Body Armor

Items to keep you alive in the event you must evacuate: discussions of basic Survival Kits commonly called "Bug Out Bags" or "Go Bags"

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Re: Body Armor

Post by AKFTW » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:49 pm

Blacksmith wrote:Well now we don't want to criticize what goes on between consenting adults. Lots of people have odd piercings.
:lol:
docdredd wrote:those pandas need to harden the fuck up
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Bender711
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Bender711 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:37 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'm a bit confused. As a measure to save your life when getting shot at, you think they're fine, but if you were going to get shot at you'd upgrade? I'm having hard time understanding what the message is. Would you or would you not wear these confident that they would save your life if you believed you would get shot at by rifle fire?
What I mean is the chances of me getting shot are pretty low running carbine classes and such. As such I can't justify ten times the price for slightly better performance. The steel will stop all the rounds I've shot at it but there is a slightly higher risk of spalling and deflection, not to mention weight.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Bender711 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:40 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
I am not sure what you are basing your estimates on. Do you have some time lapse imagery showing the lack of spalling? I would be really interested in seeing that for a variety of reasons.
I've been planning on putting the plates in a carrier and testing how much spall makes it through the carrier, but life keeps getting in the way.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by AKFTW » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:53 pm

Bender711 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'm a bit confused. As a measure to save your life when getting shot at, you think they're fine, but if you were going to get shot at you'd upgrade? I'm having hard time understanding what the message is. Would you or would you not wear these confident that they would save your life if you believed you would get shot at by rifle fire?
What I mean is the chances of me getting shot are pretty low running carbine classes and such. As such I can't justify ten times the price for slightly better performance. The steel will stop all the rounds I've shot at it but there is a slightly higher risk of spalling and deflection, not to mention weight.
Steel plates are WORSE than no armor at all. Seriously, that spall will fuck your shit up, and they weigh a metric ass ton.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:03 pm

AKFTW wrote:
Bender711 wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote: I'm a bit confused. As a measure to save your life when getting shot at, you think they're fine, but if you were going to get shot at you'd upgrade? I'm having hard time understanding what the message is. Would you or would you not wear these confident that they would save your life if you believed you would get shot at by rifle fire?
What I mean is the chances of me getting shot are pretty low running carbine classes and such. As such I can't justify ten times the price for slightly better performance. The steel will stop all the rounds I've shot at it but there is a slightly higher risk of spalling and deflection, not to mention weight.
Steel plates are WORSE than no armor at all. Seriously, that spall will fuck your shit up, and they weigh a metric ass ton.
That is two of the reasons why the IA quit wearing them. I know two guys that got their necks and faces looking like swiss cheese. They did live though. I don't know of any that died due to spalling but there is not telling for sure.

I can't find anything OS on Army testing and I don't think it is out there. Too bad really.

Steel plates are good for turrets. But look at this turret:

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See how the plates are angled away from the gunner? Angling the plate towards the parts you want protected will not work out in your favor.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Bender711 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:34 pm

I'll take shrapnel to an extremity over a direct hit to the vitals. Did you see the cutting board trick used in the arfcom thread linked? I might give that a try if I ever get around to testing spalling. I'm not saying that steel is ideal, just cost effective for people not seriously threatened on a daily basis.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by AKFTW » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:39 pm

Bender711 wrote:I'll take shrapnel to an extremity over a direct hit to the vitals. Did you see the cutting board trick used in the arfcom thread linked? I might give that a try if I ever get around to testing spalling. I'm not saying that steel is ideal, just cost effective for people not seriously threatened on a daily basis.
I don't know man, I'm all for tinkering and shit but by the time you rig up some redneck spall catcher, you've just added another 2lbs at least of extra weight, extra thickness, and not to mention the cost for materials and testing. If you don't think you are likely to get shot, just don't bother with armor. If you are concerned about stopping bullets, get a real ceramic or ceramic+HDPE plate that is rated to stop shit and has been tested by professionals. Leave the DIY armor for vehicles and funsies.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by ancient_serpent » Fri Apr 12, 2013 12:46 am

Used steel plates in Iraq, everyone I worked with did. Were good enough for me. The carrier's will stop a bit of splatter by themselves, by what I've seen in testing, herculiner coating will get a lot more.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by thechin » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:23 pm

I’ve been holding my breath for two years, waiting on this company called DKX Advanced manufacturing. They finally showed up at SHOT this year to unveil their lineup. They offer hard armor inserts that are made from DSM’s Dyneema, which is supposed to be the world’s strongest fiber. Two things that stood out to me was that their stand alone NIJ lvl III plates weight 2.9 each..... and supposedly float in water. :crazy:

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:31 pm

thechin wrote:I’ve been holding my breath for two years, waiting on this company called DKX Advanced manufacturing. They finally showed up at SHOT this year to unveil their lineup. They offer hard armor inserts that are made from DSM’s Dyneema, which is supposed to be the world’s strongest fiber. Two things that stood out to me was that their stand alone NIJ lvl III plates weight 2.9 each..... and supposedly float in water. :crazy:
Those look really promising. The .30-06 round had some pretty serious deformity I guess they are still working on it.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by Ech0Sierra » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:43 am

thechin wrote:I’ve been holding my breath for two years, waiting on this company called DKX Advanced manufacturing. They finally showed up at SHOT this year to unveil their lineup. They offer hard armor inserts that are made from DSM’s Dyneema, which is supposed to be the world’s strongest fiber. Two things that stood out to me was that their stand alone NIJ lvl III plates weight 2.9 each..... and supposedly float in water. :crazy:

Dyneema plates don't stop M855. That steel penetrator just chews on through any amount of Dyneema.

