Focus group: Force on force training

[nimdabew]

I am part of a group that is going to be doing force on force training in the near future. I was wondering, if you were partaking in this force on force training, what kinds of drills would you like to be conducting? What type of training or scenarios would you guys want with this training? Think of it as a paid student that is fighting against a professional opposing force. Put yourself in a situation that YOU would want to have some experience with. This includes rifle and pistol situations.

Want to learn how to breach and clear a house or room? Tell me about it!

What about CCW scenarios? Tell me about it!

Want to know how to protect your family, carry a baby, and get out of a dangerous situation? Tell me about it!

I want feed back from ZS because we are all prep oriented and are all about preparing for the worst, but hope for the best. I want to know what YOU want to learn while being able to use realistic weapons. What are your thoughts?

[MaconCJ7]

For force on force, all of the above.

It's typically considered to be small unit maneuvers, however, in a PAW, it can be your immediate family vs thugs. So yeah, all of the above. Structure clearing is useful just for your own house if you come home with a busted in front door. Urban team movements, as well as rural defense is just fun stuff.

I think CCW drills would be the most practical however. Mugging, active shooter, road rage victim, the list goes on with possibilities. I would place most emphasis on mugging/robbery response and active shooter, and in that order of importance. Muggings and robberies being the most common, and also the least amount of warning (assuming you are in the majority that hears an active shooter as opposed to being in the immediate vicinity.

Team movements with limited arm use (carrying a baby, bag, etc) would also be useful, and can be integrated with CCW stuffs. Example: At the mall with the family and an active shooter presents himself. Your main priority is the safety of your family. You must move them to cover, and that alone can take your hands out of play due to a child freezing up. Having a spouse that is skilled with team movements would be most beneficial in such a scenario.

[the_alias]

I would take a course from a pro viewtopic.php?f=111&t=73762 before running around pretending to clear houses.

FoF that is useful would be realistic scenarios say 1 good guy vs 2 bad guys who are trying to mug the good guy.

Either way I'm sure you will learn something.

[Biggin]

So you are going paintballing....?

[nimdabew]

So you are going paintballing....?

No. Paintball is for fun. If you had the opportunity to take a class that used simunitiom firearms, would you take it as a civilian? There is only so much that can be learned from static one way ranges that can be learned before hitting a plateau in training scenarios. Getting simunition training as a civilian hasn't been available to the population at large and having it taught by professional firearms instructors would be valuable. We are trying to generate ideas that a CCW civilian would be interested in taking.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

If you had the opportunity to take a class that used simunitiom firearms, would you take it as a civilian?

Yes. Yes I would. In a heartbeat.

Well that's not likely to be possible for me what with where I am and all but sounds reasonable for you 'mericans that are motivated enough or connected enough to pull it off.

Some ideas...

1) Active Shooter/s vs CCW*.

2) Home Defender* vs Home Invader/s (Point Defence/Barricade vs Room & House Clearing).

3) Mugging/Carjacking/Kidnapping/Ambush vs CCW*.

4) FerFAL Scenarios - Rural.

5) Small Civil Defence Team vs Armed Rioters/Armed Looters (<----focussing on "when not to shoot" as much as "shooting")

6) and just for fun... Rainbow 6 Patriots - Civillians On Patrol (<----Don't do this seriously, I'm only kidding on this one).

*It would be good training for husband and wife teams, buddies, etc to learn to co-ordinate fire and movement, break contact with VIPs in tow (kids, etc) and so on if the solo CCW/Home Defender scenarios are also run as 2 man teams.

-

[DrGonzo]

Sounds like a neat idea. I'd be interested in basic small unit tactics (cover, bounding, etc) with at least one other shooter, along with home defense and active shooter scenarios. You could do some neat "shoot-house" type drills that usually not available to civilians.

[AKFTW]

Room clearing with a small group, as well as CCW draw-and-fire drills would be great IMO. Also clearing alone trying to get to rooms where you have people you must protect and bad guys between you and them would be great too. I can't wait to get some actual training in room clearance with live enemies this spring (going to a force-on-force CQB class taught by a Marine(I think?) who was in the Battle of Fallujah).

[nimdabew]

So after having some conversations with people online, here, and also in person, what I gather is people would be interested in taking the following classes, with varying levels of proficiency (levels one, two three, etc).

Pistol:

Concealed carry weapons, on foot
Concealed carry weapons, working around vehicles
Active shooter situations

Rifle:

Close quarters, home defense
Close quarters, room clearing (questionable application, but fun!)
Close quarters, working by yourself

Shotgun:

Close quarters, home defense

[TheLastOne]

One scenario that seemed to pop up a lot while I was eating popcorn and watching Magpul's pistol dvd was the idea that you might have to drag your kid out of some situation. I don't have kids, but the idea of escorting an unarmed companion through a situation (read; mall with multiple shooters and many panicked non-combatants for example) was thought provoking, to me anyway.

