Body Armor

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:55 pm

Yea I mixed up level IIIA and level III my bad, and yes there was sarcasm in there as well.
That said the SAPI plates in military armor will stop conventional rifle rounds (up to 7.62x51) and the heavier ESAPI plates will stop the older M2 AP out of the .30-06.
^They will not stop 7.62X54R AP rounds consistently.
I think the military still uses V50 standards for testing and not the NIJ stuff.
correct, however most of the companies that have contracts for ESAPI's(I could be wrong but right now I think its just ceradyne??) or SAPI's also sell them to non-DOD customers, thus most if not all of the military's plates also are tested and conform to NIJ standards.
"if it manages to stop it, you'll be lucky to have just a cracked sternum."
this was more or less sarcasm, yes if you are actively involved in a firefight the adrenaline and chemical cocktail will keep you going. It was more to convey the message that having over 2500 ft/lbs over energy dumped into your chest or back is not going to feel good regardless and if you aren't on an adrenaline high or have other guys backing you up, your probably going to have some other issues after taking a shot to the chest.
Post by Blacksmith » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:41 pm

but most of the REAL spec ops guys I have had the ..."pleasure"...of working with are generally "lightly armored" or even unarmored, yea sure your at a higher risk but lets face it,



:roll:

Level IV are specialty plates that usually only executives or government officials wear. Military get issued a level III soft armor and level IIIA plates rated for AP 308, thats why we have the option of plate carriers.



:roll:

Ceramic SAPI's are designed to absorb most of that energy by being stiff and then shattering, but they don't hold up as well to multiple shots.



:roll:

I could go on but BHP hit a lot of it already. Seldom have I seen so much incorrect information posted in two back to back posts by the same poster in one thread like that.
Ceramic SAPI's not holding up to multiple shots is physics not opinion, dragonskin being a notable exception due to its quantity of ceramic disks(the down side is they were held together by glue and had a tendency to melt and sink to the bottom of the carrier), and the displacement of energy by spreading out over a larger area and shattering is also physics. I seen ESAPI's get cracked just from being poorly packed and bags roughly handled.
Level IV are specialty plates that usually only executives or government officials wear.
Yes yes that was sarcasm, kinda, they aren't exactly every day police officer plates, nor are they normal wear for military, yes are ESAPI's rated for level IV but only guaranteed when combined with the Level IIIA soft armor, now that could be just to convince us to wear the full flak over plate carrier but based on the little pamphlet that comes with the flaks, active duty are issued Level III standalone or Level IV combined plates. So saying that stand alone Level IV plates are specialty really isn't incorrect.
but most of the REAL spec ops guys I have had the ..."pleasure"...of working with are generally "lightly armored" or even unarmored, yea sure your at a higher risk but lets face it,
.
I'm not going to list out capabilities over the internet but think about it.....a full flak with delt protection, thigh protection, blast panties, side sapis, the collar/yoke, neck protector, and nut flap gets really really awkward to walk around in no less do anything physical in....most regular ground combat units don't wear all that shit anymore. An on certain missions, yes SOF doesn't wear rifle plates, if your mission is blend in with the local military in some bum-f**k country and they don't wear body armor, you wearing body armor is just going to spotlight you. If they go on a raid, sure they are wearing armor, but not juggernaut suit or power armor a lot of people expect.

Rereading what I wrote is does come off a little, misdirected. However my main point is if you are in SHTF scenario where you need rifle armor, and you don't have a lot of other things, several other people fighting with you (hopefully at your level of training or higher), an armored vehicle(if you have a vehicle), a semi-reinforced building(if you are static), and if you are foot mobile, you are probably going to want some kind of close air support or a lot more buddies. Body armor is heavy and cumbersome, especially anything with rifle plates, if you are out on your own and carrying everything you need wearing a flak is going to be really really annoying especially if your not planning on getting into a gun fight. As far as the "two posts of misinformation", we only learn from being wrong so please let me know the specifics if you think anything else I sad was wrong. This isn't a d*%k measuring contest, its about getting the right information out there, so if you've got anything else that contradicts what I know please put it out there, too much information in the planning stages is better than not enough information(unless you have the dumb).

