Boberg Vaporware materializes.

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Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by gelgoog » Mon Oct 03, 2011 2:55 pm

So looks like the long overdue Borberg XR9 is starting to hit the market in small numbers.

Probably one of the most innovative pistol designs to come along in a while, whether its practical and reliable remains to be seen.

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both these pistols picture have the same barrel length (3.5). Shall we call this the first bullpup handgun? (negating the bushmaster arm pistol of course).

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by jamoni » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:45 pm

Looks real similar to a tube fed action, except it uses a stacked mag. Cool, I guess.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by jeremy1391 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:12 pm

Personal opinion dumb.....
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by squinty » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:33 pm

jeremy1391 wrote:Personal opinion dumb.....
How come? (Not agreeing or disagreeing, just want your "take" on why it's dumb.)
Someone in another thread expressed regret that they went for a smaller package, instead of going for more barrel length in the same size package as a typical 3.5" bbl 9mm.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by nateted4 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 6:37 pm

Cool, I ain't buying one though. It looks like the grip length is just as long as the SR9c. It's not the barrel length that makes concealing difficult, IMHO. It's the grip length. It just looks like a cool but too intricate solution to a non-problem. But hey, hope he sells a million of 'em.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by pyratemime » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:16 pm

I guess I just don't get it. What is supposed to be so innovative about this pistol?
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Chase The hero » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:13 pm

pyratemime wrote:I guess I just don't get it. What is supposed to be so innovative about this pistol?
It has the Letter X, which means that its Xtra Awesome.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by crypto » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:23 pm

pyratemime wrote:I guess I just don't get it. What is supposed to be so innovative about this pistol?
look at the feed geometry. The breech is directly over the barrel. It takes some weird shit to get the bullet backwards out of the magazine and into the breech.

Thats the innovation., that the breech block on the slide doesnt just shove a round forward off the mag and onto the feed ramp.
Last edited by crypto on Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Confucius » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:23 pm

pyratemime wrote:I guess I just don't get it. What is supposed to be so innovative about this pistol?
The feed system is pretty swanky
Image

Basically, it allows a longer barrel to fit in a smaller pistol by pulling the cartridge back and then loading it into the barrel.

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by crypto » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:27 pm

Thats the picture I was looking for. The rounds are stripped backwards out of the magazine, and lined up for chambering on the recoil stroke, not on the return to battery.

I know it sounds exotic, but big machine guns have been feeding like this for a century. Think of anything belt-fed, and you generally have to pull the round backwards out of the link and line it up for insertion into the breech on the recoil stroke.

ETA: also, as long as the round is positively controlled by the claw, it has the possibility of being even more reliable than some normal pistols where theres a small window where the round is neither in the magazine nor held in place by the extractor.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Confucius » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:33 pm

It's not actually even a new idea for pistols.
Here's a pistol from 1901 that uses a similar feed mechanism

Although they really sucked apparently, so hopefully this is a better execution of the idea.

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by gelgoog » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:43 pm

Confucius wrote:It's not actually even a new idea for pistols.
Here's a pistol from 1901 that uses a similar feed mechanism

Although they really sucked apparently, so hopefully this is a better execution of the idea.
Was that the MARS pistol?

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Confucius » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:46 pm

That's the one, funky little thing that...

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by crypto » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:47 pm

Heres a better pic.

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From: http://www.luger-genesis.com/detail_pisto.php?id=7&p=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by NonExistence » Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:39 pm

Man, that thing is hideous! The Mars, that it. Glad it was left in the 1900's, and didn't become the standard like the 1911 did.

Definitely an interesting feeding mechanism. Looks much better when everything is enclosed. My question is, will the extra barrel length make that huge a difference to benefit such a strange and complex feeding system? Provided the system works perfectly, what benefit is gained by the tiny difference in barrel length? Will it make for better velocity, accuracy ect?

