Malfunction?... Or limp wrist???

[maldon007]

So me and my pops went to spray some .40 around the range today, and see it the trigger job on the S&W Sigma helped any. Trigger seemed fine, always reset... But pops had at least 4 - 5 misfeeds.

After the second misfeed, I emptied the mag & checked the lips against the other one, nothing obvious. So I switched the ammo to the other mag for the hell of it & tried again. I shot maybe 5 and no problems, dad hops in, BANG slide stays back, stuck again on the back of a cartridge... The front of said cartridge is somewhat nose-dived into the mag (all the misfeeds were like this).

This time I checked each cartridge, the slide, and everything else I thoght might slow or impede the action. After I tied again & it shot fine, he tried again & stuck the slide, first shot. Then I remembered he seemed to be letting it kick a lot... At least more than I felt like I was, so I said hold it as tight as you can...

We only had maybe 40 rounds left at that point, but no more misfeeds... I know the behavior sounds like limp wristing... But does the actual jam? Rim of shell against lower part of the breech face, bullet nose pushing down into the mag, maybe 30* down angle... Slide NOT caught on slide stop... No other obvious problems.

Should I be looking at any other issues? Or was the limp wrist probably to blame?

[Wildeman_13]

Does the S&W have a grip safety? I discovered that with my XD .40 and the grip safety if the shooter isn't firm enough it will actually prevent either the slide from fully going back or cause it to lock back even with rounds still in the mag. Even without the grip safety, if these are lighter loads, 135gr-150gr or something, then a limp wrist will cause this. I find that 180grs almost never have a problem with limp wrist and 165gr seems OK too. At least in my XD .40.

[maldon007]

No safety, complete glock rip-off... So light load = more likely limpwrist? Good to know, probably just need to get pops a 9mm I guess

[PistolPete]

It could be limp wrist, or it could be grip, or something else. If he has either of his thumbs high up that could slow down the slide. Or maybe his hands are lower, make sure he's got his hands high up on the grip. But if it works fine for you and not for him it's likely user error. Maybe suggest a different grip or stance.

I work with new shooters a lot, and frequently they experience problems with self-loading pistols that experienced shooters do not. They can be tricky to pin down sometimes.

[Regular Guy]

It's malfunctioning because it's a Sigma. It's not you, it's the gun.

[maldon007]

It's malfunctioning because it's a Sigma. It's not you, it's the gun.

Why is that

[Regular Guy]

It's malfunctioning because it's a Sigma. It's not you, it's the gun.

Why is that

I used to work at a range. Folks would buy Sigma 40S&W pistols. They loved them, then they went to range, they would come back in pissed that the gun malf'ed a lot. We'd tell them no refunds on guns, then they'd want to sell the gun back. The boss would never, ever take them back.

The Sigma is a poorly made copy of a glock. Sorry, it's the troof. Sell it and get a Sig 2022 in 9mm. $350 at PSA right now. Best affordable gun ever.

[RickOShea]

It's malfunctioning because it's a Sigma. It's not you, it's the gun.

A buddy of mine bought a 9mm Sigma a few years ago (I did my damnedest to get him into a Glock, but he's a cheap bastard). The only other handguns he'd ever owned before that were little, cheap .25s and .380s.

Anyway, same thing happened the first time we took it to the range to break it in. He'd shoot it and get malfs, I'd shoot it and have no malfs.

I finally just told him to "bow up on it if you're any kind of man" and he ceased having the malfunctions.

*I showed him DavePal's review of the Sigma and his response was, "Maybe I should have gotten a Glock".

[maldon007]

Looks pretty well made to me... And may people do find it very reliable (though yeah, some don't)... So I guess my real question is, if it is not a limp wrist issue, what else would/could it be?

As for selling it & buying a glock, not likely any time soon, for money reasons. Also, I am generally a fix-it-if-I-can type guy, generally never sell gear that works, or can be made to work.

If this gun is a lemon, and can never be reliable, then I will start saving... But it HAS been 100% reliable for me (so far maybe 150 rounds by me, another 100 by others w/out issue, not counting pops)... Now pops, he is 71yo... but no wimp... BUT he was trying to shoot from rest, with no seat, in an awkward position when these malf's happeneded... I think (not 100% sure) he fired it without issue when standing, arms out stretched.

Maybe the thing to do is, I will try to limp wrist it & see if the same malf happens... If that turns out to be the case, and I can run a bunch more ammo through w/out issue, after that, I will be happy with the thing. If more problems happen & no solutions... Then I will see about trading up.

[RickOShea]

Here's the link to Dave's Sigma test:

http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=107&t=28807&hilit=sigma

For some reason, the "guerrilla gunsmith" link that has the full review ain't working........







.......but who wouldn't trust this face....huh?