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:05 pm

Still lots of wrong there. Active duty are issued Level IV standalone E-SAPI plates for combat zones. They will routinely stop mutiple rounds of 7.62 without cracking. Energy dump is bullshit, especially since the purpose of the plate is to dissipate said energy. Palte carriers are not worn over standard armor. It's EITHER the MTV/IMTV/OTV/IOTV/Whateverthefuckacronym OR the plate carrier. You are completely wrong on dragonskin (the disks fell off, not just "sank to the bottom" and would npot reliably stop shots coming in at an angle). The SF bubbas I was around (small sample size, but it's all I have) wore plate carriers and (more recently) blast diapers with bump helmets.

so to pinpoint: almost everything you've typed is wrong. Almost.

ETA: Caveat, I've been told the SF bubbas I knew/worked with aren't Tier One enough. They were lowly SEALs and MARSOC operators, so if the ultrasecret blackops are running around naked, then disregard my lowly experience.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:05 pm

ESAPI's really aren't IV though(we established they are only level IV when used in conjunction with the soft armor), yes they are rated to stop 7.62X63 AP but there have been a notable number of cases in recent years where dudes with mosins were punching straight through ESAPI's, leave it to closer range, or shit luck . I don't recall saying plate carriers were worn over standard armor, that shit would suck. Yes MARSOC/Rangers/Commandos(Brits)/Aussie's/JSOTF etc etc usually run plate carriers and less often blast diapers(usually only if they are doing raid on a known hardened compound. Plate Carrier vs Full Flak(http://www.pointblankarmor.com/Military/otv.php) equals lightly armored. Plate Carriers are USUALLY employed across the board without side sapis and don't have soft armor for additional protection making those ESAPI's less than level IV, and it doesn't offer any shrapnel protection, with no neck protector or yoke and no goin flap. On most PB's and COP's your not wearing flaks until your being shot at or going on patrols/raids.
You are completely wrong on dragonskin (the disks fell off, not just "sank to the bottom" and would npot reliably stop shots coming in at an angle).
Glue melting and falling off vs Glue melting and sinking to the bottom [of the carrier] are pretty much saying the same thing, and I wasn't aware of the angle shots, I only knew about the glue.
Energy dump is bullshit, especially since the purpose of the plate is to dissipate said energy.
I've never been shot, won't claim to know what it feels like, I have talked to/worked with/been around people who have, this comes from their experience, "there are times when you don't notice and there are times when it knocks you on your ass". Physics is Physics man, yes the plates jobs is to dissipate the energy over a larger area(the size of the plate), its still a shit ton of energy. Yes, I get it, there are plenty of dudes who have been shot and didn't feel it, there are also a lot of dudes who have been shot who have felt it.
so to pinpoint: almost everything you've typed is wrong. Almost.
So you managed to argue three or four of my statements out of two posts of statements, that hardly equates to almost everything I said as being wrong. We seem to be going off on a tangent again, now we are arguing SOP's and actual operating procedures of several different units probably operating in several different areas if not different countries and probably in two different era's of the war.

Once again, I'm not sure what EOTW scenario most of you are looking at, but a rouge dude (or even a dude with 3 or 4 friends) and body armor is still not going to do you a whole lot of good in a firefight without a lot of other things. Your vehicle or house is going to get shot up, either leaving your shelter less sheltery, or your vehicle (possibly) unusable and thats just if you get into a firefight where they are aiming at you, if whoever is trying to hurt/maim/kill/disable you is smart they will have many options. "Hmm they are wearing body armor, okay shoot at their vehicle and and disable it" "hey those guys in that house are wearing body armor, alright shoot out the windows, and any external power sources you can see (generators, solar panels, meter boxes, PROPANE tanks), "hey look at those guys hiking that we want to steal all their stuff, they have flak jackets on, shoot them in the legs and we will wait until they fatigued and their spirits break". My point is yes, body armor is useful in certain situations, not all body armor is the same and no amount of body armor will stop everything, the military focuses on a compromise between comfort, mobility and protection but traditionally focus on protection over the mobility and comfort. Level IV protection is not a normal everyday protection for anyone.

