Urgent advice required: ExPed Downmat

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

So I just ordered one of these...


http://www.kellysbasecamp.com.au/p/5405913/exped---downmat-7-lw-ul-sleeping-mat.html
ExPed Downmat 7 LW (long wide) Ultra Light. About 750 grams all up.

However I just noticed this..

Note that this fabric is not a puncture resistant as the one used on the standard versions of the mat and carries a 2 year warranty opposed to the 5 year warranty

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I still have enough time to change the order as it's Sunday night here. So the question is: As this is for bugging out/survival gear as much as camping gear do I eat an extra 360 grams and change the order to the more durable one of these?


http://www.kellysbasecamp.com.au/p/1154168/exped---downmat-7-lw-sleeping-mat.html
ExPed Downmat 7 LW (long wide). About 1110 grams.



I've got a couple of hours before I can't change the order due to time differences I'm thinking.

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[majorhavoc]

That 360 gram difference is almost a pound weight savings. I'm normally all about shaving ounces where ever they can be found, and cutting out almost a full pound on a single piece of kit is no trifling matter.

However, in this case, when I read that official disclaimer about the ExPed UL being less durable and the severely reduced warranty period (2 years vs 5 years), I take that to be a tacit admission that the product you ordered is fairly prone to punctures and is targeted for the extremely conscientious ultra lightweight backpacker who is compulsive about clearing the sleeping area of all puncture threats and scrupulously caring for his kit.

That's almost the polar opposite of a bug out situation. God forbid you ever find yourself in a real one, TGC, but you'll be under extreme stress and could well be bedding down in a less than ideal site with all manner of sharp, prickly things scattered about.

If you're committed to the idea of an inflatable sleeping pad (as opposed to something absolutely bombproof like a closed cell foam system), then I would definitely change your order in favor of the heavier, more durable model if you still have time.

[BullOnParade]

I agree. The extra weight is quite a bit, but this is a piece of kit you need to rely on in harsh conditions. I vote for the more bombproof option.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking too guys.

I've done enough sleeping on everything from closed cell pads and thin self inflating pads to piled up brush and cardboard over the years. I've been wanting an inflatable down filled mat for a couple of years now because my left shoulder gets affected when I sleep on that side after rolling over in my sleep unless I'm on something comfortable. The high R value of 5.9 (both the 7 and the 7 UL) allows me to get away with a lighter sleeping bag as well so the weight gain is offset there somewhat. Also, my main bug out shelter system this will be used with is a bivvy bag under a tarp so that R value is pretty important in really cold conditions as opposed to a 4 season tent dealio.

I think I will send off the e-mail asking for the change to the heavier 7 and make up the price difference in an extra patch kit (just to be sure) so they don't think they're missing out.

http://www.kellysbasecamp.com.au/p/6193962/exped---mat-repair-kit.html

Thanks team.

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[GSHX2]

I tend to lean toward the more bomb proof the quicker it can kill you. Exposure is a relatively quick killer so it is worth the extra weight in my mind. You can try some cuben fiber as a ground cloth for light weight puncture resistance either way you go. Check out their YouTube video link on puncture and tear resistance about half way down, pretty amazing.

http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml

I have some at the house if you want true measured weights after I get home tonight.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

I tend to lean toward the more bomb proof the quicker it can kill you. Exposure is a relatively quick killer so it is worth the extra weight in my mind. You can try some cuben fiber as a ground cloth for light weight puncture resistance either way you go. Check out their YouTube video link on puncture and tear resistance about half way down, pretty amazing.

http://www.zpacks.com/materials.shtml

I have some at the house if you want true measured weights after I get home tonight.

Thanks Golden Spurs (Garry Owens btw?).

I just looked at that link of yours, I was considering Tyvek as a footprint for the bivvy previously and note that the Z-Pack people rate it as highly as some ZS people (Most notably some members of ZSC-001) do. If you are keen to weigh some of your Cuben I'd be interested to check it out.

E-mail sent to the vendors. We'll see what happens.

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[GSHX2]

I've got some of the heavy duty cuben for making some home spun stuff sacks. I brought an 8" X 8" sample into work and told some of my pissed off co-workers (it was near the end of a bad day) to destroy it, no knives. One guy broke his cheap pen trying to puncture it and no one could rip the thing until one crafty bugger took a lighter to it and delaminated it. It then proceeded to rip quite easily. Cuben fiber confetti all over the office but three co-workers that were happier at the end of their shift!

Really it is amazing stuff, in the heavy weight anyway as my experience allows. I have 6ft. that is as it came in the mail, I'll throw it on the scale when I get home in about 7 hours.

(I was "Brave Rifles")

[ODA 226]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

[BullOnParade]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

The advantage to going with a down inflatable mat is that when it fails, you are not left with nothing. You still have material between you and the ground. It's not as robust as a closed cell pad, but it doesn't take up the same amount of space either. I would recommend a patch kit for anyone who intends to put an inflatable sleep pad in a BOB or INCH kit.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

Haha, some one once told me, "never trust rubber" - he was talking about both tyres and prophylactics. Your wisdom is as always noted, appreciated and taken on board.

