Gear vs Bullets

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woodsghost
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Gear vs Bullets

Post by woodsghost » Wed Aug 01, 2018 8:39 pm

I read or saw a video arguing that almost every dollar we put into gear can get better results if we would spend it on ammo and training. Mostly ammo. I have fought hard to try and keep this in mind, and my guns are very plain jane. I've read a red dot sight is one of the only things which can actually deliver more performance than an equal amount spent on training and ammo. I"ve trusted this to be true, and I feel a red dot turns a 12 hours (of daylight) gun into a 18-24 hours gun. I also have a light on my rifle now.

But I'm interested in what you all say. What do you feel is a good balance between gear and training/ammo? I get that we buy stuff because we can and because it is cool. This is not questioning that. I am asking "if you had to be really choosy about each dollar and wanted to maximize your return in a fighting/hunting/unknown crap happening type scenario, how would you prioritize things?"

I'm sure someone will ask for more clarity in this scenario. If you desire, lets say you are living in a country and you expect a civil war soon or a friendly neighbor to come in and re-draw some national boundaries. How would you balance your dollars?

Ok, now you are in a country which recently experienced some economic troubles and people seem to be ... less well off than they used to. There are a lot of unemployed and you really want to put food on the table for as cheap as possible. But occasionally bandits come around and loot homes. How would you balance your dollars in this scenario?

And how many dollars do you have? Lets say you are on the bottom half of the economic spectrum in your imaginary country. Folks in America would likely see things differently than folks in South Africa, Ukraine, Poland, or Argentina.

But really, I'm not looking too hard for specifics. I"m looking for thoughts on how to prioritize and conceptualize this problem so I can figure out how to allocate my resources.

And yes, saying "well put more money in food and medicine" is a valid answer :) Just please explain the logic of how you arrive at your answer.

Thanks!
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by Halfapint » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:00 pm

All of my guns are plain Jane but I've run no less then 3k rds through all but my 10mm (it has 1.5k). I don't spend a lot of money on expensive RDS's I prefer small RDS's like the Bushnell TRS-25. I haven't had time to shoot a lot this summer as I've been busy. But in months that I'm not working on the property I would probably shoot close to 1000rds a month of 223, 9mm, and 22lr.

I've always valued reliability and functionality over the latest and greatest. Once I get settled down I'd love to find a reasonably priced range that has professional training. The LGS I go to charges 350+ for anything above their introductory class.

So I'm with you, simple, functional, reliable firearms, with lots of ammo and if you cant afford training, watch youtube videos and practice stuff they show you.
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by majorhavoc » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:05 pm

I've heard the following restated in any number of ways over the years: it's always better to get really proficient with a few pieces of basic gear than to have a whole range of fancy equipment that you don't really know how to use.

I firmly believe that basic philosophy applies not only to firearms but to survival equipment, hand tools, field craft, orienteering, gardening, hunting, car repair, animal husbandry, cooking, etc, etc. Spend your prepping dollars accordingly.

See also: knowledge is useless without the skill to apply it.

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by flybynight » Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by Halfapint » Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:44 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
I can say they I lived for many years with one gun, I had plenty of ammo but I couldn’t hit shit past 10yds. But it was a Jennings 9. Sooooooooooo
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by NT2C » Thu Aug 02, 2018 3:20 am

I think you need to be a little more specific as to what "gear" entails but for now I'll assume it includes anything but the basic firearm (Are we including that in the "gear" as something we need to buy, or are we assuming we have one already? I'm assuming we already have it. Something used, plain, and serviceable.) and the bullets. Starting from that I think there are a few things that should be purchased and that will pay off better than the equivalent amount in ammo spent training.
  • A few extra magazines (assuming the weapon uses magazines), because having to reload an empty mag when the banditos are on your doorstep is a bad way to die.
  • You mention a red dot sight but I'm going to just say "improved" iron sights, because the quicker you can attain a good sight picture the more your training will benefit you.
  • Modified grips/stock to better fit you, because it takes a lot more training/bullets to become a proficient shooter with a weapon that you can't properly grip or shoulder well than it does with a weapon that molds itself to you and allows you a more natural and relaxed firing position/posture/grip. It's hard to shoot well when you're worried the weapon is going to get away from you and that's going to cost extra training time and more bullets.
  • A comfortable holster/sling (as appropriate), so that the weapon is with you when you need it. All the training in the world is useless if you don't have the weapon when you need it.
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by flybynight » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:06 am