yea SEALS and MARSOC are totally POG's for not operating on a Tier 1 level, what bitches<---SARCASM

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:18 pm

triggerhappy2006 wrote:ESAPI's really aren't IV though(we established they are only level IV when used in conjunction with the soft armor), yes they are rated to stop 7.62X63 AP
No. 1. 7.62x39.
No 2. You typing it doesn't mean it's established.
No 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_Arms ... ive_Insert
n May 2005, the U.S. Armed Forces began replacing the standard Small Arms Protective Insert plates with the Enhanced Small Arms Protective Insert (ESAPI).[1][2] An ESAPI provides protection from .30-06 M2 Armor-piercing rounds with a steel or tungsten penetrator, but costs about $600 per plate, 50% more than SAPI plates.[2] They are produced by Ceradyne, BAE Systems, and ArmorWorks Enterprises.[3]
Now that we've put that to bed.
but there have been a notable number of cases in recent years where dudes with mosins were punching straight through ESAPI's,[CITATION REQUIRED] leave it to closer range, or shit luck . I don't recall saying plate carriers were worn over standard armor, that shit would suck.
that could be just to convince us to wear the full flak over plate carrier
Yes MARSOC/SEALS/JSOTF etc etc usually run plate carriers and less often blast diapers(usually only if they are doing raid on a known hardened compound. Plate Carrier vs Super Flak(http://www.pointblankarmor.com/Military/otv.php) equals lightly armored. Plate Carriers are usually employed across the board without side sapis False, most US issue plate carriers have side SAPI carriers and don't have soft armor[Also false] for additional protection making those SAPI's at best level III, and it doesn't offer any shrapnel protection, with no neck protector or yoke and no goin flap.Also false, US issue plate carriers have all three availible, in addition to the mandatory blast diapers On most PB's and COP's your not wearing flaksdepends on your FoProCon, and what you're doing until your being shot at or going on patrols/raids.
You are completely wrong on dragonskin (the disks fell off, not just "sank to the bottom" and would npot reliably stop shots coming in at an angle).
Glue melting and falling off vs Glue melting and sinking to the bottom [of the carrier] are pretty much saying the same thing, and I wasn't aware of the angle shots, I only knew about the glue.
Energy dump is bullshit, especially since the purpose of the plate is to dissipate said energy.
I've never been shot, won't claim to know what it feels likeI have (stopped by the SAPI), I have talked to/worked with/been around people who have(me too), this comes from their experience, "there are times when you don't notice and there are times when it knocks you on your ass". Physics is Physics man, yes the plates jobs is to dissipate the energy over a larger area(the size of the plate), its still a shit ton of energy. Yes, I get it, there are plenty of dudes who have been shot and didn't feel it, there are also a lot of dudes who have been shot who have felt it.May I suggest not talking in absolutes about things you haven't experienced then?
so to pinpoint: almost everything you've typed is wrong. Almost.
So you managed to argue three or four of my statements out of two posts of statements, that hardly equates to almost everything I said as being wrong. We seem to be going off on a tangent again, now we are arguing SOP's and actual operating procedures of several different units probably operating in several different areas if not different countries and probably in two different era's of the war. Then stop bringing up SOPs (fallaciously)

Once again, I'm not sure what EOTW scenario most of you are looking at, but a rouge dude (or even a dude with 3 or 4 friends) and body armor is still not going to do you a whole lot of good in a firefight without a lot of other things. Your vehicle or house is going to get shot up, either leaving your shelter less sheltery, or your vehicle (possibly) unusable and thats just if you get into a firefight where they are aiming at you, if whoever is trying to hurt/maim/kill/disable you is smart they will have many options. "Hmm they are wearing body armor, okay shoot at their vehicle and and disable it" "hey those guys in that house are wearing body armor, alright shoot out the windows, and any external power sources you can see (generators, solar panels, meter boxes, PROPANE tanks), "hey look at those guys hiking that we want to steal all their stuff, they have flak jackets on, shoot them in the legs and we will wait until they fatigued and their spirits break". My point is yes, body armor is useful in certain situations, not all body armor is the same and no amount of body armor will stop everything, the military focuses on a compromise between comfort, mobility and protection but traditionally focus on protection over the mobility and comfort. Level IV protection is not a normal everyday protection for anyone.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:47 pm