I currently have a NATO folding mat that I was going to relegate to a sitting pad, I figure having it on hand in that capacity allows it to also act as the back up/built in redundancy sleeping pad should the DownMat suffer a catastrophic failure. Any loss of warmth due to the difference in R values can be made up with a sleeping bag liner I intend to have packed (about an extra 10 degrees) and/or my poncho liner (warmth gain unknown). Also there is still a layer of down in the mat should the inflatable part fail.

Your truism "travel too light, freeze at night" has stuck with me since I heard it . I HATE sleeping cold.

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Thanks again Golden Spurs.

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[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

The advantage to going with a down inflatable mat is that when it fails, you are not left with nothing. You still have material between you and the ground. It's not as robust as a closed cell pad, but it doesn't take up the same amount of space either.

220 grams of 700 in/oz high loft Goose down in the case of the 7 LW.

I would recommend a patch kit for anyone who intends to put an inflatable sleep pad in a BOB or INCH kit.

Definitely.




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[Woods Walker]

I have been using the standard weight downmats from when they first came out. The old valves failed twice both in sub zero temps but the new 2010 pad with flat valves has been working great.

Downnmat 9 DLX.



Downmat 7 xs with Ridgerest.



I prefer more durable gear but with air pads you have to put a ground sheet down first and I never trust them without a closed cell backup so maybe the more UL pad won't be an issue. Also the valves not punctures tend to be more problematic with airpads. Still there are worst places to spend extra weight than an increased durability in something holding air.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

I have been using the standard weight downmats from when they first came out. The old valves failed twice both in sub zero temps but the new 2010 pad with flat valves has been working great.

Downnmat 9 DLX.



Downmat 7 xs with Ridgerest.



I prefer more durable gear but with air pads you have to put a ground sheet down first and I never trust them without a closed cell backup so maybe the more UL pad won't be an issue. Also the valves not punctures tend to be more problematic with airpads. Still there are worst places to spend extra weight than an increased durability in something holding air.

The 9 DLX was what I was originally lusting after (it's been superseded by the 9 LW) but I don't have ice and snow to deal with in my AO so traded down to the 7's for the size and weight gains. I was always going to put something like a combination of a polarshield sportsman's blanket and tyvek in or under the bivvy so we'll see how that goes I guess.

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[Woods Walker]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

The advantage to going with a down inflatable mat is that when it fails, you are not left with nothing. You still have material between you and the ground. It's not as robust as a closed cell pad, but it doesn't take up the same amount of space either. I would recommend a patch kit for anyone who intends to put an inflatable sleep pad in a BOB or INCH kit.

I had a downmat go flat in -20’s F. I wasn’t left with nothing but not that far off. The down compressed under my body weight. Without loft down offers nearly nothing in terms of R value. I packed one of those thin European pads but it combined with the deflated downmat fell far far short. The falure was within the valves so my patch kit wouldn’t have helped. But then again 3 am in the cranking cold how many people would be successful finding the location of a very small leak? Don’t get me wrong, I use insulated inflatables all the time but also take a good closed cell pad. I do think the newer flat valves are much more dependable.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Anything inflatable will fail and usually at the worst possible time.

The advantage to going with a down inflatable mat is that when it fails, you are not left with nothing. You still have material between you and the ground. It's not as robust as a closed cell pad, but it doesn't take up the same amount of space either. I would recommend a patch kit for anyone who intends to put an inflatable sleep pad in a BOB or INCH kit.

I had a downmat go flat in -20’s F. I wasn’t left with nothing but not that far off. The down compressed under my body weight. Without loft down offers nearly nothing in terms of R value. I packed one of those thin European pads but it combined with the deflated downmat fell far far short. The falure was within the valves so my patch kit wouldn’t have helped. But then again 3 am in the cranking cold how many people would be successful finding the location of a very small leak? Don’t get me wrong, I use insulated inflatables all the time but also take a good closed cell pad. I do think the newer flat valves are much more dependable.

I'm pretty sure I remember you posting about those fails when they happened, the 7 LW and the 7 LW UL have the new flat valves so I should be okay in that regard. Also, I will have the NATO pad as back up.

Fingers crossed. ( )

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[GSHX2]

I looked through my phone and I had some pics that didn't get erased. These are of the .51 oz cuben fiber that I used to make my ground cloth for a tarp type shelter. I use a solid pad so punctures aren't as big of a concern to me and aren't as much as I thought for you since you will be using a NATO pad underneath.

3 yards of .51/oz. as it came in the mail.


Cutting off the excess Mylar which has no structural integrity without the cuben fiber weave.


Using double sided tape after an adhesion primer was applied to make the hems.


