Hey, if you have the time, it's worth snagging the coins. It's just another hobby I wouldn't have time for.

Hello all, responce Msmadmike

RON L here - SERE SURPLUS


Indeed, like anything worth the efort silver and gold coins can bring ya a heck of a return in sales and trades down the road? I see that as worth the investment of time, but I do understand if that starined for you, it might not be possible! We all have our limits and our abilities?



RON

Thanks.

So you have experience buying from both Kitco and NWTMint? My main concern is that I have no idea what 'markup' is reasonable. Another thing is what is best to buy? Will I get benefit if I buy (100) 5oz coins over (5) 100oz bars because of quantity difference? Or does the bigger the product mean the smaller the markup? Or is it all based on total weight and negligible between the two I used for example?

I'm thinking about putting my christmas bonuses, into precious metals for the foreseeable future. It'll be like I'm not missing any income at all and still get to beef up my savings. However, I don't like the market price now... but on the other hand I don't see it going down much as demand, I expect, will continue to rise, given our economic climate... so I'm torn between "wait it out" and "get some before it get's EVEN WORSE"

The more you buy, the lower the markup.

As of right now, NWT is showing on their Pan American brand:

http://bullion.nwtmint.com/silver_panam.php

Silver Bid $17.54 (what they'll pay)
Silver Ask $17.57 (what they'll sell at)

Our Sell Price* Per Ounce (which includes their markup AND SHIPPING AND INSURANCE--most places add those on top)
50 to 99 (ounces) $18.87
100 to 499 $18.62
500 to 999 $18.52
1000 to 4999 $18.42
5000 or more $18.37

Large bars are typically the same price per ounce. Under 1 oz you can expect more markup due to production costs--it costs the same to strike 5 grams as 5 oz in terms of art, power, packaging, etc. They're more convenient to sell to a dealer, but less useful for barter.


NWT does a lot of military challenge coins and commemmoratives, has a branch IN the Pentagon Mall, and is recognized worldwide.

This is 50 ounces:



Kitco is a small Asian family operation in the US and Quebec. I've gotten the owner when calling sometimes. Small, because it doesn't take a lot of people to run shipping, receiving, and phones. They're one of the standard dealers everyone in the business knows and trusts:

Based on spot prices of November 04th, 2009 11:07 AM New York Time

Gold Ask:
$ US 1,093.60

Gold Krugerrand 1 oz
$1,170.15

Olympic Gold Maple 1 oz
$1,148.28

Gold Bar 1 oz
$1,118.60 (Whatever hallmark is available at the time (PAMP Suisse, Credit Suisse, Royal Canadian Mint, whatever is on hand that's hallmarked, assayed, usually serial numbered, and accepted in Geneva and London as fine metal). Best deal. Shipping is not included, but that's a mere 2.28% markup.)

In both cases, you call, lock in a price at that time, then send a check or MO for that purchase order number. Upon receipt and clearance, they send the bullion. If the price suddenly spikes after your purchase, you can call and sell at that price, but you MUST SEND A CHECK, which they will clear and then they'll pay you. This stops speculators trying to get lucky. Conversely, if the price suddenly drops, you are locked in at whatever price you contracted to. Kitco has an automated site so you can lock in prices 24/7/365. Kitco also has running charts:

http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html

I'm considering a 100 oz silver bar for my next purchase, big enough to smack zombies dead with:)

You might look for a dip in the market before buying. End of last year, I made a large silver purchase at $11.31/oz including shipping. As you can see, I could easily get a good profit if I sold it now. The market is still panic inflated, and I'm told by people I trust in economics (known since the 1980s) that gold is the panic metal of choice right now--notice how close it is to platinum.

Silver is undervalued IN GENERAL, since it's a consumable industrial metal and not going to get more common. It's also usually a byproduct of tin, zinc, lead and copper mining. However, it also has had significant recent climbs.