Pulling from your wikipedia link, which I had left out as a reference since I can't trace any of its information back to the source
" For ESAPI, a .30cal M2 AP (.30-06 black-tip armor-piercing) cartridge. This performance is only assured when backed by the soft armor of the OTV (or any soft armor which meets military requirements for protection. The ceramic plate is backed with a shield made of Spectra, a material up to 40% stronger than Kevlar.,[1] to trap any fragments of either plate or projectile and prevent them from injuring the wearer."
arriers are usually employed across the board without side sapis False, most US issue plate carriers have side SAPI carriers and don't have soft armor[Also false] for additional protection
Not false, all the issued plate carriers in the marine corps DO NOT have soft armor, thats what makes them different from a full flak, and gives them less protection against shrapnel but more maneuverability, neck/groin protectors are commanders discretion, and they are designed to be worn WITHOUT side sapis or even a cummerbund.

Side note, I just learned the SPCS (US Army/Air Force Issue??) did come with soft armor, not sure how this is different than our flak, maybe it just lacks the wings.
that could be just to convince us to wear the full flak over plate carrier
Ahh, over as in instead of, rather than, vice...etc etc sorry, should have worded that better.
flap.Also false, US issue plate carriers have all three availible, in addition to the mandatory blast diapers
Yes they are available, and mandatory, just like not drinking and driving, consulting your command before you purchase a big ticket item and go through marriage counseling classes before getting married. Those are all mandatory things too bro, ask how many dudes got married to a stripper or "love of their life" with out anyone in the command knowing.
eI have (stopped by the SAPI)
I'm glad it worked out for you, I know a lot of people it didn't work out for.
May I suggest not talking in absolutes about things you haven't experienced then?
Nothing I have said has meant to be absolute, there are exceptions to everything. I have seen testing, and real world results, sure I haven't been unfortunate enough to have been shot, that doesn't make what I say any less credible.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:54 pm

Do I need to go pull my plate carrier out of cold storage and show you the soft armor inserts?

And yes, when you deploy to a combat zone, wearing the plate carrier with all the plates in it is a non option. I mean, I guess you could have a shitty command with shitty NCOs that lets shit like that happen.

Lastly, NIJ The ESAPI plates are still rated for APM2/NIJ Level IV. I have no idea what the "performance assured" means, but they're sold and rated as stand-alone level IV plates. Not level III plates with soft armor to upgrade to level IV.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by BHP » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:03 pm

TDW586 wrote:I think you vastly underestimate how stupid people can be. My money's on him being serious.

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Yeah, I'm with you. I think ancient serpent threw him that excuse and he latched onto it like any drowning man would a life preserver. Too much bullshit and no real indications it was anything but his firm belief. There is just a little too much in there that is either right or that he still clings to as fact according to his more recent postings..

First off the 7.62x63 is the metric designation for .30-06 so when he said 7.62x63 AP he didn't mean 7.62x39 he meant 7.62x63. The data I have seen for the two (06 and the 54r AP) are so damn close that I too will have to ask for citations to support the claim that several 54R AP rounds have penetrated the plates mentioned.

The "energy dump" claim is absolute bullshit. You want to talk physics then lets look at Newton's third law. While a little oversimplified we can dumb that down to this, there is no more force on the impact end when the round hits than there is on the firers end when the recoil energy strikes his shoulder. If fireing the rifle didn't knock over the shooter it alone won't knock down the guy on the receiving end. If someone went down because of that is because they were precariously ballanced to begin with or the shock, psycological not physical, of being hit did it. As for the observation of the guy getting hit I will just say that there are reasons why eye witness testimony is the poorest form of evidence in court.

