Realistic Pistol Capability

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Dioxin
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Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:21 am

So I'm getting into shooting pistols at an Indoor range.
They have pulley targets out to 25m.

Using a Walther PPQ with standard iron sights, what is a reasonable expectation on grouping?

I've been shooting pistols around 8 weeks, about 1,000 rounds downrange.
At 20m I'm getting 95+% inside the black (3 inch wide bull)
and at 25m this drops to around 60% as the shots are pulled left a little.

For the moment I'm just concentrating on shot placement, I'll work on my other drills
later. (i've also been doing ~10% range time on strong-hand & weak-hand shooting)
(I've been on a training course orientated at Security Personel, so I'm not completely devoid of
pistol drill)

Regards Dio

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by WutsFrequencyKeneth » Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:49 am

Time is a factor as well. I typically aim for a balance of speed and precise accuracy, to keep an effective size group (~3-4" dia center mass, half that at the nasal-orbital cavity) Accuracy beyond that, if trading for time, becomes a diminishing return. I essentially train and drill to put hits on those targets as fast as I accurately can, within an acceptable precision. If you are stacking holes like a clover, then you're likely taking too much time. I only harp on those points because you specifically mentioned the defensive goal of your drills.

I would take a look at some professional drills from people like Kyle Lamb or some others you'll surely see mentioned in the forums here. See what drills they do to stay sharp, see what times they can complete them, set your bar there, and try to reach it. Don't be expect to get close to their times - they're basically professionals at this stuff and do it every week, all year round, I'm sure. But it gives you a goal to shoot for.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:16 am

Priorities for me atm:
1. Accuracy
2. Clean handling of non-shooting drills, weapon draw, reload, malfunction clear, etc etc
3. Speed

Currently working towards joining an IPSC Club. And so writing it into my calendar
to practice every friday, with a minimum of 100 rounds each visit. IPSC training
would involve going on Mondays as well.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by woodsghost » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:41 am

I am glad you are able to train and shoot!

If you shoot groups the size of your hand, with the fingers spread apart, that is a good place to be. Of course, tighter is better! But as was mentioned, speed is important.

If you are grouping to the left, you might not be pressing the trigger correctly. I group to the right and it is because I "hook" the trigger and pull the muzzle of the weapon to the right as I get to the end of the trigger pull. I am teaching myself to pull the trigger with the tip of my finger, rather than the second pad/bone of the trigger finger.

Which brings up an important point. You want to do a lot of dry fire practice. One trainer I like says to dry fire more than you actually shoot. Shooting is extremely important, but so are dry fire drills. And they are cheaper! :D
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 9:49 am

woodsghost wrote:I am glad you are able to train and shoot!

If you shoot groups the size of your hand, with the fingers spread apart, that is a good place to be.
I can cover all the holes with the palm of my hand ;)

I'm unable to dry fire at home as I dont have the Firearms licence atm, but thats in the pipeline ;)
(So now I own a true range gun ;) it cant leave until I get the paperwork)

I'm not 100% sure if its a consistantly bad sight picture or poor trigger technique. I've had my eyes lasered so they arent 100% atm. I find getting a good sight picture is much easier at 20m vs 25.

Regards

Dio

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Mikeyboy » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:03 am


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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:26 am

Mikeyboy wrote:Here is some pistol qualifications to gauge your skill
SNIP
I did the ACPO Test which is the UK Police test. Which I completed under slighty harsher conditions than the MET Police Officers would.
This involves timed shoots, from the holster, kneeling, 10m-25m, strings of fire, start facing away from target and timed.
Score 50/50

I dont feel that standard Mil/LEO tests are challenging, the UN Security Test is a piece of work.

I only attempted the first course of fire. It was hard. 25m from behind cover.
Never expose yourself to target unless firing.
From rightside of cover, 2 shots righthanded, right eye. Left Target
Move under cover to right position.
From this position 2 shots 2 handed, any eye. Left Target.
Move under cover to centre positon.
From this position 2 shots 2 handed, any eye. Centre Target.
Move under cover to left position.
From this position 2 shots 2 handed, any eye. Right Target.
Move under cover to leftside of cover.
From leftside of cover, 2 shots lefthanded, left eye. right Target.

First attempt 42 seconds 60% hit ratio.
Second attempt 1 second over time 80% hit ratio. (Overtime is auto fail)

Unfortunately I cant do this style of training frequently, I'm limited to lane shooting atm.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by woodsghost » Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:48 am

Dioxin wrote:
woodsghost wrote:I am glad you are able to train and shoot!

