Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

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Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Redeyes » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:46 am

Some pistols have huge slide releases. So much so that they make thumbs high grips for shooting less than optimal. Using a thumbs high grip with them often won't allow your pistol to lock back on the next round. Case in point; the Sig 2022. http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductD ... p2022.aspx

So, what do you favor on a pistol that comes from the factory with a large slide release? Use the slide release or overhand rack?
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by woodsghost » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:09 am

I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best. I also think whatever you are doing, you should be able to do it in winter gloves. Not just machanix or shooting gloves, I mean your winter gloves.

Given that I want gross motor movements, operate with gloves, and the fact that you sometimes accidentally stop the slide from catching, I"m inclined towards always operating the slide. It works as long as the weapon works.

But I"m not an expert here. I'm really not. I just try to listen to them and figure out what works for me.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by nolongpork » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:41 am

I keep my movements common, to clear malfunctions I was trained by Uncle Sugar to do "tap rack bang" for malfunctions. So I reload using the same movements so I keep it common by racking the slide.

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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by crypto » Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:58 am

I like a simplified manual of arms. overhand rack for emergency reloads, overhand rack for malfunctions. It might be a fraction of a second slower but it works for me. Most of the time the rack is un-needed anyway because the slide closes on mag release/.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:02 pm

Overhand. Fucked up thumb means most slide releases are difficult.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Stercutus » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:47 pm

Overhand. Would not want to break 30 years of muscle memory even if I could. Even so, being a non pro shooter I find it much easier under stress.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by crypto » Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:52 pm

In direct response to the question 'what would you do if you bought a pistol with a giant slide stop' my answer would be 'reduce the size of the slide stop somehow'. Nominally with a parts replacement, but if that's not an option, I've got a drawer full of metal files and some parkerizing solution.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:06 pm

Redeyes wrote:Using a thumbs high grip with them often won't allow your pistol to lock back on the next round.

So, what do you favor on a pistol that comes from the factory with a large slide release? Use the slide release or overhand rack?
I missed this. Shoot thumbs-forward on those guns. You already have to tailor your hold to each gun, right? Different ergos, recoil impulse.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Sworbeyegib » Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:26 pm

I do overhand racks because it makes it easier when shooting multiple pistols a day, there is no re-familiarizing myself to where the slide release is on different pistols.

I've seen a lot of friends fumble looking for a slide release because they forgot for a second where it was on that particular gun.

The only time I really use the slide release is when I'm doing a timed event of some sort, at which point I've pretty much know exactly where my reloads are going to be and want to shave as much time off as possible.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by zero11010 » Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:49 pm

Personally, I alternate depending on the weapon I'm using. With most pistols I use the slide release. It's quick, and it's muscle memory for me. When I switch to my 1911 the slide release is far enough forward that I have to adjust my grip slightly to hit the release, so, with the 1911 I rack the slide allowing me to maintain my firing grip.

The primary pistol I train with is my P226, and with that I can very easily manipulate the slide release.

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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Murph » Thu Sep 25, 2014 2:04 pm

nolongpork wrote:I keep my movements common, to clear malfunctions I was trained by Uncle Sugar to do "tap rack bang" for malfunctions. So I reload using the same movements so I keep it common by racking the slide.
What do you do when you get a double feed then? Are you discounting the whole idea of hitting the mag release and grabbing a new mag on a reload? The way I see it is: I want one optimal way to draw, one optimal way to do a slide lock reload, one optimal way to do a slide forward reload, one optimal way to immediately handle malfunctions, one optimal way to remedially handle malfunctions, one optimal way to pull the trigger, one optimal way to holster. And will those techniques work if I'm shooting one handed? A pruned decision tree makes for fast processing. Why try to make a single technique work for multiple different circumstances?
woodsghost wrote:I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best.
I don't buy the whole "gross motor movements" line. We're talking about lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol, and not disturbing their alignment while pushing a several pound lever rearward. So, yeaaah...
Redeyes wrote:So, what do you favor on a pistol that comes from the factory with a large slide release? Use the slide release or overhand rack?
I think that deciding on a pistol based on a single feature is probably short sighted, unless of course everything else was exactly the same. At that point I'd say buy whatever fits the training you've received.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by nolongpork » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:42 pm