In his last posting, where he claimed it was sarcasm, he still stood by this false belief that energy dump still has merit. Not only that he also said that "its about getting the right information out there". I find that ironic that after claiming he intentionally put out bad info as 'sarcasm' he follows it up with the belief that quality info is the key.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Manliest » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:05 pm

ESAPI plates are NOT standalone.
I don't even know why I'm posting here, I only have armor cause it was a tax deduction.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by TDW586 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:07 pm

Sounds like a guy who listens to barracks bullshit and takes it as gospel.

Your NCO's have failed you, brother.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:08 pm

Manliest wrote:ESAPI plates are NOT standalone.
I don't even know why I'm posting here, I only have armor cause it was a tax deduction.
I'm gonna have to crawl through my old DocGKR threads on M4com, but I was 99% certain that ESAPI plates were stand-alone, not ICW.

I am 100% certain that the issued plate carriers have soft armor in them.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Bender711 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:10 pm

Doctorr Fabulous, You, sir are a scholar and a gentleman. This goes for you too, BHP. I am glad to see this thread cleans up nicely.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:11 pm

TDW586 wrote:I think you vastly underestimate how stupid people can be. My money's on him being serious.

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I thought so. Now he is going full :clownshoes:.
ETA: Caveat, I've been told the SF bubbas I knew/worked with aren't Tier One enough. They were lowly SEALs and MARSOC operators, so if the ultrasecret blackops are running around naked, then disregard my lowly experience.
Careful, if he finds out that Underarmor is actually bullet proof he will tell everyone and there will be a big run on it and it will be worse than the .22rf situation.

However now that I have given it some thought I have seen some operators go without armor. I don't think he can guess under what circumstances I am talking about. It certainly is not what he was talking about.
I seen ESAPI's get cracked just from being poorly packed and bags roughly handled.
Me too, that is why you should not pack them like an idiot and drop them in your duffle that will get thrown off the tailgate of the 7 ton on the flight line. Of course I have also seen them soak up multiple hits and not break. I know you don't understand how this is possible but it is physics. But I will tell you in open source testing if they can't stop three they get tossed.
Ceramic SAPI's not holding up to multiple shots is physics not opinion, dragonskin being a notable exception due to its quantity of ceramic disks(the down side is they were held together by glue and had a tendency to melt and sink to the bottom of the carrier), and the displacement of energy by spreading out over a larger area and shattering is also physics.
Dragon Skin was never NIJ certified higher than level III.
It was more to convey the message that having over 2500 ft/lbs over energy dumped into your chest or back is not going to feel good regardless and if you aren't on an adrenaline high or have other guys backing you up, your probably going to have some other issues after taking a shot to the chest.
How would you know? Tell us more about this chemical cocktail. Sounds exciting.
ESAPI plates will stop the older M2 AP out of the .30-06.
^They will not stop 7.62X54R AP rounds consistently.
Actually they will. Unless you have a weird definition of "consistently". How much testing have you done with this stuff again?

This isn't a d*%k measuring contest, its about getting the right information out there, so if you've got anything else that contradicts what I know please put it out there, too much information in the planning stages is better than not enough information(unless you have the dumb).
Just about everything you say is wrong. I don't know where to go. Please tell me you are in the Air National Guard or something.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:12 pm

Bender711 wrote:Doctorr Fabulous, You, sir are a scholar and a gentleman. This goes for you too, BHP. I am glad to see this thread cleans up nicely.
Don't congratulate me yet, I have more reading to do on E-SAPIs, now that I'm second guessing myself.

That's beside the point, as Level IV stand alone plates are available to the public, as well as ICW. Bulletproofme, soemtimes SKD have good deals on armor and carriers.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Manliest » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:21 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Manliest wrote:ESAPI plates are NOT standalone.
I don't even know why I'm posting here, I only have armor cause it was a tax deduction.
I'm gonna have to crawl through my old DocGKR threads on M4com, but I was 99% certain that ESAPI plates were stand-alone, not ICW.

I am 100% certain that the issued plate carriers have soft armor in them.
I remember reading his posts in lengthy threads elsewhere about it, and have the opposite recollection. I also remember regular SOUMs coming out back in the 05-07 timeframe stating that they're not, so I'm pretty confident that they're not.