If you shoot groups the size of your hand, with the fingers spread apart, that is a good place to be.
I can cover all the holes with the palm of my hand ;)

I'm unable to dry fire at home as I dont have the Firearms licence atm, but thats in the pipeline ;)
(So now I own a true range gun ;) it cant leave until I get the paperwork)

I'm not 100% sure if its a consistantly bad sight picture or poor trigger technique. I've had my eyes lasered so they arent 100% atm. I find getting a good sight picture is much easier at 20m vs 25.

Regards

Dio
When you have a home pistol, I would spend time dry firing while looking at a blank white (or similar) surface. I always just watch the wall, and really look at what is happening with your sights when you squeeze the trigger. Actually, you can do this at the range too. You simply leave your weapon empty and dry fire while on the shooting lane.

You might want to play with exact grip position too.

If your groups are that tight at 20-25 meters, you might consider shooting faster. Great job!
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Sworbeyegib » Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:14 pm

A buddy of mine has been letting me play with his laser trainer, and I'm pretty set on buying one soon. Makes dry fire and kinesthetic shooting practice an home great.

For me, I think that mechanical accuracy on most quality pistols is moot. It should all be about practical capability.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by ZomCon Sargeant » Mon Oct 20, 2014 3:19 pm

Yesterday I shot my Walther PPQ Navy at 15 yards (13.716 Meters) Modified Weaver stance outdoors.

First time shooting after installing my Trijicon Night Sights.

85% of rounds fired were 1-3 inch groups center and the rest were 5-6 inches left and 1-2 inches low from center.

Ammunition used was Fiocchi 115gr. FMJ. (50 rounds total)

It doesn't matter what firearm I am shooting I always tend to shoot low/low left and admit I need to work on that.

The last time I shot my PPQ I averaged 1-2 inch groups center at 21 feet (7yards) Modified Weaver stance indoors using mostly Winchester White Box 115gr. FMJ with no low/low left shots.

When shooting my Smith & Wesson M&P9c at that same distance (7 yards) 40% of rounds fired hit low/low left at about 4-5 inches left and 2-3 inches low. I know that it has to do with the gritty trigger pull and unpredictable trigger break on the M&P9c and my own shooting.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Dioxin » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:30 am

ZomCon Sargeant wrote:When shooting my Smith & Wesson M&P9c at that same distance (7 yards) 40% of rounds fired hit low/low left at about 4-5 inches left and 2-3 inches low. I know that it has to do with the gritty trigger pull and unpredictable trigger break on the M&P9c and my own shooting.
ok lets assume its 4 inches left and 3 inches low, this means a diagonal POI shift of 5 inches at 7 yards.

that works out as 6 feet at 100 yards :ohdear:
Either you or the pistol needs fixed!

It sounds like there is something wrong with your shooting form.
At 25m some of your shots will miss centre mass.

I'd recommend working on;
Natural Point of aim
Smooth Trigger operation
Consistant Sight Picture

its likely one of these 3 is the culprit.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Sworbeyegib » Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:41 am

A target similar to this helped me immensely when I first started shooting pistols.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by 00dlez » Tue Oct 21, 2014 8:56 am

Sworbeyegib wrote:A target similar to this helped me immensely when I first started shooting pistols.

Image

That looks awful nifty... Have to print a few and try them out.
Batman has a pretty good EDC. - Purple_Mutant

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by LJ126 » Wed Oct 22, 2014 11:32 pm

00dlez wrote:
Sworbeyegib wrote:A target similar to this helped me immensely when I first started shooting pistols.

Image

Well, this is all fine and dandy if your aim is spot-on. But if your aim (sight/bore alignment) leaves something to be desired, that pistol trigger correction mini-guide might just begin a wild goose chase of epic magnitude.

If you're shooting all over the place, it's probably not your trigger squeeze or grip. It's probably your aiming. And maybe your trigger squeeze and grip are jacked up, too.

If you're shooting a super-tight group, and it's all in one direction, then maybe it's trigger-related.

If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.
...As the great warrior poet O'Shea "Ice Cube" Jackson, Sr. once said, "If the day does not require an AK, it is good."

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Jeriah » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:06 am

LJ126 wrote:If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.[/b]
Before doing so, make sure you get the same result from several different pistols.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by LJ126 » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:16 am

Jeriah wrote:
LJ126 wrote:If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.[/b]
Before doing so, make sure you get the same result from several different pistols.
I thought that part was implied, given the totality of the post. If your "stuff" - AKA shooting ability - is consistently competent, and one gun shoots off (what competent shooter owns only one handgun?), it's easier to just adjust the sights on the gun than to change your technique, affecting EVERYTHING.

Of course, I forget that total newbies to firearms will read this and think it's my permission to change their sights because they're shooting off. Talk about wild goose chases!
...As the great warrior poet O'Shea "Ice Cube" Jackson, Sr. once said, "If the day does not require an AK, it is good."