Murph wrote:
nolongpork wrote:I keep my movements common, to clear malfunctions I was trained by Uncle Sugar to do "tap rack bang" for malfunctions. So I reload using the same movements so I keep it common by racking the slide.
What do you do when you get a double feed then? Are you discounting the whole idea of hitting the mag release and grabbing a new mag on a reload? The way I see it is: I want one optimal way to draw, one optimal way to do a slide lock reload, one optimal way to do a slide forward reload, one optimal way to immediately handle malfunctions, one optimal way to remedially handle malfunctions, one optimal way to pull the trigger, one optimal way to holster. And will those techniques work if I'm shooting one handed? A pruned decision tree makes for fast processing. Why try to make a single technique work for multiple different circumstances?
woodsghost wrote:I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best.
I don't buy the whole "gross motor movements" line. We're talking about lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol, and not disturbing their alignment while pushing a several pound lever rearward. So, yeaaah...
Redeyes wrote:So, what do you favor on a pistol that comes from the factory with a large slide release? Use the slide release or overhand rack?
I think that deciding on a pistol based on a single feature is probably short sighted, unless of course everything else was exactly the same. At that point I'd say buy whatever fits the training you've received.
tap..."fuck Double feed!!!"... drop mag, rack, rack, rack, new mag, rack, bang

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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by crypto » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:52 pm

I'm a southpaw, so I should bring up that a slide stop doesnt do me much good on 99% of the guns on the market anyway.

For double-feeds, however, when I overhand the slide, I can pull up the slide stop with my support side fingers because my right hand fingertips are right on the slide stop anyway.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Redeyes » Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:18 pm

Murph wrote:
nolongpork wrote:I keep my movements common, to clear malfunctions I was trained by Uncle Sugar to do "tap rack bang" for malfunctions. So I reload using the same movements so I keep it common by racking the slide.
What do you do when you get a double feed then? Are you discounting the whole idea of hitting the mag release and grabbing a new mag on a reload? The way I see it is: I want one optimal way to draw, one optimal way to do a slide lock reload, one optimal way to do a slide forward reload, one optimal way to immediately handle malfunctions, one optimal way to remedially handle malfunctions, one optimal way to pull the trigger, one optimal way to holster. And will those techniques work if I'm shooting one handed? A pruned decision tree makes for fast processing. Why try to make a single technique work for multiple different circumstances?
woodsghost wrote:I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best.
I don't buy the whole "gross motor movements" line. We're talking about lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol, and not disturbing their alignment while pushing a several pound lever rearward. So, yeaaah...
Redeyes wrote:So, what do you favor on a pistol that comes from the factory with a large slide release? Use the slide release or overhand rack?
I think that deciding on a pistol based on a single feature is probably short sighted, unless of course everything else was exactly the same. At that point I'd say buy whatever fits the training you've received.
I am training someone who has a Sig 2022, no other pistol, and AFAIK no intention of buying another pistol for some time, the slide release method of reloading. I was trying to see if anyone had any overwhelming reason why I shouldn't be doing this and instead training the overhand rack method. I carry and train with Glocks so I am a little out of my comfort zone with the Sig. Ideally, he should be training with an instructor who has a firm understanding of Sigs and more time as an instructor. Since I am available and willing to train him for free, realistically, I am the best he is going to get. At least, for a good while anyway.

ETA His reasoning for buying the Sig was because it was a reliable pistol at a price point he could afford. It also came with many high quality freebies.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Murph » Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:51 am

Redeyes wrote: I am training someone who has a Sig 2022, no other pistol, and AFAIK no intention of buying another pistol for some time, the slide release method of reloading. I was trying to see if anyone had any overwhelming reason why I shouldn't be doing this and instead training the overhand rack method. I carry and train with Glocks so I am a little out of my comfort zone with the Sig. Ideally, he should be training with an instructor who has a firm understanding of Sigs and more time as an instructor. Since I am available and willing to train him for free, realistically, I am the best he is going to get. At least, for a good while anyway.

ETA His reasoning for buying the Sig was because it was a reliable pistol at a price point he could afford. It also came with many high quality freebies.
Nice! That's really cool that you're helping them out. And it gives more context to the initial questions you asked!
Does your BOB at least have: water, basic tools, fire, food, first-aid kit, and shelter?
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by woodsghost » Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:27 am

Murph wrote:
woodsghost wrote:I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best.
I don't buy the whole "gross motor movements" line. We're talking about lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol, and not disturbing their alignment while pushing a several pound lever rearward. So, yeaaah...
I understand your point.