I'm not competent or legally able to advise you on whether or not the price is going to keep rising for now, or if it will drop shortly closer to recent baselines. Look at the charts, look at the history, and decide how the economy and future looks to you. For myself, I'm still buying palladium, might grab a little rhodium as long as it's below $3000/oz but won't over that, and not buying gold or silver until they drop. A year ago was the best recent time to buy--right after the bubble burst, as you can see from the historical charts.

Gun shows, coin shows, etc, you can always buy "junk" pre-65 coins for metal value plus a small markup with no shipping. They're all readily sellable to dealers and collectors.

The name brand stuff--Eagles, Maples, etc, are usually inflated--you pay a premium for them, but when selling, you still only get metal bid price. Not worth it, IMO.

Thanks for the advice. Much appreciated.

considering india just (yesterday) traded USD for 200 TONNES of gold, you may want to make your purchases soon...the bottom may be about to fall out on the dollar.

That will affect the price, but it may not be a long term issue. It could easily drive rates up for the immediate future, though.

http://www.xe.com/ucc/ currency conversion, realtime. Also useful.

The dollar's holding okay for now. but both $ and Euro could easily be in trouble soon, given the banking fiasco.

i'm not talking about the effect of the purchase but that, if a national gvmt is concerned enough about the stability of the dollar to buy up 8% of the annual global production of gold, maybe they're aware of something we aren't. remember, they didn't make the purchase with rupees, they traded their US dollar holdings for it.

Yup, there's a lot of that going on.

We doubled our future national debt in the last 6 months. That doesn't inspire confidence.

exactly.

Hello all

RON L here - SERE SURPLUS


All great points made from previous posters! The fact that the world is shedding USD and Buying Gold and Hard assets is no suprise but it's effect on so many parts of the world is! To many anyhow? Kinda adds a new side to the I'd rater have Bullets and bread argument, right? I mean, one should prep the Manditory items first, but Gold and Silver have a place in your preps as well! That was my point from the beginning! Thanks for great facts and date to back all that up!


RON

and it's a valid point. you can't eat gold and silver bullets are a PITA to make but if you want to hold on to the value of your savings they're hard to beat...after you've stocked the supplies you need of course.

For PAW load up on gold jewellry and prance around like Mr. T

Everyone at the flee market knows the value of a 14k gold ring. Black markets will be the same.

Nope. Most people won't know fake from real, and any jewelry has fabrication costs built into it, which are then multiplied by the retail markup. Your typical gold jewelry is worth about 20% what you paid for it. Complete investment fail.

Known coins or bullion are accepted pretty much the world over, including remote villages in Iraq and Afghanistan. If you pull out the gold or silver, someone will have a chart or a phone for a rate, and there's always a jeweler nearby who'll know if it's real or not, as well as educated merchants and traders.

Just because most Americans AT THIS MOMENT wouldn't know, doesn't mean they won't learn in a hurry if they don't want to starve.

And it's very hard to fake worn silver US coins. The investment to produce fakes is considerable, as is the knowledge base required. The modern bullion strikes are so hi-tech PRETTY that they're hard to fake.

ETA: one of the major bullion dealers sells gold and silver chain jewelry. They sell it at ask price plus 5%. That means they paid less than bid price -5%. That means your typical big silver necklace with a figaro chain sold for $5. That is what your jewelry is worth. I'm pretty sure you paid a lot more than $5 (probably $50-$80) for it.

Gold and Silver are heavy; you can't eat / drink / or shoot them...so none in my BOB.

At most I could see hiding a single gold piece in your kit for an extreme emergency.

To me, gold and silver are BIL barter items for after the PAW (when paper money is worthless). HOWEVER, I still say: you can't eat / drink / or shoot it...so it will be of less value to other people who need to eat / drink / defend themselves.

Therefore, more food (including SEEDS...lots of SEEDS); water; ammo and less "precious" metal.

