero Sleep System even possible?

(GD youtube! Can anyone TELL me how to fix this video? I've posted both the share link and the url without the "S" inbetween the "[YouTube]" codes and it still doesn't work. What the hell am I doing wrong? This used to work.)



The actual url:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ349q3 ... jr&index=7
Last edited by the_alias on Thu Oct 29, 2015 2:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Reason: Fixed the YT embed
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by teotwaki » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:05 pm

I have found on the web that some surgery is necessary

This is YouTube's url for sharing:
https://youtu.be/ZZ349q3qsAA?list=PLnuX ... MdKJ5rxNjr

This is the URL from your browser address line
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ349q3 ... MdKJ5rxNjr

You need to take note of this in both links: ZZ349q3qsAA

Note this in the second link: www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Modify the second link to look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ349q3qsAA

Be sure to drop the letter "s" from http and embed the modified url in the you tube boxes from the pushbutton on the tool bar. I don't know if the type of browser is part of the problem.


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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by moab » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:29 pm

It's so weird. Because the link I get from the URL is the same as the finished link you posted. Except for taking the S out. I just did like I did before but it works this time. Weird. Thanks for your help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ349q3qsAA

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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Woods Walker » Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:40 pm

I would be more impressed if the author was actually camping in sub zero showing his gear. Here are a few tips and observation.

1. A fluffy down vest goes a long way to pump up the rating of a bag and not restrict movement etc within the bag. A hat and warm dry socks are worth their weight in gold.

2. Cutting the ground pad is a bad.... bad.....bad.... idea for actual field use. The ridgerest is a good closed cell pad but not up to the task for sub zero, well it never was for me anyways unless combined with something else. Also it's clearly brand spanking new. IMHO the author is over exaggerating the effectiveness of the "aluminized finish".

3. I worry about not breathable things within a sleep system I am seeing two water proof, not breathable layers in that system. Potential bad news.

I wouldn't do this but that's just me.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by moab » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:05 pm

Woods Walker wrote:I would be more impressed if the author was actually camping in sub zero showing his gear. Here are a few tips and observation.

1. A fluffy down vest goes a long way to pump up the rating of a bag and not restrict movement etc within the bag. A hat and warm dry socks are worth their weight in gold.

2. Cutting the ground pad is a bad.... bad.....bad.... idea for actual field use. The ridgerest is a good closed cell pad but not up to the task for sub zero, well it never was for me anyways unless combined with something else. Also it's clearly brand spanking new. IMHO the author is over exaggerating the effectiveness of the "aluminized finish".

3. I worry about not breathable things within a sleep system I am seeing two water proof, not breathable layers in that system. Potential bad news.

I wouldn't do this but that's just me.
I know right?! And he gives no specs for each item in the system at all. Lousy video IMHO.

But my question was is this possible? Are there three or four items that add up to 3lbs give or take. That would keep you warm down to say 0F? That wouldn't break the bank. (Assuming your carrying a down jacket of some sort. And one set of merino wool or synthetic base layer. Wool socks. And a balaclava or knit wool cap.) Hell I'd settle for 4lbs with ground pad, bivy and sleeping bag. Or whatever someone comes up with. I don't know the exact weight of my system. But I'm pretty sure it's well above 6 or 7lbs for 0F. I'd have to look up the weights. Kelty Cosmic Down 0F, USGI bivy, Big Agnes long inflatable air mattress with insulation. Although I also have lighter ground mattresses. Including the Kymit skeleton. But I don't think that would be such a great idea in the winter. I have a USGI closed cell foam. But I just hate the bulk of foam. I don't think I've ever used it. Although I used one in the Corps. And it worked just fine.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Woods Walker » Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:24 pm

moab wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:I would be more impressed if the author was actually camping in sub zero showing his gear. Here are a few tips and observation.

1. A fluffy down vest goes a long way to pump up the rating of a bag and not restrict movement etc within the bag. A hat and warm dry socks are worth their weight in gold.

2. Cutting the ground pad is a bad.... bad.....bad.... idea for actual field use. The ridgerest is a good closed cell pad but not up to the task for sub zero, well it never was for me anyways unless combined with something else. Also it's clearly brand spanking new. IMHO the author is over exaggerating the effectiveness of the "aluminized finish".

3. I worry about not breathable things within a sleep system I am seeing two water proof, not breathable layers in that system. Potential bad news.

I wouldn't do this but that's just me.
I know right?! And he gives no specs for each item in the system at all. Lousy video IMHO.

