Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

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Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Big B » Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:47 pm

This last week I attended a Magpul Dynamics Carbine 2 course here in NW Washington State. The instructors were Chris Costa and Steve Fisher.

Day 1:
We started the day with a safety brief followed by introductions and our expectations of the course along with the instructors expectations. After that we moved into a quick zero of our rifles at 50yds. This went pretty quick since most of us were already dialed in.

They then had us at about 10-15yds working on “driving the gun” and getting rounds on target quickly and accurately. As we shot the instructors would walk up and down the line evaluating our stance, grip, movements, and rifle/gear set up. We then worked on quickly getting to a hasty kneeling position and getting rounds on target. The kneeling position they had us do was different then what I was used to, but I much prefer the version they taught us. After this we coved speed and tactical reloads, malfunctions, and transitioning to our secondary weapons. This then led into communicating with a partner/teammate to cover you while you cleared a malfunction or reloaded a weapon.

The weather this day was awful. It was dumping rain the entire day and temperatures were in the low 40’s to high 30’s. The section of the range we were using this day is basically a big sand pit at the rear of the facilities, so everything ended up with wet sand on it or in it. There was little to no covered area for us to use during breaks to load mags, but at least a couple of students brought collapsible canopies we kept our extra gear under. We ended up calling it a day a little early just because it was so wet and miserable outside. Everyone agreed there was no point pushing ourselves the first day, only to feel like crap during the next two days of the class. This was ok, because we made up for it the next two days of the class.

Day 2:
On the second day we got to move out of the “sand pit” portion of the range and into two bays that were much nicer. There was a large covered area and tables for us to use, as well as indoor restrooms (instead of the Honey Bucket at the sand pit). The weather was also a little better. It didn’t rain on us as hard, in fact we actually saw some sun by the end of the day. Since our class was too big for us all to shoot in one bay at a time, there was about 24-26 students, we were split into two groups. My group was mostly LEOs such as myself.

In the morning my group worked with Steve Fisher. Steve had us working a lot on quickly transitioning to support side shooting. This is something I needed work on, so I found it to be one on the most valuable portions of the class. We then moved into shooting from kneeling, with support side transitions mixed in, and urban prone position.

It was while doing urban prone that I had a major gear fail. I was using a BLACKHAWK SERPA holster for my Glock 21sf. After a couple of reps of urban prone there was enough sand in the side button on my holster to cause it to fail. I was completely unable to get my Glock out of my holster. At our next break I had to flush it out with water in order to make it usable again. Now I have heard of this happening before with SERPAs, but there is a lot of BS on the net so up until this point I was still on the fence about whether or not to trade out my SERPAs. After this I will be getting rid of my BLACKHAWK SERPAs and buying Safariland SLS and ALS holsters. I STRONGLY recommend avoiding SERPA holsters! There was a second LEO in the class who also had his SERPA fail in the same manner, so I wasn’t alone.

After lunch our group switched with the other group and went over to Chris Costa’s bay. With Chris we did some drills with a shot timer, working on our speed and ability to get multiple hits. This progressed into engaging multiple targets. We then we worked kneeling, prone, and facing/turning. Our distances varied from about 5 yds to 50.

Near the end of the day, about 15-20 minutes left, is when my secondary went down on me. I was shooting my AR at about 20 yds when my weapon went empty. I immediately transitioned to my secondary weapon, my Glock 21sf, and fired three rounds. On the third round my hand hurt… bad. So bad I dropped my gun. Essentially my Glock blew up in my hand. Luckily I was wearing gloves so there was minimal injury to my hand. We immediately put ice on my hand, so the swelling didn’t get too bad. I do have a couple of pretty good marks on my hand though. :wink: As best we can tell the round was a double charge (I was using factory ammo).
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Day 3:
This was the fun day. Again we were split into two groups. My group started with Chris in the morning. We started with some drills engaging multiple targets while competing against the shot clock. After this we got to do some running and gunning. My favorite exercise is when we split up and did some relays.

After lunch we switched and went over to Steve’s bay. With Steve we did a lot of moving and shooting. We worked on quickly moving laterally and back and forth. We did a lot of walking forwards and backwards, while waiting for a threat to appear and shooting it on the move. This led to rapidly advancing on a target while shooting.