AMI Tac3S, Tencate TenH, TAP Gamma+, are all hybrid options. They use the same tech as the DKX, but put a thin layer of AR650 steel (Tac3S) or ceramic (TenH, Gamma+) on top of the Dyneema. You do get an added weight penalty, but ridiculous amounts of durability as well.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Bender711 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:42 am

Ech0Sierra wrote:
Dyneema plates don't stop M855. That steel penetrator just chews on through any amount of Dyneema.

AMI Tac3S, Tencate TenH, TAP Gamma+, are all hybrid options. They use the same tech as the DKX, but put a thin layer of AR650 steel (Tac3S) or ceramic (TenH, Gamma+) on top of the Dyneema. You do get an added weight penalty, but ridiculous amounts of durability as well.
I did some work in school on body armor and got similar results. At least I couldn't figure out a way to make a PE plate that could deform steel penetrators. Doesn't mean it isn't possible by any means.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by mateo1526 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 1:35 pm

Yeah ar500 is cheap and it may be heavy but it is cheaper than kevlar or ceramic, but it will stop multiple 308 hits and 556 green tip ap rounds. There may be some spalling but the spalling is designed to go at an angle away from the wearer. Check macs video on ar500 and other alternatives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mt5hJORcbkQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; PART 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1FgutJeyr8" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; PART 2

and sootch00 video on armor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfVAnU8SabY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

bulletproofme.com is also has a great selection. I think they are reasonable priced for kevlar plates. THAT IS ALL!!! :lol: :words: :words: :words: :words:

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Re: Body Armor

Post by BHP » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:52 pm

I'd like to thank Bender711 and Ech0Sierra for actually putting out some quality info in this thread. Early on I was thinking this had gone completely to shit.

All of the hard armor options have their advantages and disadvantages and the truth about steel is that while heavier it is also cheaper. In some ways it is more durable too. If you have limited funds but want something now it may be the only practical option. I have a set of steel plates with what I believe is a fiberglass spall coating on it. We got these in Afghanistan and since we had a boatload of them we shot a couple of sets with just about everything we had and I have faith in them. They stopped everything from handgun to AR to AK to PKM. While I had no way to see if the bullet spall would create a hazard to the wearer I don't think that was likely to be an issue. The amount of material held by the liner tells me that unless it hits on the edge it likely captures the fragments. Even multiple hits didn't seem to throw fragments but as I said I have no real way of knowing based on what we were doing. While I presonally don't know the mechanical properties of RhinoLiner I do remember reading somewhere that it was being used to lessen the effects of roadside bombs. Given the durability it has shown in my buddies Toyota I am willing to give it a try, maybe I will take one of my steel targets to a shop that does this kind of bedliner and see if they will coat it for me.

I have 3 sets of ceramic plates, 1 set of dyneema and one steel. I have decided to look for a cheap plate carrier for the steel plates and throw them in the vehicle along with the AK. The Dyneema are great but painfully expensive and they will not stop actual AP. They do fine with mild steel as I understand it but I am not willing to buy a spare set to try it myself.

Bender, ES, you guys are allright. As for those of you who just threw out a bunch of shit without any real understanding of the facts, you have done a terrible disservice to anyone who reads your crap.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by ancient_serpent » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:01 pm

You said essentially the same thing I did but in about three times as many words. The OP has had his question answered. If you disagreed with a poster in particular, take it up with them, bitching about generalized things is not constructive criticism.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:19 pm

Okay so first off, Level III is the highest you are going to go with soft armor and the lowest you are going to go with SAPI plates, combine the two and you get level IIIA. There are standalone level IIIA plates out there, but they are heavy, expensive and most are only good for one shot. Level IV are specialty plates that usually only executives or government officials wear. Military get issued a level III soft armor and level IIIA plates rated for AP 308, thats why we have the option of plate carriers. If you wear both a soft armor and plates (MTV, IMTV, IOTV, etc etc) your protected against shrapnel on most of what the soft armor covers (along with protection up to .44 magnum I think), and then you have the SAPI's to slow down rifle rounds(notice I said slow down), and the soft armor should in theory catch anything that makes it through the SAPI(hey thats why the SAPI's are supposed to be on the outside of the soft armor!!). AK/AR and some heavier rounds will be stopped by plates alone, however steel will bend with the impact limiting its energy distribution capabilities, so yes a steel plate will survive multiple hits and prevent them from penetrating, the energy is still going to be transferring into your body in roughly quarter sized areas. Ceramic SAPI's are designed to absorb most of that energy by being stiff and then shattering, but they don't hold up as well to multiple shots.
So yes body armor(steel or ceramic) will do you good in keeping you alive after taking a shot, however what most people fail to realize is that the average wearer of body armor also is usually surrounded by 10+ other people who are on his side of the argument, fellow police or service members. Take a 9mm to soft armor and your going to be hurting, take a .308 to a steel plate and you'll be lucky to be standing and have your breathe, take a x54R to the SAPI and IF it manages to stop it, you'll be lucky to have just cracked sternum. Never been shot but I have know a couple people who have, bottom line if you are planning on getting shot with a rifle, you'd better rethink you plan, or have a lot of friends on your side.