Halfapint wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:44 pm
flybynight wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
I can say they I lived for many years with one gun, I had plenty of ammo but I couldn’t hit shit past 10yds. But it was a Jennings 9. Sooooooooooo
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it

Unless it's Halfpint. Then you're probably pretty safe. Except maybe if he drops it on your foot, But it's a small gun so no worries ...
As of now I bet you got me wrong

John Titor was right

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by NT2C » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:46 am

flybynight wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:06 am
Halfapint wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 11:44 pm
flybynight wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
I can say they I lived for many years with one gun, I had plenty of ammo but I couldn’t hit shit past 10yds. But it was a Jennings 9. Sooooooooooo
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it

Unless it's Halfpint. Then you're probably pretty safe. Except maybe if he drops it on your foot, But it's a small gun so no worries ...
Except in Mayberry R.F.D. it would have been: Beware the man with one bullet. He's probably waited a long time to shoot it.

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by Stercutus » Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:18 am

And how many dollars do you have? Lets say you are on the bottom half of the economic spectrum in your imaginary country.
I hit the Powerball for $156,000,000 USD. However the revolution taxed the hell out of me and now I am down to under a million. Sadly that million is worth around $200 in 2018 dollars due to hyper-inflation caused by poor trade practices and the my country running up a debt to GDP ratio of 1.2:1. I will buy a bunch of Happy Meals and hold out for Monopoly Game Piece winners.
If you desire, lets say you are living in a country and you expect a civil war soon or a friendly neighbor to come in and re-draw some national boundaries. How would you balance your dollars?
As an uncommitted peasant I would spend every penny emigrating somewhere else where the civil war was not happening. I will learn to say "political refugee" and "skilled laborer" in as many languages as possible. I will probably make for the French coast on a pocket sail boat.
Ok, now you are in a country which recently experienced some economic troubles and people seem to be ... less well off than they used to. There are a lot of unemployed and you really want to put food on the table for as cheap as possible. But occasionally bandits come around and loot homes. How would you balance your dollars in this scenario?
I live in a rural area and assume hunting and gardening are options. I would spend money on whatever appropriate and legal firearms would get me the most efficient game. Then dump a bunch into gardening and small scale farming, likely chickens, pigs and goats. If things were going well I'd work out a reasonable deal to pay off the most powerful bandit gang in the area to leave me and mine alone. I'd also figure out a way to hide my meager food stores as best as possible.
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by Halfapint » Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:35 am

Stercutus wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 7:18 am
Ok, now you are in a country which recently experienced some economic troubles and people seem to be ... less well off than they used to. There are a lot of unemployed and you really want to put food on the table for as cheap as possible. But occasionally bandits come around and loot homes. How would you balance your dollars in this scenario?
I live in a rural area and assume hunting and gardening are options. I would spend money on whatever appropriate and legal firearms would get me the most efficient game. Then dump a bunch into gardening and small scale farming, likely chickens, pigs and goats. If things were going well I'd work out a reasonable deal to pay off the most powerful bandit gang in the area to leave me and mine alone. I'd also figure out a way to hide my meager food stores as best as possible.
I think regardless of what the situation is, this will generally be a recipe for success.
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by MacWa77ace » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:19 pm

I just watched the CHIPs movie last night. ROFL at how the Jon Baker character couldn't hit anything. "Aim 10 degrees to the right Jon, You're missing by 10 degrees." [he was 20 feet away]
woodsghost wrote:But really, I'm not looking too hard for specifics. I"m looking for thoughts on how to prioritize and conceptualize this problem so I can figure out how to allocate my resources.