At the end of the day we all got together and had a little competition to end the class. It was good fun and I managed to get to the final 2, but DQ’d myself on the last target. :lol:

Final notes:
The instructors were great! Chris Costa was as sick as a dog during the whole class, but still kept with it to make sure we all got our money’s worth. Steve Fisher wasn’t feeling so good by the end of the class either, but continued to keep a good attitude. Both of them were very approachable. I have attended other firearms classes, either through work as an LEO or for fun, where the instructors have an attitude or treat you as inferior. This was not the case with the guys from Magpul. They seemed to know there stuff and did a great job relating the drills to real world situations that we may face as LEOs, military, or as a private citizens.

Overall I felt I did well during the course. I don’t think I was a standout student, but I never felt like I was behind the group. I know I could use some more work on weak side transitions and left hand shooting, but we got a lot of good training and practice with this in the class. For the most part I felt the class did a great job fine-tuning and building on skills.

If you take a Magpul class bring extra ammo. We were originally told to bring at least 2,000 rounds of primary and 300 rounds of secondary. I had left over handgun ammo, but I probably used close to 2,500 rifle rounds. This wasn’t me being trigger happy. We were busy and did a lot of shooting! If you take a class, not just Magpul’s, bring extra ammo. I also brought about 30 AR mags and had most of my ammo on stripper clips. It was great during reload breaks to just grab some more loaded mags or just use my Strip-LULA to quickly load up. This gave me the opportunity to talk to the instructors or some of the more experienced shooters in the class.

Overall I am happy with how I have my AR, plate carrier, TT MAV, and duty belt set up (besides my BLACKHAWK SERPA :x ). I did move my pistol mag pouch on my plate carrier because it kept snagging on my rifle sling. Taking a class really is the best way to figure out what gear set up works best for you.

I brought an extra AR and my Glock 22 and Glock 23 as backups. Although I didn’t need my extra AR it was reassuring to know it was there if needed. Obviously I did need an extra Glock. If I had not brought them I would have been screwed because my Glock 21sf is DOA.

I know Magpul classes aren’t the cheapest out there, but if you have the chance to take one I say do it.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby TDW586 » Sat Apr 09, 2011 2:07 am

Double charge factory ammo? Ouch. Have you contacted the manufacturer yet?

Other than that, thanks for the AAR, sounds like some good training.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby phil_in_cs » Sat Apr 09, 2011 9:34 am

Big B wrote: We then worked on quickly getting to a hasty kneeling position and getting rounds on target. The kneeling position they had us do was different then what I was used to, but I much prefer the version they taught us.


How so? Can you elaborate on how they taught you to kneel?
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Big B » Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:53 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:
Big B wrote: We then worked on quickly getting to a hasty kneeling position and getting rounds on target. The kneeling position they had us do was different then what I was used to, but I much prefer the version they taught us.


How so? Can you elaborate on how they taught you to kneel?

Well the way I was always taught was to step either backwards, forwards, or sideways into a kneeling position. Once kneeling I would make contact with my left knee and arm for a more stable shooting position.

The instructors with Magpul advocated a "hasty" kneeling position. Basically if you are already in an aggressive shooting stance you would simply collapse your right knee, almost inwards, to a kneeling position without ever moving your feet. Instead of coming down on your knee cap, the goal is to make contact with more of the side of you knee. If done correctly it "loads" you leg muscles making it easier to quickly come back to a standing position. Once in the kneeling position our upper bodies would remain the same as a standing position. This way we weren’t wasting time trying to get in a nice stable position, but instead focusing on getting rounds down range.

I hope this makes sense. I failed to bring a camera to the class :? , otherwise I would show you some pics of what I mean.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby doubleohseven » Sat Apr 09, 2011 6:07 pm

I've been waiting for a Magpul course to come within 1000miles of me for awhile =P

That's not the first Glock I've heard of sploding. I've seen a .40 do it, never a .45. Usually the typical wisdom is that obviously the projectile was too firmly planted in the brass. It was mid Magazine so I don't know wth. Scary stuff.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby SigFan » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:51 am

First off glad to gear your OK after the weapons malfunction. Yes Serpas SUCK, in fact most everything Blackhawk makes sucks (my opinion only). I have attended classes that won't even allow them due to their tendency to cause NDs & their prone to locking up. As for Magpul, they provide great instruction, they bring no attitude, & almost everything they advocate is about making you as efficient with the weapon as possible. I have been to 2 of their courses & been extremely happy with both. In fact my first class, outside of LEO department training, was with Magpul. That class was also 3 days of sideways rain in 30 degree weather, yes 30 degree even in southeast LA. We at least had the joy, or maybe misfortune, of drying off for lunch and starting over again after. I too was taught their preference for just dropping in place to prone & kneeling positions & have since started using them all the time. Great AAR & glad you enjoyed the class. Don't ever let the "fanboy" culture that follows them around cause you to miss an opportunity to train with them.