Whenever I hear about police shootings, I hear a high ratio of rounds expended to hits on target. These are not at extreme ranges. This suggests to me there is not much "...lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol...." but rather, maybe, lining up the front sight with the target, and maybe not even that.

Turning to soldiers shooting at the enemy, how many of them "line up their sights" and how many just point their weapon and start dumping rounds? The advice I have received from guys training to clear rooms is "to just barrel fuck it and dump the mag till they drop, then move on to the next target." I"m not saying the advice I"m receiving is right. Folks can attack it or commend it as they see fit. But this suggests that within certain ranges, shooting does become a gross motor skill.

What I draw from the examples above is that when shooting at targets within 20 feet, rifles and pistols are shot using gross motor skills. Ideally, we train to be better than that. Ideally, we train till lining up the sights is unconscious. But that takes a level of training beyond what typical law enforcement and infantry receive. The OP's friend is unlikely to be receiving training beyond LEO and infantry training any time soon. At least, that is what I gather from what the OP recently said.

Now, you can train to make something an unconscious act, and in that case, fine motor movements are less of an issue. But what does it mean to train till it is an unconscious act? It means you started pulling the trigger, and putting down targets, and now you are done, and suddenly you realize there are 2-3 empty mags on the ground and you don't remember ever reloading. If you know exactly when you reloaded, it was not unconscious.

Almost anything can become unconscious with enough repetitions. However, it is much more likely we will be able to relegate aligning the sights to an unconscious act than reloading? Why? Most of us have 15-30 times more repetitions of shooting (aligning the sights and hitting targets) than we do reloading. This is where our Canadian brothers and sisters have a leg up on American shooters. Smaller mag capacities means more reloading for a given number of rounds which means more repetitions which means it will become automatic and unconscious sooner.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:18 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Turning to soldiers shooting at the enemy, how many of them "line up their sights" and how many just point their weapon and start dumping rounds? The advice I have received from guys training to clear rooms is "to just barrel fuck it and dump the mag till they drop, then move on to the next target." I"m not saying the advice I"m receiving is right.
Stop listening to the people giving you advice. They're going to get you killed, or worse yet get someone else killed.

If you don't aim, you don't hit. There are various ways to aim, no all of them are precision aiming, but it's still aiming. Your trigger pull still need to be good, not mashing the button like it's Tekken. You will still need to get thew mag in the magwell, which requires motor skills. Mag release is a wee butan too.

End of the day, you train the movement until it's mechanical. All the stuff about gross and fine movement is just talk. Train it until it's automatic, and let people who don't argue about gross or fine movement. Most importantly, figure out which ones work for you and your firearms. My thumb can't really engage a slide stop, even safeties can be a pain, hence overhand rack.

Edit: also your understanding of unconscious is different than mine. Unconscious in this context means it's a reflexive response. You brain says "PULL THE LEVER KRONK" and you muscles respond. You don't have to focus on proper squeeze or riding the reset forward, because you did it right so many times that your reflex is to do it the right way. I don't worry about locating a rifle mag, finding the mag well, making sure it's seated, finding the bolt release. I did it until when my brain says "reload" I can reach for the mag without looking, the mag goes in the magwell without fumbling, and I got the bolt release as soon as the mag is in without thinking about it. I know when I reloaded, but I didn't have to fumble for the little bits.

Good analogy, a batter or golfer taking a swing, or a race car driver shifting gears.
Last edited by Doctorr Fabulous on Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Murph » Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:47 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Murph wrote:
woodsghost wrote:I bought into the idea that gross motor movements are best.
I don't buy the whole "gross motor movements" line. We're talking about lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol, and not disturbing their alignment while pushing a several pound lever rearward. So, yeaaah...
I understand your point.

Whenever I hear about police shootings, I hear a high ratio of rounds expended to hits on target. These are not at extreme ranges. This suggests to me there is not much "...lining up millimeter measured sights sitting upon a couple pound pistol...." but rather, maybe, lining up the front sight with the target, and maybe not even that.

Turning to soldiers shooting at the enemy, how many of them "line up their sights" and how many just point their weapon and start dumping rounds? The advice I have received from guys training to clear rooms is "to just barrel fuck it and dump the mag till they drop, then move on to the next target." I"m not saying the advice I"m receiving is right. Folks can attack it or commend it as they see fit. But this suggests that within certain ranges, shooting does become a gross motor skill.