And yes, saying "well put more money in food and medicine" is a valid answer :) Just please explain the logic of how you arrive at your answer.
I'm trying to think of an non firearms allegory demonstrating the need for upgrading equipment and how 'training' creates a need for upgrades. Here goes...
My first set of weights was one of those concrete filled plastic sets that the bar was hollow and would hold a max of 110 lbs. It took me a while but, I had to upgrade to a steel set of York weights, with a solid standard diameter bar. It came with 300lbs of weight. But eventually, I had to upgrade even that, so I bought more plates. Then, as I kept training, I needed to upgrade that. I couldn't actually afford to buy that next level equipment, an Olympic set, and other equipment I needed so I 'rented' it via a gym membership. And I needed training partners at that point which were also usually available at the gym. [or at the very least spotters]. When I got to that level my 'skill' increased much much faster than going it alone in a home gym, because we were sharing ideas and motivations and competitions with each other in that network, and using the best equipment.

Anyhow, IMHE, you can start with basic equipment because you wouldn't be able to tell the difference between say a short trigger reset and a stock trigger reset, so you would absolutely not be able to utilize an upgrade like that in the beginning. But you hit limitations of equipment with continued practice, practice, practice. That's when you need to upgrade. When you start saying things like, I could probably get 4 shots off instead of three if the reset was shorter on this trigger. And if you don't find yourself eventually saying things like that, then you're not training properly. You're stagnant.

So yeah, I don't start out with the very best most expensive. But as talent and funds allow, better equipment is then required to better my game. There is a balance. I'd never need to upgrade if I didn't train to improve, and only trained to maintain. Of course you have to be realistic, don't put a $200 trigger upgrade on a POS gun with a 10 MOA. Get a new gun that's better first, unless your groupings are greater than 10 MOA with the 10 MOA POS, you need to train first, 'til you know it's not you its the equipment holding you back.

I try to budget gear and training, it doesn't always work out. As far as training goes, sometimes I have the time but no money, sometimes I have the money but not the time. And the flipside if you have the money, you can absolutely buy the best you can afford to start out with and then train/practice your way to utilizing that to its fullest. But to upgrade equipment based on skill increases, spreading that out over time is usually more affordable, yet not that cost effective.

Plus its true, the advanced courses are in the $250+ range NOT including the 400 rounds of ammo minimum requirement.


Both gear and bullets as funds allow.

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by woodsghost » Thu Aug 02, 2018 4:40 pm

There are excellent responses here. I appreciate all of them and I hope for more. You all have more thoughtfulness than I do. I've been doing more of a hard cost/benefit, $$$ type of evaluation.
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by RickOShea » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:10 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
LOL...

More than likely most of those men woke up one day, decided for whatever reason that they needed a gun, went and bought one, fired a box or two of ammo thru it, then put it in the closet (where its been sitting for the past humpteen years). :rofl:
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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by woodsghost » Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:34 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Thu Aug 02, 2018 5:10 pm
flybynight wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 9:31 pm
Beware the man with one gun. He probably know how to shoot it
LOL...

More than likely most of those men woke up one day, decided for whatever reason that they needed a gun, went and bought one, fired a box or two of ammo thru it, then put it in the closet (where its been sitting for the past humpteen years). :rofl:
I thought about that too.... I have stories about some local hunters.... :lol:
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*Be courteous. Look normal. Be in bed by 10'clock.

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Re: Gear vs Bullets

Post by teotwaki » Thu Aug 02, 2018 6:39 pm

Beyond firearms we all need to train with our other gear and ensure it is up to the task envisioned; take the loaded pack on long hikes and camp overnight using only the contents to build camp. Train others in your group how to handle basic radio communications, to have fallback plans for loss of cell service and GPS, what routes to use to get home without a car, etc.

Firearms proficiency alone is just one aspect of being prepared.
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