But my question was is this possible? Are there three or four items that add up to 3lbs give or take. That would keep you warm down to say 0F? That wouldn't break the bank. (Assuming your carrying a down jacket of some sort. And one set of merino wool or synthetic base layer. Wool socks. And a balaclava or knit wool cap.) Hell I'd settle for 4lbs with ground pad, bivy and sleeping bag. Or whatever someone comes up with. I don't know the exact weight of my system. But I'm pretty sure it's well above 6 or 7lbs for 0F. I'd have to look up the weights. Kelty Cosmic Down 0F, USGI bivy, Big Agnes long inflatable air mattress with insulation. Although I also have lighter ground mattresses. Including the Kymit skeleton. But I don't think that would be such a great idea in the winter. I have a USGI closed cell foam. But I just hate the bulk of foam. I don't think I've ever used it. Although I used one in the Corps. And it worked just fine.
Anyone can be uncomfortable sleeping in the cold so yea, it's totally possible. :lol: That system is going to trap perspiration something bad. A person will pay for that unless they have a heated shelter. The most important aspect of a sleep system is insulation from the ground. It fails right there. Try not getting body parts on the snow with that cut up pad. Heck even if not hacked up it's insufficiency unless something is added to the system either field expedient or packed.

I prefer a wide/long sized Ridgerest closed cell pad and Exped Downmat 7 extra short pad combo when looking to save some weight but there are lots of other short or 3/4 sized insulated inflatable pads which might be more UL.

Image

So why isn't the closed cell pad in this photo? Yup, you guessed it. I am using the pad to drag wood into the shelter.

Image

Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amature mistake IMHO (questioning the video's author, not you). One bad night is all it takes to clarify that issue.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Dragon80 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 4:43 am

Woods Walker wrote:
moab wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:I would be more impressed if the author was actually camping in sub zero showing his gear. Here are a few tips and observation.

1. A fluffy down vest goes a long way to pump up the rating of a bag and not restrict movement etc within the bag. A hat and warm dry socks are worth their weight in gold.

2. Cutting the ground pad is a bad.... bad.....bad.... idea for actual field use. The ridgerest is a good closed cell pad but not up to the task for sub zero, well it never was for me anyways unless combined with something else. Also it's clearly brand spanking new. IMHO the author is over exaggerating the effectiveness of the "aluminized finish".

3. I worry about not breathable things within a sleep system I am seeing two water proof, not breathable layers in that system. Potential bad news.

I wouldn't do this but that's just me.
I know right?! And he gives no specs for each item in the system at all. Lousy video IMHO.

But my question was is this possible? Are there three or four items that add up to 3lbs give or take. That would keep you warm down to say 0F? That wouldn't break the bank. (Assuming your carrying a down jacket of some sort. And one set of merino wool or synthetic base layer. Wool socks. And a balaclava or knit wool cap.) Hell I'd settle for 4lbs with ground pad, bivy and sleeping bag. Or whatever someone comes up with. I don't know the exact weight of my system. But I'm pretty sure it's well above 6 or 7lbs for 0F. I'd have to look up the weights. Kelty Cosmic Down 0F, USGI bivy, Big Agnes long inflatable air mattress with insulation. Although I also have lighter ground mattresses. Including the Kymit skeleton. But I don't think that would be such a great idea in the winter. I have a USGI closed cell foam. But I just hate the bulk of foam. I don't think I've ever used it. Although I used one in the Corps. And it worked just fine.
Anyone can be uncomfortable sleeping in the cold so yea, it's totally possible. :lol: That system is going to trap perspiration something bad. A person will pay for that unless they have a heated shelter. The most important aspect of a sleep system is insulation from the ground. It fails right there. Try not getting body parts on the snow with that cut up pad. Heck even if not hacked up it's insufficiency unless something is added to the system either field expedient or packed.

I prefer a wide/long sized Ridgerest closed cell pad and Exped Downmat 7 extra short pad combo when looking to save some weight but there are lots of other short or 3/4 sized insulated inflatable pads which might be more UL.

Image

So why isn't the closed cell pad in this photo? Yup, you guessed it. I am using the pad to drag wood into the shelter.

Image

Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amature mistake IMHO (questioning the video's author, not you). One bad night is all it takes to clarify that issue.
I think you make a great point about not skimping. Is it really worth it to save a little bit of weight to risk a very uncomfortable night out? To me, no. I have a similar setup with my Z-Lite and Downmat UL 7 except I went wide/long with the Downmat, I just can't sleep with my feet hanging off like some can. I use a similarly rated bag as this guy with the Sierra Designs mobily mummy 800 rated at 27 degrees. Combine those with my SOL Escape and I could get lower than this guys system pretty easily due to the mat. I learned my lesson years back the pad is the worst place to skimp on the price, my current system has only seen 16 degrees with 30 mph winds gusting to 50, I'm hoping to test it at 0 this year!

On the vapor barrier, I see the validity, but I'm not sold yet. I want to look more into it as Andrew Skurka definitely knows what he's talking about and he swears by it for multiple nights.
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viewtopic.php?f=14&t=114606

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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Boondock » Sat Oct 31, 2015 11:40 am

Woods Walker wrote:Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amature mistake IMHO ...
Indeed. That's great advice in any season.

