XD locked up tight as a vault

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by farrelljt » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:28 pm

I got an email this morning about this issue (and associated photo):


To: everyone
Subject: MANDATORY INSPECTION OF 45 CALIBER DUTY AMMUNITION

The Firearms Training Unit has discovered a problem with three (3) 45 caliber Duty rounds that were out of specification. This issue caused the rounds to fail to feed into the chamber of the pistol. All Department members that were issued Winchester 45 Auto 230 GR. Bonded JHP Duty ammunition by the Department in 2011 or 2012 shall immediately perform the following inspection:

In a safe location, such as a weapon safety center, field strip the weapon according to the manufacturer instruction manual and remove all rounds from all magazines. Ensure that the chamber is clean and free from obstruction. Hold the barrel with muzzle pointed downward. Drop each round into the chamber and observe if it falls freely into the chamber without assistance (see figure 1). Then invert the barrel over a soft surface and ensure the round falls freely from the chamber (it is OK to catch the round in your hand). If there is any doubt about whether the round moved freely into and out of the chamber, bring the suspect round to the Academy Range for inspection and replacement.

All officers are encouraged to visually inspect their duty cartridges for defects, regardless of caliber, every time they clean their weapon.


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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Jeriah » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:12 pm

squinty wrote:Anything I can do to keep it from happening again? (Like, replacing the XD with a Glock 21?)
Power Fail wrote:A similar, "on the range" fix I saw an instructor perform in a class when someone's Glock got jammed up good: instead of holding the grip and racking the slide (which obviously wasn't working at this point), he held the slide good and tight, reared back with his firing hand, and basically punched the tang of the grip forward with the web of his thumb. It worked.
I just wanted to point this out, because I thought it was interesting. I don't own or use either system in any caliber, have shot both and both performed well (as rental guns), but I just wanted to use this opportunity to point out that no weapons system is immune to failures, and that if your gun has never jammed, you're not shooting it enough.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by klrvagabond » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:55 am

Jeriah wrote:
squinty wrote:Anything I can do to keep it from happening again? (Like, replacing the XD with a Glock 21?)
Power Fail wrote:A similar, "on the range" fix I saw an instructor perform in a class when someone's Glock got jammed up good: instead of holding the grip and racking the slide (which obviously wasn't working at this point), he held the slide good and tight, reared back with his firing hand, and basically punched the tang of the grip forward with the web of his thumb. It worked.
I just wanted to point this out, because I thought it was interesting. I don't own or use either system in any caliber, have shot both and both performed well (as rental guns), but I just wanted to use this opportunity to point out that no weapons system is immune to failures, and that if your gun has never jammed, you're not shooting it enough.
Indeed; any system can fail, especially with faulty ammunition or magazines. Glocks have established themselves as some of the more reliable handguns, but nothing is perfect. I'm really expecting to hear considerably more failure stories with the Gen4 since they're using a better supported (read:tighter) chamber; a lot of their 'legendary' reliability has to do with their rather generous chamber specs.
(That's not a knock on Glocks; I have a couple and I'm happy with them, and they both spend most of their time with aftermarket barrels that are arguably less reliable than stock.)

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Kommander » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:17 am

ROLF at the guy who wants to chamber check every single round before they are fired. He must have allot of time on his hands.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by nimdabew » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:28 am

Kommander wrote:ROLF at the guy who wants to chamber check every single round before they are fired. He must have allot of time on his hands.
It transfers liability from the department to the officer if they don't check each individual round. Very smrt.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by squinty » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:31 pm

OK, cross posted photo from XDTalk, the XDTalk member reports having issues with some Winchester PDX1 .45 rounds fitting his chamber.