What I draw from the examples above is that when shooting at targets within 20 feet, rifles and pistols are shot using gross motor skills. Ideally, we train to be better than that. Ideally, we train till lining up the sights is unconscious. But that takes a level of training beyond what typical law enforcement and infantry receive. The OP's friend is unlikely to be receiving training beyond LEO and infantry training any time soon. At least, that is what I gather from what the OP recently said.

Now, you can train to make something an unconscious act, and in that case, fine motor movements are less of an issue. But what does it mean to train till it is an unconscious act? It means you started pulling the trigger, and putting down targets, and now you are done, and suddenly you realize there are 2-3 empty mags on the ground and you don't remember ever reloading. If you know exactly when you reloaded, it was not unconscious.

Almost anything can become unconscious with enough repetitions. However, it is much more likely we will be able to relegate aligning the sights to an unconscious act than reloading? Why? Most of us have 15-30 times more repetitions of shooting (aligning the sights and hitting targets) than we do reloading. This is where our Canadian brothers and sisters have a leg up on American shooters. Smaller mag capacities means more reloading for a given number of rounds which means more repetitions which means it will become automatic and unconscious sooner.
Just to be clear, whoever this "I", "we", "us" and "you" is in your post, I don't want any part of.
I basically agree with Doctorr Fabulous' last post. (Which is clearly a sign of the end days.)
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Sworbeyegib » Fri Sep 26, 2014 3:41 pm

Kinesthetic or "point" shooting should be something that can be practiced by many, but mastered by few. It should never be a primary method of deploying a firearm unless not given a better option.

In my opinion, point shooting is a gross motor skill. Accurate point shooting is not. It takes a much higher degree of skill and training to be able to utilize it to level of effectiveness.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Matt E. » Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:58 pm

I use the slide stop to release the slide unless the pistol doesn't have one. In that case I'll slingshot with thumb forward.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Stercutus » Fri Sep 26, 2014 5:11 pm

I also have a sig 2022. I rack it the same way as all my other pistols. It is a nice gun for the price and very reliable.
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Dave_M » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:00 pm

This isnt really a 'versus' thing as there are distinct advantages to both methods and it often comes down to differences in both individual handguns and bodies.

Gross/fine motor skills in this context don't apply, as pretty much everything you do with a gun involves fine motor skills (well, not pistol whipping or muzzle thumping :rofl: )
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by DannusMaximus » Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:21 pm

So.... What handguns have a slide release that = huge?

I've got an aftermarket slide release and extended magazine release on my G19. It doesn't make them huge, just nubs them out a bit more. I still find myself doing overhand rack when doing any kind of non admin firing.

Also, I've noticed that some pistols have so much shit sticking out the top and sides of them that doing an overhand rack is painful and akward. A buddy of mine has a Ruger P90, and with the hammer, big ass safety lever, and rear sights, it skins the shit out of my hands when I try to do an overhand rack. Might just mean I'm spoiled by my Glock-slick perfection... :mrgreen:
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Re: Slide release vs overhand rack WITH A HUGE SLIDE RELEASE

Post by Matt E. » Sun Sep 28, 2014 10:06 am

It's nice to see cooler heads prevailing on this subject as a while back it became a knife fight. I think a while back guys didn't realize how popular releasing the slide using the stop has been and that the reasons for doing so are as well grounded as the other two TTPs.
As an example, I use the stop and ALL my Glocks have the standard oem slide stop to no issue.
For reference only, and simply to showcase you're not alone no matter your TTP, I'll include a list of instructors/schools ive trained with and their preferred technique.

Sling shot
- Midsouth Institute of Combat Shooting (MIS)

Over the top
- Chris Costa
- Travis Haley *
- tactical Response

Slide Stop, Thumb Drive
- Larry Vickers
- Ken Hackathorn
- pat MacNamarra
- John McPhee (Shrek)
- Jim Smith
- Kyle Defoor
- Mike Pennone**
- very popular in some Mil orgs.

Learn all three techniques and let your brain decide which to use. Try not to let what you read or random arguments drive your decision. The size of the stop is only relevant if you think it is.

* when I first met Travis, he had a "gas pedal" on his 1911 so he could drop the slide easier. He also uses the thumb drive when shooting on his own.
** Mike P covers the subject of the ups and downs of the 3 TTPs better than anyone in regards to body mechanics and the distance at which the activity is taking place.
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