Finished corners.

Still need to add stake down loops in the corners yet. This stuff is like tissue paper light until you get a hem on it, hence the water bottle holding it down as I tape. Seems pretty strong but yet untested since my BOB is still under construction.

[ninja-elbow]

I say got for the bigger one because you're going to want it anyways. I found, after years of getting gear, that I always regret not going the extra $50 or whatever in the get-go.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Sweet, Golden Spurs.

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Ninj, I've been kicking myself over the last thirty minutes about not getting the 9 LW, I mean what's an extra 2 cm packed radius and something like only an extra 160 grams considering I ultimately wanted comfort.

I remember when we both decided on it back in 2009 or 2010

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[Neddog]

I would personally go for the Ultralite. To me a sleeping mat is just a convenient luxury anyways and not something I need to count on for my survival or even long-term comfort. I like to keep these luxury items at a minimum and reduce their impact on weight and bulk as much as possible. But I understand that not everybody enjoys the solid ground as much as I do... I'm not trying to sway any decisions by saying this, but just giving another point of view of what I would do for myself. But bear in mind that I can sleep comfortably all night on a bed of rocks in a leather motorcycle jacket and leather riding pants, and long hair in a french braid as a pillow... and wake up as refreshed as ever.

Dry and bug-free is important to me, softness is not. Hard, flat, even sleeping areas are the best for your back. If you sleep on your back, that is - softer is better for side sleepers... but if you're in a survival situation then you might find that learning to sleep on your back could afford you many nights of blissful sleep in rougher locations. Only problem is back-sleeping makes you prone to snoring.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

I would personally go for the Ultralite. To me a sleeping mat is just a convenient luxury anyways and not something I need to count on for my survival or even long-term comfort. I like to keep these luxury items at a minimum and reduce their impact on weight and bulk as much as possible. Bugging out is all about survival, and traveling light is key. But I understand that not everybody enjoys the solid ground as much as I do... I'm not trying to sway any decisions by saying this, but just giving another point of view of what I would do for myself.

That's fair enough. I had the same opinion 20 years ago. Now I just want a big ass comfy mattress.

The whole sleep and shelter system* has to fit into something like the CountyComm EOD or EOD XL bag though, another reason for compact/compressable/packed.

*except the NATO pad - I still want to be able to fish that out at short notice to sit down on, use as a shooting pad when hunting, etc.

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[Neddog]

That's fair enough. I had the same opinion 20 years ago. Now I just want a big ass comfy mattress.

The whole sleep and shelter system* has to fit into something like the CountyComm EOD or EOD XL bag though, another reason for compact/compressable/packed.

*except the NATO pad - I still want to be able to fish that out at short notice to sit down on, use as a shooting pad when hunting, etc.

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Yeah, I've been back and forth on that and sometimes swing to either camp.... For me, the natural thing is to sleep on nothing but the padding my sleeping bag affords, whereas bringing just a simple closed-foam mat increases comfort dramatically. Generally I don't find this to be too big of an ordeal to carry, considering the difference it makes. Especially traveling on the motorcycle, the mat makes adds hardly any difference at all. But then when it all comes down to it... I still don't feel I "need" it, so I often revert right back to traveling lighter without a sleeping mat again. Especially now with how compact I've gotten my hiking kit to be, a sleeping mat would throw that WAY off and could be used for better shelter instead. I do a lot more travel on foot and bicycle now though, which makes a big difference.

Then there's the hammock... it's almost the marvel of all worlds. When the situation is ripe to use it, it gives you the most comfortable bed, can be packed really small (depending on the hammock of course), and keeps you off the ground for easy light-weight shelter solutions to go with it. I'm getting a lot more into hammocks recently than anything else.

[RolandTHTG]

Have to agree with ODA and WW, anything inflatable will fail you in the long-term, and you can't risk that...

This coming from one doing long and short- range recon for 15+ years... Just my two cents.

As for hammocks, I've started using them since since I became a civvy. You still need a sleeping mat. Closed cell that is. At least for redundancy and flexibility...

Roland out.

[Woods Walker]

Have to agree with ODA and WW, anything inflatable will fail you in the long-term, and you can't risk that...

This coming from one doing long and short- range recon for 15+ years... Just my two cents.

As for hammocks, I've started using them since since I became a civvy. You still need a sleeping mat. Closed cell that is. At least for redundancy and flexibility...

Roland out.

I don’t see a problem if someone packs a closed cell pad for a backup.

[ninja-elbow]

Sweet, Golden Spurs.

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Ninj, I've been kicking myself over the last thirty minutes about not getting the 9 LW, I mean what's an extra 2 cm packed radius and something like only an extra 160 grams considering I ultimately wanted comfort.

I remember when we both decided on it back in 2009 or 2010

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I went with it in 2010 and went big. Now I want a smaller one for summer and one I can half inflate and shove in a hammock