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Jeriah » Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:57 am

LJ126 wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
LJ126 wrote:If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.[/b]
Before doing so, make sure you get the same result from several different pistols.
I thought that part was implied, given the totality of the post. If your "stuff" - AKA shooting ability - is consistently competent, and one gun shoots off (what competent shooter owns only one handgun?), it's easier to just adjust the sights on the gun than to change your technique, affecting EVERYTHING.

Of course, I forget that total newbies to firearms will read this and think it's my permission to change their sights because they're shooting off. Talk about wild goose chases!
I was a one-pistol guy until last month. I considered myself competent. I had some minor issues, I'd hit off to the left by just a little. It was consistent enough that I could "game" it and aim off to the right and hit dead on.

Fortunately, I train off hand a lot, so I found that when I switched hands, the problem flipped: left handed I hit off to the right. So I concluded it was a grip/trigger issue, and worked on it.

So actually, I'd do this before even trying another gun. If the problem flips when you shoot off hand, it isn't the sights.

I have a second pistol now, and of course...more guns = more fun. :D
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Sworbeyegib » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:21 am

Jeriah wrote:
LJ126 wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
LJ126 wrote:If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.[/b]
Before doing so, make sure you get the same result from several different pistols.
I thought that part was implied, given the totality of the post. If your "stuff" - AKA shooting ability - is consistently competent, and one gun shoots off (what competent shooter owns only one handgun?), it's easier to just adjust the sights on the gun than to change your technique, affecting EVERYTHING.

Of course, I forget that total newbies to firearms will read this and think it's my permission to change their sights because they're shooting off. Talk about wild goose chases!
I was a one-pistol guy until last month. I considered myself competent. I had some minor issues, I'd hit off to the left by just a little. It was consistent enough that I could "game" it and aim off to the right and hit dead on.

Fortunately, I train off hand a lot, so I found that when I switched hands, the problem flipped: left handed I hit off to the right. So I concluded it was a grip/trigger issue, and worked on it.

So actually, I'd do this before even trying another gun. If the problem flips when you shoot off hand, it isn't the sights.

I have a second pistol now, and of course...more guns = more fun. :D

I have xxl sized bear paws (I know you're a giant, I assume you do too). So my finger wants to naturally wrap deeper around the trigger than most people. This causes me to slightly torque the gun to the left, due to me "hooking" the trigger, rather than squeezing it straight back.

The gun that I have shot the most "naturally" with (the first time I picked it up, I couldn't miss with it), is the M9. Seriously. It's comically oversized grip and controls, match up perfectly to my comically oversized hands. I was expecting to hate it after hearing SO much crap about it from so many people. But what can I say, it just worked for me. I don't know if I'll end up buying one... But I've thought about it.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Jeriah » Thu Oct 23, 2014 3:33 am

I have the same problem. I am working on it by trying to be sure I use the pad of my index finger on the trigger and not the joint. I think it's working. I guess we'll see when I shoot the pistol portion of the Postal Match.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by 00dlez » Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:33 am

LJ126 wrote:

Well, this is all fine and dandy if your aim is spot-on. But if your aim (sight/bore alignment) leaves something to be desired, that pistol trigger correction mini-guide might just begin a wild goose chase of epic magnitude.

If you're shooting all over the place, it's probably not your trigger squeeze or grip. It's probably your aiming. And maybe your trigger squeeze and grip are jacked up, too.

If you're shooting a super-tight group, and it's all in one direction, then maybe it's trigger-related.

If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.
I went to the range last night and put about 200 rounds through my G17 at 10 yards and the chart did help me a little... I think (still fairly new to shooting in general).

After my first 50 rounds, it seemed that most were heading low and left at the 7 and 8 o'clock position... I wasn't taking the chart as gospel, but it made me realize that when I pulled the trigger, I tended to squeeze with my whole hand rather than just the trigger pull motion.

Next round of shots (~50 or so) I was still left a little, but thought that rather than figuring it to be chart diagnosed "Too little trigger finger" I thought it might be how I had my feet/torso aligned.

Last batch of ~50 were 80/90% in the 10 ring
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by Waywatcher » Wed Nov 12, 2014 8:21 am

Whenever I see that pie chart of trigger pulling, I always think of this:

Image

:clownshoes:

Dry fire practice will help. Sounds like OP can only do that at the range--that's fine, do it there. Watching your sights while dry firing will tell you what's going on, unless your dry fire practice doesn't translate into live fire success, which means you just need more dry fire practice until you can always pull the trigger without disrupting the sights.

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by praharin » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:32 pm

LJ126 wrote: Well, this is all fine and dandy if your aim is spot-on. But if your aim (sight/bore alignment) leaves something to be desired, that pistol trigger correction mini-guide might just begin a wild goose chase of epic magnitude.