PS I typed this on a phone so please forgive typos
"You do not get to pick what kind of bad things will happen to you." Taken from Rory Miller.

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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Jeriah » Sun Apr 10, 2011 12:57 am

doubleohseven wrote:That's not the first Glock I've heard of sploding. I've seen a .40 do it, never a .45. Usually the typical wisdom is that obviously the projectile was too firmly planted in the brass. It was mid Magazine so I don't know wth. Scary stuff.


If it was a factory double charge in the OP's case, would another handgun have exploded any less than the Glock?
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Big B » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:23 am

TDW586 wrote:Double charge factory ammo? Ouch. Have you contacted the manufacturer yet?

I left a message with their customer service. I also have an email in with Glock. Between the two I hope something can be worked out.....
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Jeriah » Sun Apr 10, 2011 1:29 am

Big B wrote:
TDW586 wrote:Double charge factory ammo? Ouch. Have you contacted the manufacturer yet?

I left a message with their customer service. I also have an email in with Glock. Between the two I hope something can be worked out.....


I would start my negotiation with, "You owe me a new hand. Okay, okay, just a new Glock."
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby gravediggerfour » Sun Apr 10, 2011 9:55 pm

Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Unorthodox » Sun Apr 10, 2011 10:55 pm

gravediggerfour wrote:Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9damPjkt7aw

There, ripped it just for you, GD4
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby gravediggerfour » Sun Apr 10, 2011 11:37 pm

Unorthodox wrote:
gravediggerfour wrote:Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9damPjkt7aw

There, ripped it just for you, GD4



Ahhh yeah I have that video somewhere... Thanks!

I might have to try that out as I have been working on alternating knees when shooting from behind cover.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Big B » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:06 am

Unorthodox wrote:
gravediggerfour wrote:Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9damPjkt7aw

There, ripped it just for you, GD4

Thanks for the link! That shows what I failed to explain. :P
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Hoot Harrington » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:19 am

:shock:

Damn that sucks about the 21, glad you're ok.

A magpul class is defiantly on my list of things to do.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:01 am

Unorthodox wrote:
gravediggerfour wrote:Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9damPjkt7aw

There, ripped it just for you, GD4


I see he's changing level quickly, but is he getting his support elbow down solid on a knee? If your elbows aren't solidly supported, you're just shooting off hand at a lower level.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby DannusMaximus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:28 am

phil_in_cs wrote:I see he's changing level quickly, but is he getting his support elbow down solid on a knee? If your elbows aren't solidly supported, you're just shooting off hand at a lower level.

Concur with this. Looks like it's useful for a level change, that's it. A 'rice paddy prone' or 'Haji squat' seems like it accomplishes the level change PLUS gives you elbow/triceps support for more accurate shots. More tools for your toolbox, though.

Sounds like a great class, B. And if I remember the training we did in the USMC, it seems like the weather on day 1 was perfect training weather... :lol:
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby phil_in_cs » Mon Apr 11, 2011 10:59 am

DannusMaximus wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:I see he's changing level quickly, but is he getting his support elbow down solid on a knee? If your elbows aren't solidly supported, you're just shooting off hand at a lower level.

Concur with this. Looks like it's useful for a level change, that's it. A 'rice paddy prone' or 'Haji squat' seems like it accomplishes the level change PLUS gives you elbow/triceps support for more accurate shots. More tools for your toolbox, though.


I love the squatting/rice paddy prone position, but it won't work with armor and chest rigs. Kneeling will, and done correctly you can bounce up quickly. You must get the elbow on the knee though, or you are shooting offhand from a lower level. Getting low is important, of course, and the video does say if he were 200 yards out he'd use a different position to be more steady.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby gravediggerfour » Mon Apr 11, 2011 11:12 am

phil_in_cs wrote:
Unorthodox wrote:
gravediggerfour wrote:Good write up, glad your ok. I still have no clue on this knee thing you keep talking about. How about you make a little video for us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9damPjkt7aw

There, ripped it just for you, GD4


I see he's changing level quickly, but is he getting his support elbow down solid on a knee? If your elbows aren't solidly supported, you're just shooting off hand at a lower level.