[Big B]

I may have missed this, but is the gun malfunctioning when you shoot it or only your father?

If it's only with your dad shooting it then It's pretty obvious to me that it's not the gun. Plus based on this-

BUT he was trying to shoot from rest, with no seat, in an awkward position when these malf's happeneded... I think (not 100% sure) he fired it without issue when standing, arms out stretched.

I would say it has to do with his mess up shooting position. It sounds to me he needs to lock out his arms otherwise he will keep having malfunctions. The gun relies on the recoil of the last round fired for the slide to cycle properly. If he is bending his arms they will absorb the recoil and the slide will not cycle properly. I hope this makes sense.

Take the gun to the range and shoot it yourself. Do not try to replicate your fathers shooting position. Shoot it as you should, in a good stance and grip, to make sure it's not the gun's fault.

[ashwednesday]

It's malfunctioning because it's a Sigma. It's not you, it's the gun.

I will probably disagree here. There are definitely issues with S&W and the trigger on that gun but the Sigma is a pretty simple machine, the OP's posting suggests that limp wristing is the issue.

[ashwednesday]

P.s. trigger jobs to lighten the trigger on Sigmas have been known to result in light primer strikes. Watch for that too.

[maldon007]

I haven't changed the striker spring, so no issue there... And it has always fired, when there is a round in the pipe... Round just didn't get there, when it malfed.

Still haven't had a chance to shoot again, will update when I do.

[Tommy Tran]

How many rounds through the gun in its lifetime?
Weakness of ANY magazine fed weapon is the magazine and it seems like 90% of the time its the spring.
You may need new mag springs since the feed lips dont show any issues.

Wolff springs are the best!

[maldon007]

Not sure, but would estimate under 1000 rounds, divided up fairly even between the two mags... Both springs are very strong... but that is my uneducated opinion... Also, the malf happened with both mags, for my dad... I recently bought another mag though & will number them so I can be sure.

Still no more shooting to test though

[Tommy Tran]

I would like to know how the new mag works out when you get the chance to shoot it. I have seen some mag springs take a set and start nose-diving rounds like you described pretty quickly. I usually change mags springs out every 5K rounds(I have a bunch of mags that I rotate through). They generally have the longest cycle/ stroke and most often second to the recoil spring(which I also change every 5k)

[TylerH67]

I came here expecting something totally different...

[AwPhuch]

If pistol goes bang repeatedly with one user, but goes bang click with another...its NOT the machines fault!

I would bet the sigma probably has a pretty strong recoil spring...

[cmxterra]

Having Glocks I know that if you limp wrist just a little it will ftf.

Limp wrist is my vote.

[Kutter_0311]

I'm leaning toward "limp wrist" because

A) when you shoot it, no malf

B) when your dad shot normally, no malf

C) when your dad shot it in a compromised position, and you observed physical symptoms of heavier recoil, MALF

If I have any of this wrong, correct me.

The weapon requires a certain amount of the "right" inertia to cycle propperly. Limp wristing it allows the "right" inertia to turn into the "wrong" inertia, and defeats the propper function of the machine.

[maldon007]

I came here expecting something totally different...

Nyuk nyuk nyuk



Have only fired about 100 rounds since the "incident" and no malfs at all... Not enough, obviously, to say for sure, but yeah I am trending toward limp wrist... Thinking back on how the jam looked, it seems like a problem of- Slide going back, but not quite far enough to let a round come all the way into the reciever, so it catches the very edge of the round, and instead of stripping it off, it subs the nose down into the mag... But no testing on that theory yet

But again, so far since then, no issues, 100 rdns, shooting un aided/move/shoot/a few one handed. Also, I haven't tried to repeat the strange stance my dad was doing... probably should.

It was like, elbows on table, hands in prayer, but instead of clapped together, holding a gun (lucky it didn't jam him in the grill too!)

[Kutter_0311]

It was like, elbows on table, hands in prayer, but instead of clapped together, holding a gun (lucky it didn't jam him in the grill too!)

Yeah, that's the problem right there. Don't do that.

[Jeriah]

It was like, elbows on table, hands in prayer, but instead of clapped together, holding a gun (lucky it didn't jam him in the grill too!)

Yeah, that's the problem right there. Don't do that.

Yeah, and what's more, doing some bass-ackwards shit like that might be masking a REAL malfunction. Maybe your weapon would be malfunctioning every 200 rounds or so, because it's a Sigma and they do that (hypothetically, I don't actually know this), but because a wonky shooting style is causing another malfunction, they all get blamed on that.

It's like having a senile grandparent who writes on the walls in poop. The one time your two year old writes on the walls in poop, you blame the grandparent, and your kid never learns not to write on the walls in poop. So do yourself a favor and put grandma in a home. (By which I mean, correct your father's shooting technique.)