We sold all of our gold and silver when it spiked last year.

actually, in the PAW, lead (and loaded ammo) will probably be worth almost as much as gold...

Yea, if it's an all out PAW, emphasis on the Apocalypse, I will wager Gold and Silver will become nearly useless... maybe silver less so, if there's a blacksmith who wants some for steel alloys, though a little silver goes a long way, so doubtful it'll be very valuable. Practicality will be the driving force, not luxury.

However, I'm not (likely nor are other metal buyers) looking at precious metals for PAWs as much as I am investments, longevity of savings' values, diversification of savings, and as currency for less than apocalyptic times, if necessary, but doubtful then.

If I want currency for the PAW... well there's already threads about PAW currency, most of them focusing around water, fuel, seed/feed, ammo, and lead, likely.

I was addressing the OP's question about how much gold and silver to carry in his BOB. If the situation is dire enough that a BOB is needed, and paper money is worthless......I'd consider this TEOTWAWKI.

Regarding investments.......I prefer to pay down debt than to accumulate "assets". The debt is a known quantity with a stated rate of return (I know how much interest I will save by paying more on my mortgage)...as opposed to an unknown and fluctuating ROR for precious metals.

After I'm debt free, I could see diversifying with a little gold and silver, but I still stick to my original comment about "real wealth":

If you can't eat; drink; or shoot it.......and now I'll add SLEEP in or on it.......its superfluous to the human condition.

Therefore, we prefer:

LAND (Lease; Agricultural; Etc); HOUSES (Rental) and other real time tangible assets.

To each their own.

I'm a newb, but I thought a BOB was just to get you from Point "A" to Point "B" to your destination / BOL... which can merely be a family property on the other side of the state, or in another state... or a hotel away from the floodwaters... etc... not a "I'm Never Coming Home" INCH bag. Correct me if I'm wrong here.


Yea, I agree, that's why I haven't planned my metal investments for a couple months from now, at the soonest.




True, but land and houses require upkeep and are an investment that requires a cost over time. That's a downside that has to be factored in. Their value is also incredibly fluctuating compared to precious metals and therefore less reliable. Investments, additionally, are also not always about what you want, but about what the guy wants you're doing business with, in many situations. There's never going to be a point where you don't want for something, and when doing business you have to have something the owner wants, to get what he has in return.

You're correct about a BOB, but my comment has to be taken in its entirety......the need for a BOB and paper money becoming useless. This is more dire than needing to get away from a flood, or similar.

We'll have to disagree about Real Estate. Think about Feudal times....the "wealth" of a person was established by his land holdings.

The ability to produce food, and lodge people are immutable requirements of human existence. Example given - owning agricultural land that someone share crops for you = 0 up keep.

As with all things, you have to watch the market and buy at the right time. Example given - a 46,000 square foot Medical Clinic on 3.6 acres of prime land sold in my town last month for $633,000. That's $13 a square foot. Converting this property to condo's or apartments would be a very lucrative investment....................that yields a residual dividend (rent / lease payments).

Gold and silver might accrue value, but that value is only released when you sell it.

Yea, ok, I see what you mean better now.

I will agree that in TEOTWAWKI, I will not care much about my gold/silver unless weight is not a terribly big concern.

No worries .

We all have our own plans .

Pity gold is higher now. You'd have benefited. It's worth selling SOME on the spikes, because it reduces the adjusted cost of the remaining metal, so you benefit more if you need to get rid of it at a discount. It also means you can buy more on the dips for a cheaper adjusted price.

Silver spiked the year before that, and probably will moreso in future, since it's a consumable industrial metal.

Rhodium was just stupid last year, and is relatively cheap now.

I can't shoot or eat paper money, but I have some. If paper money becomes worthless, like my $100,000,000,000,000 Zimbabwe note here (worth .002 cents now, after they remonetized twice more), bullion will keep its value.



Silver is not used for any steel alloys. It can be used for certain soldering purposes, but those are generally not of concern to a blacksmith.