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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by teotwaki » Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:00 pm

For snow and ice at altitude in places like this (orange tent is mine)
Image

I use a Thermarest ProLite short combined with a Ridgerest. If the Thermarest ever leaked I would still have the Ridgerest but in 10 years the Prolite has never leaked.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by ZombieGranny » Mon Nov 02, 2015 12:04 pm

Image
Last edited by ZombieGranny on Sat Nov 07, 2015 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Evan the Diplomat » Mon Nov 02, 2015 3:20 pm

Boondock wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amateur mistake IMHO ...
Indeed. That's great advice in any season.
Now, I don't advocate this, but many in the ultra light thru-hiking crowd use a cut down pad. The trick is to use their pack back to finish off the length of where the pad would be.Swollen legs/feet are elevated and protected from heat transference to the ground.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by moab » Mon Nov 02, 2015 4:57 pm

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Boondock wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amateur mistake IMHO ...
Indeed. That's great advice in any season.
Now, I don't advocate this, but many in the ultra light thru-hiking crowd use a cut down pad. The trick is to use their pack back to finish off the length of where the pad would be.Swollen legs/feet are elevated and protected from heat transference to the ground.
This is very true. But I think the situation posed is 0F. So it's dead of winter. Snow on the ground. I don't think I would skimp on ground insulation either. I have separate pads for separate conditions. The largest being the Big Agnes insulated air mattress. Then down to a thinner non insulated Big Agnes. A USGI closed cell foam pad (Which I hate cause it's so bulky.). And then a Klymit Skeleton or whatever they call it. IT's only three quarters length. And is a criss cross pattern of inflated mattress with holes in it to cut down on weight.

Most AT/PCT thru hikers are fall/spring/summer hikers - correct me if I'm wrong. But I'm trying to remember what pad Andrew Skurka (god I hate mentioning him again. I feel like he's a cult leader and I'm one of his disciples. lol! He's just the most published long trek backpacker I know of.) used on his Alaska or cross the US trip. I think the US trip he did part in winter because he had to. And I think it was in the cold upper midwest that he traveled. Checking now... He used a full size Ridge Rest Solar too. On his Alaska and winter trips. And he's a ultra lighter of sorts. He's done the AT and PCT IIRC. And his gear is very minimal. At least compared to what I would take.

But ya. On the AT or PCT in non winter months I'd think you'd see a lot of cut down pads. And probably a lot of cut off sections along the trail. lol.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Woods Walker » Mon Nov 02, 2015 10:51 pm

Evan the Diplomat wrote:
Boondock wrote:
Woods Walker wrote:Never, ever get too skimpy with the ground pad. It's an amateur mistake IMHO ...
Indeed. That's great advice in any season.
Now, I don't advocate this, but many in the ultra light thru-hiking crowd use a cut down pad. The trick is to use their pack back to finish off the length of where the pad would be.Swollen legs/feet are elevated and protected from heat transference to the ground.
There is a BIG difference between the UL thru-hiking crowd and sub zero camping. Most of the thru hikers I met on the AT sleep in stuff like this.


Image

Totally different world IMHO though long distance hiking is very challenging and there are times when shelters aren't available, sometimes because of overcrowding. Personally I am not sleeping on my pack though have used all sorts of crazy things as a pillow. I have never really seen a cut off closed cell pad on the AT beyond one I took during summer for just sitting (hammock had it's own underpad) however they must have been out there. Just something I wasn't looking to notice but maybe next year.
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Re: 3lb Subzero Sleep System?

Post by Wraith6761 » Tue Nov 03, 2015 7:56 pm

moab wrote:But my question was is this possible? Are there three or four items that add up to 3lbs give or take. That would keep you warm down to say 0F? That wouldn't break the bank. (Assuming your carrying a down jacket of some sort. And one set of merino wool or synthetic base layer. Wool socks. And a balaclava or knit wool cap.) Hell I'd settle for 4lbs with ground pad, bivy and sleeping bag. .
Whelp, just tinkering around with some items, assuming you've got a decent chunk of change sitting around, you could do a hammock setup for just over 4lbs (4lb 7oz) that would work to 0*F. Or, you could drop the quilts down to 20*F (the cottage vendors I'm thinking of tend to rate their quilts very conservatively) and save about 7-8 oz there, just making the difference up with clothing.

UGQ 0*F Full Length 850GGD down quilts, 32.31 oz for underquilt, 25.52 oz for top quilt. $320 for underquilt, $330 for top quilt
Hammeck, 10 ft single layer Hexon 1.0 hammock w/whoopie sling suspension, 10.6 oz (weight limit 225lbs) $65
Tarp, Hammock Gear cuben fiber 11'x8'6" hex, 5.3 oz. $235

Total cost, $950 plus S&H.

Like I said, it'd take a nice chunk of change to buy all of it at once, and it's probably possible to find even lighter stuff, I'm just going to sites that I know have weights listed in easy to find places. Also, since all of these companies are small American cottage companies, their prices are a bit higher than mass-produced stuff, so there's that...probably could find it cheaper, though the quality probably wouldn't be the same.
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