But as you said, the newest issue RFI carriers apparently have sewn in armor. The old RLCS ones don't, apparently the SF and NSW versions do. Not an issue for us....but the Condor and Cheaper Than Dirt carriers absolutely don't have soft armor, and I don't think the armored ones are commercially sold.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:23 pm

I know SKD's PIG and other carriers can be had with or without soft armor inserts, and they can be bought separate as well. If I had to run steel plates, I'd have them coated with magic voodoo rubber or whatever and then sandwich the kevlar on either side of it.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:26 pm

Do I need to go pull my plate carrier out of cold storage and show you the soft armor inserts?
That would be sufficient proof for your plate carrier has soft armor yes.
I mean, I guess you could have a shitty command with shitty NCOs that lets shit like that happen.
:roll:
Not quite sure what this means, but as every mission is different, it is a leaders job to make sure that the protection levels meet the threat without hindering maneuverability or comfort. Being uncomfortable for long periods of time usually does more harm than the additional protection would give, "Hey now you have to have flaks at your work place and your living quarters when you are in each one respectively" Which for the first 3 days works fine, but then we had 1 Lt not wearing theirs at all (WOAH a COMMISSIONED OFFICER who's a terrible leader, who would have thought), and I'm guessing several people who started taking SAPI's out and carrying them in packs to work(way easier or just not bringing them), which is less useful than having the flak fully assembled and sitting in one place, and thats just in my section. I hadn't seen the 1st Sgt wear his, but our OIC and SNCO's were pretty good about wearing their plate carriers. Bottom line is I'm not sure why your calling out NCO's here at all, you seem smart as fuck which means you know NCO's are usually not leaders, they are thrown into leadership positions with little to no experience on how to lead other than "lead by example" but are told "force your subordinates to do what you tell them". Either way, most of the guys dropping flak parts and side sapis ARE NCO's, and SNCO's. And just a side note, Leaders are born not made, if you want to lead men, spend a majority of time leading yourself, a large portion of your time leader those with authority over you and the rest of your time leading your peers, if you are worth the shit that you wipe of your ass and you do those things, your subordinates will follow you in front of a bus.
Lastly, NIJ The ESAPI plates are still rated for APM2/NIJ Level IV. I have no idea what the "performance assured" means, but they're sold and rated as stand-alone level IV plates. Not level III plates with soft armor to upgrade to level IV.

Haven't been able to find legit ESAPI's sold anywhere but I could believe this, they probably just don't want us stripping out our soft armor so they lie and say its only Level IV if it has soft armor.
Last edited by triggerhappy2006 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Bender711 wrote:Doctorr Fabulous, You, sir are a scholar and a gentleman. This goes for you too, BHP. I am glad to see this thread cleans up nicely.
Don't congratulate me yet, I have more reading to do on E-SAPIs, now that I'm second guessing myself.

That's beside the point, as Level IV stand alone plates are available to the public, as well as ICW. Bulletproofme, soemtimes SKD have good deals on armor and carriers.
Well don't panic but it is possible that you both may be right. Although in one case it is just dumb luck. The original ESAPI lacked pressed Dyneema backer attached to the backface of the ceramic layer, which performs the same function soft armor does for ICW plates. The original SAPI and some ESAPI prototypes were ICW only, and some of them did specify this on the label. They were also thinner than current plates. However anyone who has deployed in the last 20 months or so should have the new plates even if their unit/ CIF issued them the old plates. I won't say what the "secret" plan was to get the new plates fielded but it was ingenious. You definitely have the new plates since you just redeployed.

If you buy them on the commercial market you need to be careful and know what you are looking at.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:30 pm

TDW586 wrote:Sounds like a guy who listens to barracks bullshit and takes it as gospel.

Your NCO's have failed you, brother.