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/attachment ... g_0665.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Maverick299 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 12:53 pm

That's pretty scary when the "premium" ammo that we entrust to protect us and our family is the cause of the problem. I thought I was paying that extra money for reliablility! One more reason to always shoot your SD ammo to make sure your gun likes it, and then only use the ammo that was produced from that particular production run of ammo. If you buy another box or two, shoot a mag full out of each box to check. This thread is a great reminder of why that practice is so important.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by squinty » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:14 pm

Just sent off an e-mail reply to Springfield. They say it's either/or: either a tight chamber throat or an out of spec round. I agree. It's one of those things! They also asked if I had been able to clear the gun, and I told them I had and pointed them towards this thread and a similar one on the XDTalk site.

I haven't tried fitting any of the remaining rounds from that box into my chamber, nor have I contacted Winchester yet but I guess I'm about to.

I have confidence in both companies wrt customer service. Springfield has been decent to me in the past, and both companies understand the importance of good customer relations and etc. So no worries on that front, I just want help Nancy Drewing the stoppage. Maybe the barrel needs throated or the chamber polished, or maybe there's a bad lot of Winchester that they need to recall or send out a warning about.

I remember Old Painless of Box O' Truth fame discussing steel cased ammo one time, and he opined that steel cases sometimes didn't expand as much as brass, forming less of a snug seal to the inside of the chamber. That allowed more than usual carbon and crud to flow back into the chamber, so it got dirtier, faster, and sometimes caused a problem when he switched from steel cased back to brass cased ammo without cleaning the chamber first. He was talking about Wolff ammo and rifle chambers, not pistols, so I don't know if there's anything to that theory or not. But I did switch from steel cased bulk ammo to brass cased premium ammo in a single range session. Hadn't shot much though.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by squinty » Tue Mar 06, 2012 1:22 pm

Maverick299 wrote:That's pretty scary when the "premium" ammo that we entrust to protect us and our family is the cause of the problem. I thought I was paying that extra money for reliablility! One more reason to always shoot your SD ammo to make sure your gun likes it, and then only use the ammo that was produced from that particular production run of ammo. If you buy another box or two, shoot a mag full out of each box to check. This thread is a great reminder of why that practice is so important.
Yeah, I'd shot plenty of PDX through that pistol, thought I'd "made sure" it worked ok. Never occurred to me to test every lot number the same way, and I've never chamber checked every round in a box by dropping it in and out of the barrel.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Maverick299 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:08 pm

squinty wrote:
Maverick299 wrote:That's pretty scary when the "premium" ammo that we entrust to protect us and our family is the cause of the problem. I thought I was paying that extra money for reliablility! One more reason to always shoot your SD ammo to make sure your gun likes it, and then only use the ammo that was produced from that particular production run of ammo. If you buy another box or two, shoot a mag full out of each box to check. This thread is a great reminder of why that practice is so important.
Yeah, I'd shot plenty of PDX through that pistol, thought I'd "made sure" it worked ok. Never occurred to me to test every lot number the same way, and I've never chamber checked every round in a box by dropping it in and out of the barrel.
It never occured to me to chamber check each round, but I may do it with my SD ammo. I won't be doing it for everything, but it might be worth 5 minutes of my time to chamber size 2 mags worth of ammo that stays with the gun for peace of mind.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by squinty » Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:43 pm

Even though we've just about concluded that it's an ammunition issue, Springfield Armory very graciously suggested I ship the gun back for them to inspect, just to make sure. I'm waiting on a FedEx coupon. I actually feel a bit sheepish sending it to them, now. Maybe I made too big a deal about one stoppage. Still sending it.

I'll try sending the remaining ammo back to Winchester - Springfield isn't interested in it - and let you know what they say.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by GunTotingHippy » Tue Mar 06, 2012 5:53 pm

I EDC an XD45c and feel a lot better about this now that it's (most likely) the ammo that was the cause and not the gun.

I think I'll chamber check my carry ammo for a little added piece of mind.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by klrvagabond » Tue Mar 06, 2012 6:06 pm

I've never heard anything but good stuff about Springfield's service; I'm sure they'll have a good look at it but I still doubt it's the gun.
PDX is sort of unique (amongst 'premium' SD ammunition) in that it's now available in Wal-Marts, which means that they've probably had to ramp up production quite a bit to get some on the shelves. Given the vast amount of it they've had to crank out in a relatively short period of time I'm honestly not all that surprised to hear of a couple failures.