Soft armor is better than no armor, steel is better than kevlar, ceramic is the a different kind of better than kevlar but on the level with steel.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by triggerhappy2006 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:32 pm

Second point I have to make. I'm not quite sure everyone's background here but I will say those who are considering buying the biggest baddest plate carrier they can find strap on all the gear they have then load up with however many mags they have then run around and be Mr. Bullet proof. You need to think about much maneuverability you lose wearing a plate carrier with plates, you also need to think about the weight you are adding to your body and the fact that you are going to need a different pack most likely (unless you have a vehicle but then you might want consider armoring your truck instead). Flaks and plate carriers are a bitch to wear, I'd rather just wear soft armor and be a little bit smarter about when and where I stick my neck out, and yes I get it "I'd rather have and not need it than need it and not have it" but rifle protection is not exactly a Glock in the pocket, its heavy duty shit, for Bug IN situation its suitable, if your bugging out, you have a lot bigger concerns, like your vehicle that just got filled with bullets or your pack with gear that is now riddled with bullet holes etc etc. I'd rather be fast, agile and lightly armored than heavily armored and slow and awkward, especially if your on your own. If you are planning on traveling with a large group (10+) sure heavily armored works, but most of the REAL spec ops guys I have had the ..."pleasure"...of working with are generally "lightly armored" or even unarmored, yea sure your at a higher risk but lets face it, if your on your own and slow its not that hard to take a head shot because your back was turned.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Phoenix David » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:07 pm

mateo1526 wrote:Yeah ar500 is cheap and it may be heavy but it is cheaper than kevlar or ceramic, but it will stop multiple 308 hits and 556 green tip ap rounds. There may be some spalling but the spalling is designed to go at an angle away from the wearer. Check macs video on ar500 and other alternatives.
Great videos, answered some questions.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by BHP » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:36 pm

Sorry triggerhappy2006 but you are mistaken. Level IIIa is the heaviest rating for soft armor, Level III is the lighter hard armor (rifle rated). From there there are other factors to take into account. Some hard plates are stand alone, meaning that they require no other protection to meet their listed rating, and some are in conjunction plates. In conjunction plates may allow some of the rated threat to pass through the plate but these fragments will be reduced to the level where they will be captured by the appropriate soft armor backer. Level III is not rated for AP rifle threats, level IV is AP rated armor. Best I can remember the military plates are in conjunction plates and must be worn with the soft armor to meet their design threats. While on the subject of military armor they do not use the NIJ standards and as such they don't have a Level III or Level IV rating. I think the military still uses V50 standards for testing and not the NIJ stuff. That said the SAPI plates in military armor will stop conventional rifle rounds (up to 7.62x51) and the heavier ESAPI plates will stop the older M2 AP out of the .30-06.

I will also take issue with your claim that being hit by rifle rounds in your SAPI plates and "if it manages to stop it, you'll be lucky to have just a cracked sternum." We had soldiers hit with rifle rounds on my first tour who didn't even realize they were hit till after the battle was over. One guy had several hits in his plates, at least 2 being the 7.62x54 (based on recovered weight) and as I said, he never knew he was hit till well after the fight was over. He was wounded at some point in the fight by fragments to his unprotected body parts but the armor did all it was supposed to.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:41 pm

but most of the REAL spec ops guys I have had the ..."pleasure"...of working with are generally "lightly armored" or even unarmored, yea sure your at a higher risk but lets face it,
:roll:
Level IV are specialty plates that usually only executives or government officials wear. Military get issued a level III soft armor and level IIIA plates rated for AP 308, thats why we have the option of plate carriers.
:roll:
Ceramic SAPI's are designed to absorb most of that energy by being stiff and then shattering, but they don't hold up as well to multiple shots.
:roll:

I could go on but BHP hit a lot of it already. Seldom have I seen so much incorrect information posted in two back to back posts by the same poster in one thread like that.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by ancient_serpent » Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:00 am

I'm pretty sure triggerhappy was being sarcastic.

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Re: Body Armor

Post by Stercutus » Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:09 am

ancient_serpent wrote:I'm pretty sure triggerhappy was being sarcastic.

Ah ok, for that much sarcasm there needs to be some blue text going on. I was definitely left bewildered.
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Re: Body Armor

Post by ancient_serpent » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:30 am

I was too, at first. I felt the old blood pressure rising until I got about a third of the way through. No way he really meant that stuff.

Right?

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Re: Body Armor

Post by TDW586 » Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:54 am

I think you vastly underestimate how stupid people can be. My money's on him being serious.

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