I have always been taught to take a knee to the firing side for this exact reason. One purpose that taking a knee at least in a room clearing ops, its a form of non verbal communication to your team mates that something is wrong weapon wise (changing mags/ malfunction) and then you dont come back up until told to do so from a team leader or such. This allows your buddy to pick up your sector of fire if need be with out you getting in the way.

I have been using the alternating knees for firing from behind cover, firing around the right side left knee is on the ground that way you can use the cover to brace the weapon and the right knee to support the firing hands elbow giving your weapon two hard points of support also allowing you to quickly move to your feet and burst from cover.

The only thing that sucks about this is using both knees to kneel on you kinda need two knee pads instead of the cool guy single knee pad.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Big B » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:22 pm

Most of our shooting was done at 50yds or less so it was explained to us it is better to quickly get in a kneeling position if you are in a fight than taking the time to get in a traditional kneeling position and taking the time to make contact with my left knee and left arm.

The "dynamic" kneeling position really isn't meant to completely replace the traditional kneeling position. It really is more for quickly making yourself a smaller target and getting behind cover (like shooting over a car, retaining wall, etc). Also for those of us in LE if we are in a building I can drop to a hasty kneeling position if we are in a tight hallway or room and give my teammates a better field of view. And like GD4 said it shows the other LEOs with me something is wrong.

Now if I had the time, or was already behind cover, or was at further distances I would probably still try to get into a more stable shooting position.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Unorthodox » Mon Apr 11, 2011 12:39 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:I see he's changing level quickly, but is he getting his support elbow down solid on a knee? If your elbows aren't solidly supported, you're just shooting off hand at a lower level.

Concur with this. Looks like it's useful for a level change, that's it. A 'rice paddy prone' or 'Haji squat' seems like it accomplishes the level change PLUS gives you elbow/triceps support for more accurate shots. More tools for your toolbox, though.

Sounds like a great class, B. And if I remember the training we did in the USMC, it seems like the weather on day 1 was perfect training weather... :lol:


"If it ain't rainin' you ain't trainin'" I believe is the adage :wink:

And if I remember correctly, little bit further down the DVD, it has a hustle from the 100 yard line to the 50 and both instructors take a Knee for those 50 yard hits. So yeah it would seem this form of kneeling is "HOLY SHIT FIND COVER AND SHOOT BACK!"

Kyle Lamb has a different answer concerning the kneel but it's to be used in conjunction with a Barricade: VTAC Highsmith Drill

Different strokes for different folks but I'm the low speed guy that shuts up and soaks in whatever Kyle Lamb or the Magpul guys say.

Super jelly btw, I've been dying to scrape up the cash and attend a Magpul class. Sweet AAR and fuckin' sucks about the Glack :cry:
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby DannusMaximus » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:18 pm

phil_in_cs wrote:I love the squatting/rice paddy prone position, but it won't work with armor and chest rigs. Kneeling will...

Yeah, that makes sense. I run a very stripped down chest rig, no armor, so I honestly have never had any interference. A heavier load out could definitely cause different issues.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Paladin1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:40 pm

Thanks for the AAR, I too run the SEPA and ignored the internet crying about it. The ND's are operator error.

That being said the fact that if the crud is deep enough it could completely jam up has me thinking replacement.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby gravediggerfour » Mon Apr 11, 2011 7:41 pm

DannusMaximus wrote:
phil_in_cs wrote:I love the squatting/rice paddy prone position, but it won't work with armor and chest rigs. Kneeling will...

Yeah, that makes sense. I run a very stripped down chest rig, no armor, so I honestly have never had any interference. A heavier load out could definitely cause different issues.


I have a hard time getting out of the paddy prone, my knees just dont like that.
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Re: Magpul Dynamics Carbine II AAR Report

Postby Aikibiker » Mon Apr 11, 2011 8:41 pm

I am not a fan of the Magpul dynamic kneeling position, but that is because it makes my knee hurt like hell due to past injuries and makes it slower for me to get back up again. I do however subscribe to their theory of going straight down to assume a kneeling position since it is faster and eliminates wasted motion.
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