If you're shooting all over the place, it's probably not your trigger squeeze or grip. It's probably your aiming. And maybe your trigger squeeze and grip are jacked up, too.

If you're shooting a super-tight group, and it's all in one direction, then maybe it's trigger-related.

If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.

Howdy all. I was a pistol coach in the Corps for a while (02-03). The Range Master (Can't remember his name now, we called him Gunny) would disagree. With literally any M9 I ever saw on the line that man could shoot it dead center first shot every time. Countless times a Marine would ask him to adjust his sights because the pistol was off. He would take the pistol, use one of his magazines and proceed to put 5-10 rounds into the center. One day he must have been feeling particularly froggy, because he literally shot a smiley face on a 2nd LT's target at 7 yards. I don't expect anyone to believe this, I wouldn't myself if I hadn't seen it. But no shit, there I was...

Perhaps the Beretta's sights are aligned properly at the factory.
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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by tonydedo25 » Wed Feb 11, 2015 11:56 pm

Accuracy is relative. Do you want to be precise, or do you want to be effective?

If you're talking about defensive shooting, you want to be effective, not precise. A 3" bullseye target is irrelevant for your purposes. Hitting 2" left of center is an imprecise miss on a bullseye target, but a perfectly effective hit on a defensive target.

Precision is also a waste of time. I have a friend who used to brag about how great with a gun he was. He took me to the range and showed me how he could put 10 shots in the bullseye at 25m. Then I showed him how I could put 10 shots into 10 different 6" targets at various heights and ranges, and it took me 1/4 the time, from a concealed holster. Now, I'm not claiming to be a crack shot by any stretch of the imagination, but you tell me which skill is more practical.

I'd stop using those targets and move to an action-shooting oriented target. Or paper plates. Paper plates make the best budget targets for defensive pistol. If you can consistently hit a 6" diameter paper plate, you're doing just fine.

Also, 25 meters is pushing the practical limit of defensive pistol. IIRC the statistics correctly, average range of a gunfight is something like 14m (and a lot happen much closer than that). Only shooting at 25m is also locking your training into a single range. You want to be flexible and be able to assess engage different targets at different ranges.

Participating in action shooting like IPSC or IDPA will do you some good, and will give you some ideas on how to train better. Just don't get distracted by the gamemanship of it, and try to remain practical.

-TD

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Re: Realistic Pistol Capability

Post by LJ126 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:51 pm

praharin wrote:
LJ126 wrote: Well, this is all fine and dandy if your aim is spot-on. But if your aim (sight/bore alignment) leaves something to be desired, that pistol trigger correction mini-guide might just begin a wild goose chase of epic magnitude.

If you're shooting all over the place, it's probably not your trigger squeeze or grip. It's probably your aiming. And maybe your trigger squeeze and grip are jacked up, too.

If you're shooting a super-tight group, and it's all in one direction, then maybe it's trigger-related.

If your "stuff" is good but your groups are off, adjust the sights.

Howdy all. I was a pistol coach in the Corps for a while (02-03). The Range Master (Can't remember his name now, we called him Gunny) would disagree. With literally any M9 I ever saw on the line that man could shoot it dead center first shot every time. Countless times a Marine would ask him to adjust his sights because the pistol was off. He would take the pistol, use one of his magazines and proceed to put 5-10 rounds into the center. One day he must have been feeling particularly froggy, because he literally shot a smiley face on a 2nd LT's target at 7 yards. I don't expect anyone to believe this, I wouldn't myself if I hadn't seen it. But no shit, there I was...

Perhaps the Beretta's sights are aligned properly at the factory.
You see, the Range Master isn't the one who has to carry the weapon. It's fantastic that he can do that, but it accomplishes nothing for the end user.

If someone consistently, without fail shoots solid, tight groups that happens to be out of the center ring, with a comfortable, easily attained grip (for them) on the weapon, why is it plausible that we suggest that the person CHANGE THEMSELVES to fit the weapon?? If the user's fundamentals are reasonable, and that specific handgun shoots off-center for them, adjusting the sights a just a tiny bit is easier and more consistent than attempting to retrain someone to do something that is unnatural for them.

I'm of the mindset that we work with our natural reactions; the ones that have evolved for millions of years to increase survivability. When the adrenaline is pumping, you're not going to think about your trigger finger much at all - and that's a good thing. However, if every time we shoot we have to make a point to consciously engage our trigger finger in a specific, unnatural placement, how does this correlate with our natural reactions under stress? Sure, you can retrain... and maybe make the unnatural natural...
...As the great warrior poet O'Shea "Ice Cube" Jackson, Sr. once said, "If the day does not require an AK, it is good."

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