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by cemoulton » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:03 am

I work part time in a reloading shop here in southern N.M. we case gauge every single loaded round by hand before we box it. I would assume that major manufacturers do something similar with an animated process. Still Im sure they (large companies) have a couple sneak through from time to time with the massive quantity they produce.
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by klrvagabond » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:13 am

cemoulton wrote:I work part time in a reloading shop here in southern N.M. we case gauge every single loaded round by hand before we box it. I would assume that major manufacturers do something similar with an animated process. Still Im sure they (large companies) have a couple sneak through from time to time with the massive quantity they produce.
Yeah, I would've assumed as much and I've purchased some commercially reloaded stuff before- including BVAC's .223- without incident. I may just have a bad 1k lot from them or something. Even on new ammunition you're going to have _something_ slip through QC every now and then, but I saw considerably more 'Glock-sized' rounds than I would have expected from this lot.
Now that I think about it, I may run out and chrono a sampling of them just to see how things go. I'd pretty much decided to shelve the remaining portion (several hundred) because if they didn't use a sizing die correctly they might not necessarily be able to meter powder either...

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by GPD166 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 3:17 pm

I have the same issue with my xd 357sig. I have had it happen not once but twice! Both times have been during a rapid fire string or sesson. I used the bench method each time. Solution for me i sent the pistol off to Springfield to have them look at it. Just called them today, dont expect a call from the smith' s letting you know anything. My gun is already on its way back to me with no issues found from the inspection. I expecfed my recoil spring and guide rod assy to be replaced but nothing. Especially since there is a goug. In the end that presses aginst the barrel lug. So i ordered a new one @ $29.00 not to worried i never shoot junk and both of these incidents happened with speer lawman ammo. No mag issues follower issue and i replaced mag springs with Wolfe springs. Kind of pissed with Springfield smith's. Right now .

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by AS556 » Fri Sep 07, 2012 8:03 pm

squinty wrote:The round in question was Winchester PDX "Supreme Elite" - a good SD ammo, that I've used before with no issues.
Prior to the PDX, I had fired about 50 rounds of Tulammo crappy bulk steel cased, and then some American Eagle, Remington UMC, and Remington Golden Sabre. Never mixed ammo in any mag, there was only Winchester PDX in the gun at the time this happened. Don't remember how far down it was, it wasn't the first or second round in that magazine.

EDIT: the plot thickens...
I am on Stephen Wenger's morning mailing list (great list to be on if you are interested in guns or gun politics) and the most recent update to that list had this tidbit in it:
And A Caution: I have been forwarded an e-mail from one of the nation's largest police departments noting that its firearms training unit discovered three duty rounds – .45 ACP Winchester Bonded 230 gr. JHP – “out of specification.” The e-mail goes on to instruct that pistols should be disassembled and, with a clean chamber, each round should be checked with the barrel, ensuring that it drops fully into the firing chamber and drops back out into the hand easily. Naturally, this is a procedure that is recommend for all rounds, regardless of caliber or manufacturer, before they are loaded into magazines.
--
No link though, nor was the actual e-mail published. The stuck round was indeed a Winchester .45 ACP bonded hollowpoint. It was the PDX.
So, maybe the round was out of spec? Anyone else hear anything about a recall or bad batch of Winchester bonded .45?
Does mixing two different types of JHP in one magazine cause potential feed issues?