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by jeremy1391 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:45 pm

I think it's dumb because why reinvent the wheel for a pocket Pistol? If it were a full size designed for military use or some such so you could get like 8" velocity out of say a 5" then I'd be on board . But getting 4" velocity out of a 3.5" barrel doesn't impress me much with an untried system.... And it looks ugly.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by gelgoog » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:55 pm

jeremy1391 wrote:I think it's dumb because why reinvent the wheel for a pocket Pistol? If it were a full size designed for military use or some such so you could get like 8" velocity out of say a 5" then I'd be on board . But getting 4" velocity out of a 3.5" barrel doesn't impress me much with an untried system.... And it looks ugly.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by AKFTW » Tue Oct 04, 2011 12:18 am

I think this design is 18 and has potential...if it proves to be reliable. In a competition gun is where it would really shine. Get a 6-7" barrel in the IPSC box? YES PLEASE :D
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Bad Penny 08 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:29 am

Hmmm.

When I first saw this I thought:
So, let me get this straight...
Before I worried about feeding and extraction/ejection.
Now I have to worry about extraction, feeding, extraction/ejection while on top of extraction?
Ack.

Then I read: "Pre-Order Price: $949" and shot coffee out of my nose.

So what do you guys think is the benefit?
The difference in nose length is slapped on the back of the slide.
Another inch in my waistband isn't going to matter, but the extra meat on the slide is going to stick up out of my holster and possibly be more likely to print or be less comfortable or convenient.
Is this a benefit to pocket carry maybe?

I'd rather have a polymer framed thinner version of a Star Firestar 9x19mm, like a single action version of a Ruger LC-9 or something.

I don't hate it, but I have to wonder.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:41 am

Confucius wrote:That's the one, funky little thing that...
Well that's so fugly it's a safe bet that poor thing was never asked to the prom.

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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by mr. right-wing » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:41 am

Dissenters be damned, I want one!
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Dr Jekell » Tue Oct 04, 2011 5:17 am

My first thought upon seeing the pic in the OP was: "It looks like a .22 pistol for kids"
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by Electricity » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:05 am

crypto wrote:Heres a better pic.

Image

From: http://www.luger-genesis.com/detail_pisto.php?id=7&p=3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

FTFY


Edit: Also, the back end of it looks like an autococker paintball gun.
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Re: Boberg Vaporware materializes.

Post by crypto » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:08 am

Bad Penny 08 wrote:Hmmm.

When I first saw this I thought:
So, let me get this straight...
Before I worried about feeding and extraction/ejection.
Now I have to worry about extraction, feeding, extraction/ejection while on top of extraction?
Ack.

Then I read: "Pre-Order Price: $949" and shot coffee out of my nose.

So what do you guys think is the benefit?
The difference in nose length is slapped on the back of the slide.
Another inch in my waistband isn't going to matter, but the extra meat on the slide is going to stick up out of my holster and possibly be more likely to print or be less comfortable or convenient.
Is this a benefit to pocket carry maybe?

I'd rather have a polymer framed thinner version of a Star Firestar 9x19mm, like a single action version of a Ruger LC-9 or something.

I don't hate it, but I have to wonder.
As long as the claw pulls the rounds out reliably, I'm not too concerned about it. As I mentioned in the previous post, machine guns have been doing something like this for a century. Check this out:



See whats going on there? Same thing, the round is controlled through its entire path through the weapon. Compare to most pistols, which strip the round off the magazine as the slide is returning to battery:



There is a risk, inherent in all designs like this, in the few millimeters that the round is not yet in the breech, but is also not under the extractor claw that something will go wrong and the round will not chamber properly. It's more or less just held in place by the tension between the friction of the bullet on the feed ramp, and the breech block, until the case head slides up under the extractor. It takes a lot of finesse to balance those forces so that the fresh cartridge inserts correctly every time, in all conditions, and in all positions.

This risk is the source of many feed malfunctions, from 1911's chronic inability to digest flat-tipped rounds to Hi-Points that will jam when held upside down, and is the reason why most dangerous game rifles have Controlled Round Feed, so that the cartridge is positively held in place by the extractor before coming loose from the magazine.

I personally think its a great idea in concept, and I like that the breech is able to be moved back to gain the extra barrel length. I don't yet know if I like this execution of the concept, only time will tell if this implementation is robust and reliable.
So what do you guys think is the benefit?
The immediate benefit is compact gun performance in a pocket gun profile. Most pocket guns have lackluster ballistic performance because the barrels are so short.
Last edited by crypto on Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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