/ninja edit
Also the idea that as an armed civilian defending yourself, you might be construed as the assailant by undercover cops who happen to be there or first responders might be an interesting thing to throw into a training drill. (ie, you are defending against shooter and here comes third party cop)

[Doc Maker]

The legalities of CCW carry? Shoot, no-shoot scenarios for civilians? How to ID yourself to LEO?

[nimdabew]

The legalities of CCW carry? Shoot, no-shoot scenarios for civilians? How to ID yourself to LEO?

This is a really good idea! We can incorporate some shooting as well so it isn't just legal talk the entire time.

[doc66]

Simunitions is awesome training. Expensive training, but awesome.

[deadfeather]

Something I would recommend; learn basic anatomy. It's one thing to know how to shoot, it's another on knowing WHERE to shoot (or buttstroke, pistol whip, etc.).

[nimdabew]

Simunitions is awesome training. Expensive training, but awesome.

High round count and blasting is probably not going to be the focus of our training. I am sure there will be a small market segment willing to pay for round count days, but we have been running the idea mill for types of courses people want to take. What ZS is doing right now, what you guys are doing, is actively participating in shaping what many people in the PNW, and further what a may be a model for other centers in the United States, will be learning. We are still working on our website, but you can take a look at it at www.cascadiatactical.com.

[strm_trpr]

Airsoft and other force on force options exist other than simunitions which is typicaly restricted to LEO organizations, usualy even individual LEOs cannot get their hands ont simunitions. I have done Active shooter force on force training with glocks that utilize a c02/rubber ball system that works well, the balls are recoverable and the c02 is cheap. We have some video training sytems at my work too that are interesting.

I still think if you want to practice force on force an airsoft equivelnt would be the easiest.

One good thing to practice with force on force is weapon retention/disarming a threat. That is something that us in law enforcement practice regularly.

[Regular Guy]

I'm talking with Doc66 of Milcopp right now about putting a CQC class together that is civilian tactics focused. I'm still looking for the proper simulate for guns (I have the knives) and I'm going to host this in a home or structure so that the skills we learned in the pistol course can be put into action. Should be in a few months.

[doc66]

High round count and blasting is probably not going to be the focus of our training. I am sure there will be a small market segment willing to pay for round count days, but we have been running the idea mill for types of courses people want to take. What ZS is doing right now, what you guys are doing, is actively participating in shaping what many people in the PNW, and further what a may be a model for other centers in the United States, will be learning. We are still working on our website, but you can take a look at it at http://www.cascadiatactical.com.

That was meant more about the cost of simunitions, and the pistol kits rather than the number of rounds fired. The simunition round usually costs more than carry ammo, and has a shelf life!

[400 Grains]

Simunitions is awesome training. Expensive training, but awesome.

High round count and blasting is probably not going to be the focus of our training. I am sure there will be a small market segment willing to pay for round count days, but we have been running the idea mill for types of courses people want to take.

Sim would like you to use lots of their products, but the reality is, most scenarios can be run with very few, or no rounds fired. Save the high round blasting for live ammo in a regular range/class environment. Sim is largely about judgement training.

Using airsoft or paintball guns is better than nothing, but neither simulate real gunfights as well as using sim. Between using your actual firearm/holster/magazines, and the "pain penalty", it's as close to getting in a real gunfight as you can get. Students actually figure out what cover means, when they stick their leg or arm out a little too far, and we would tag it with an FX round.

[Kutter_0311]

I've used Sim in mil CQB training and mil/LEO active shooter training, and it beats paintball and airsoft by A LOT.

Expensive? Sure. But well worth it, given the propper scenario.

Drills/ scenarios I'd like to do...

Robery/assault response w/kids & family
home invasion response with kids/family
active shooter response w/ kids/family

[the_alias]

I just moved a bunch of posts out of here to RSB. They added nothing to the thread.

Doc Maker and 400 Grains - please take such future disagreements to PM as early as possible. Thanks.

[400 Grains]

Some links for those interested in the Simunition range program.

http://simunition.com/en/range_program/united_states

You can search on your particular state, and it will give you those approved facilities.

Here's the link for Washington state, for example.

http://simunition.com/en/range_program/united_states/Washington

[JTNieman]

Honestly, I go see professionals because I want them to teach me what I need to know. I don't want to come up with things I want to know. That, to me, is the difference between an instructor that's just playing to my fancies, and giving me a vacation with a gun and gear, and an instructor who knows what he is talking about, knows what it takes to get through a situation and live, and knows how to transmit that information to another individual.

I never went into a Welding, Machining, History, Economics or Biology class in college telling the instructor what I need to know, and I certainly don't think I should be doing it on topics such as these.

[the_alias]

Honestly, I go see professionals because I want them to teach me what I need to know. I don't want to come up with things I want to know. That, to me, is the difference between an instructor that's just playing to my fancies, and giving me a vacation with a gun and gear, and an instructor who knows what he is talking about, knows what it takes to get through a situation and live, and knows how to transmit that information to another individual.

I never went into a Welding, Machining, History, Economics or Biology class in college telling the instructor what I need to know, and I certainly don't think I should be doing it on topics such as these.