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by ZombieHunter556X45 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:25 am

Im sorry to hear that your XD locked up squinty.
I have shot aprox 3,000 rounds each through all three of my xdm's (9mm, 40sw, and 45acp) and now feel very fortunate that the closest thing to a malfunction that i have experienced is a slide occasionally not locking to the rear on empty mag.(thumb placement). I also have never fired steel case ammo through any of my weapons. One of my friends has a Glock 23 and was running steel case at the range once. His extractor broke and a small piece flew back a hit him square in the nose. We contacted Glock and they replaced it for $0 and he had his weapon back in just a little over a week. From that day on I vowed that if within my power that I would never fire steel case ammo. Still never have(hopefully never have to).
As far as loading alternating types of HP's in a mag, I suppose it could cause potential feeding issues but I have personally not had any issues wth it. I know many people consider RBCD ammo to be mall ninja jedi mind trick, but I have tested it over and over with slabs of beef and I have to say it is very impressive from that standpoint. I keep my mags loaded alternating Speer GoldDot and RBCD. Speer is always the first round to hit the chamber bc, I dont plan on shooting myself but I would much rather accidently shoot myself with a golddot than RBCD anyday.

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by AS556 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:40 am

ZombieHunter556X45 wrote:Im sorry to hear that your XD locked up squinty.
I have shot aprox 3,000 rounds each through all three of my xdm's (9mm, 40sw, and 45acp) and now feel very fortunate that the closest thing to a malfunction that i have experienced is a slide occasionally not locking to the rear on empty mag.(thumb placement). I also have never fired steel case ammo through any of my weapons. One of my friends has a Glock 23 and was running steel case at the range once. His extractor broke and a small piece flew back a hit him square in the nose. We contacted Glock and they replaced it for $0 and he had his weapon back in just a little over a week. From that day on I vowed that if within my power that I would never fire steel case ammo. Still never have(hopefully never have to).
As far as loading alternating types of HP's in a mag, I suppose it could cause potential feeding issues but I have personally not had any issues wth it. I know many people consider RBCD ammo to be mall ninja jedi mind trick, but I have tested it over and over with slabs of beef and I have to say it is very impressive from that standpoint. I keep my mags loaded alternating Speer GoldDot and RBCD. Speer is always the first round to hit the chamber bc, I dont plan on shooting myself but I would much rather accidently shoot myself with a golddot than RBCD anyday.
Never heard of RBCD but just googled and seems uber mall ninja.All calibers failed to penetrate even 10".What was your result with the slab of beef testing?I would highly advise just loading all Gold Dots in your weapon, shooting yourself shouldn't be of any concern just don't pull the trigger and you'll be fine.YMMV of course.

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:10 am

The spiel on the 5.56 RBCD APLP rounds makes them sound like sci-fi bullets made of an alloy of alien witchcraft... :shock:

Armor-piercing, limited-penetration: Will penetrate steel and armor, won't penetrate a warm body (effects can't be duplicated in ballistics gel as it is chilled to 36 degrees), "shatters" upon entering warm soft tissue causing untreatable wounds.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le5335.htm <--- headline is somewhat innacurrate depending on context, ie: are you .mil or not.

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:09 am

Tetra Grammaton Cleric wrote:The spiel on the 5.56 RBCD APLP rounds makes them sound like sci-fi bullets made of an alloy of alien witchcraft... :shock:

Armor-piercing, limited-penetration: Will penetrate steel and armor, won't penetrate a warm body (effects can't be duplicated in ballistics gel as it is chilled to 36 degrees), "shatters" upon entering warm soft tissue causing untreatable wounds.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... le5335.htm <--- headline is somewhat innacurrate depending on context, ie: are you .mil or not.

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Thanks for the link. Reminds me of all the other wierd bullet wounds I've seen/read about. 9mm FMJ enters victim's neck head on/perpendicular, exits ribcage anterior in the second intercostal space at an upward agle approximately 20* nonfatal. Yeah, highspeedlowdragsuperbullets are clownshoes. I'm thinking of having "penetration+expansion+placement=mortality" tattooed on my chest.

InB4 "does the guy in the link work for James Yeager?"
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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by Tetra Grammaton Cleric » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:17 am

Doc Torr wrote:InB4 "does the guy in the link work for James Yeager?"
:lol:

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Re: XD locked up tight as a vault

Post by MaconCJ7 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 11:53 am

Wow, we're actually worried about target temperature now? "Gelatin is 36*, my bullets only work on 98.6* targets".
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