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Damn, he just proved you right again. This kid is amazing.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by BHP » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:32 pm

Honestly I would be surprised if the SAPI or ESAPI were stand alone, the soldiers load issues alone would make in conjunction plates make a lot more sense. I don't feel comfortable saying one way or the other because policy requires it be worn complete, soft armor and hard plates. Given the issues we have had with lower back injuries from people just hopping off the back of a truck with that kind of load I would think (hope) that they would opt for the lighter IC plates. We need to shed weight as best we can and not add to it needlessly. This alone was reason enough to sideline Dragonskin. That shit was heavy even when compared to the old IBA (original stuff anyway, maybe they have something new..).

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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 pm

But as you said, the newest issue RFI carriers apparently have sewn in armor.
^ That is a distinct possibility.
.but the Condor and Cheaper Than Dirt carriers absolutely don't have soft armor, and I don't think the armored ones are commercially sold.
I'm not positive but the Scalable plate carrier was made by condor, or at least marketed by condor I'm pretty sure.
Me too, that is why you should not pack them like an idiot and drop them in your duffle that will get thrown off the tailgate of the 7 ton on the flight line. Of course I have also seen them soak up multiple hits and not break. I know you don't understand how this is possible but it is physics. But I will tell you in open source testing if they can't stop three they get tossed.
I've seen them do that too...I've also seen them get punched through on the first hit albeit, those were side sapis and once again it wasn't x39 it was X54R. Yes, I didn't touch the ESAPI, or wasn't on the patrol but I got to hear about it for weeks afterwards, now sure that could've been the commands way of covering up the fact that they weren't(but wait those are mandatory!!) wearing any side ESAPI's, but we had several incidents where a x54R round caused several KIA's by punching through a side ESAPI. Now maybe it had something to do with the smaller surface area of the side plate vs the full size front plate, but thats what we were told and told again,

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:04 pm

No, the SPC was made by Eagle industries, not by Condor.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:11 pm

I've seen them do that too...I've also seen them get punched through on the first hit albeit, those were side sapis and once again it wasn't x39 it was X54R. Yes, I didn't touch the ESAPI, or wasn't on the patrol but I got to hear about it for weeks afterwards, now sure that could've been the commands way of covering up the fact that they weren't(but wait those are mandatory!!) wearing any side ESAPI's, but we had several incidents where a x54R round caused several KIA's by punching through a side ESAPI. Now maybe it had something to do with the smaller surface area of the side plate vs the full size front plate, but thats what we were told and told again,
With such irrefutable sources, second and third hand accounts of what happened on a patrol you were not on in a shady command environment where apparently everyone is not wearing their side plates (oh go figure) so you want to spread the joy that ESAPI plates are worthless to encourage others not to wear them even though you really have no clue?

Amazing.

That is exactly the kind of horse shit that gets people killed. Hope you are proud.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:19 pm

Did it have sewn in soft armor? I'll straight up admit I have never messed with it that in depth, if it has sewn in armor thats news to me. I went to put my plates in, it didn't have the kevlar in same pouch as the plates and didn't separate pouches or feel like the MTV thickness wise(much thinner and lighter) couple that by our command(Senior SNCO's and Officers) telling us(SNCO's, NCO's and juniors) plate carriers were to only be worn on mounted patrols due to its insufficient ballistic protection(they also told us the soft armor was useless against any kind of SAF even pistol) I assessed it didn't have any soft armor. If it doesn't feel like it has soft armor, it doesn't give the same protection against SAF why would it have the same set up as an MTV/OTV etc etc. The new PC is the same thing it can just be adapted to use the cummerbund from the IMTV, which is something a lot of people did with the SPC and were told "you modified your issued body armor, now the SGLI won't cover you if you die in combat". (which to this day I have never seen someone denyed SGLI nor do I see a reason switching cummerbunds makes it less effective). I haven't even unpacked my PC yet because we were told the command wouldn't allow us to wear them, mine is sitting in storage. I just stripped the IMTV down to just the front/back and cummerbund and wear that, it essentially offers all the same protection as the plate carrier (more because it has the little wings and soft armor(which IF the PC DOES have soft armor sewn in then it doesn't cover any area the plate doesn't).

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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:20 pm

AAR's and BDA's are hardly irrefutable sources, and they aren't really second or third hand. How the fuck do you think anyone outside the patrol goes about learning what happened. Not everyone can be on every patrol.

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