Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

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Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by jor-el » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:03 am

Guy I know insists I dump my S+W 5946 with normal capacity mags and Gold Dot +P 124HPs in favor of a Colt 1991 and FMJs, unknown brand. Claims this choice is refined from taking classes with legendary firearms people such as Mas Ayoob and Chuck Taylor.

Just for a moment I'll ignore the benefits of LEOSA, 20 years of training and practice with my Smiths, partial access to department gunsmiths, knowledge base and ammo supply, as well as 30 years of general firearms experience into the teen years of the 21st century .

In the current day and age, is the basic 1911A1 format with only full metal jacket rounds the best choice for defensive carry for a new shooter?

My opinion? This guy is my age, but retired from NYSP about 10 years ago. May have influenced their move to .45 GAP. Doesn't carry a .45 GAP?
Maybe there's something I forgot, but why does nearly every LEO agency us Hollow point rounds in their service weapons?
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by Stercutus » Sun Mar 13, 2016 11:24 am

Just a few points...

Alrighty, the older 1911s tended to not feed anything but FMJ reliably. They were designed for this so it makes sense.

.45ACP FMJ in the Walmart Target load is a poor fight stopper.

Given the onerous laws in NY means having fewer bullets. Intuitively this means a bigger bullet is better. Truthfully though you would do better to look at loads that are reliable stoppers and not worry so much about bullet size in the day of modern ammunition.

Size only matters so long as it is not too small to do the job or too big to function properly and recover well. Or so the wife tells me.

A 1911 is a huge, heavy, honking gun to carry every day. Not a great choice for defensive regardless of everything else.

I could go on but I think you get the idea.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by minengr » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:37 pm

As a fan of the 1911, if I had years of training with another platform, I wouldn't switch to go with a stock 1911 shooting FMJ's. Now if you're willing to pony up the cash for a full custom or high end offering from Wilson or similar that's a different story.

While I know a fair bit about 1911's in general, what little I've heard about 1991's hasn't been good. As best I can remember (and I could be wrong) that was a "budget" offering from Colt at the time. Personally, I wouldn't purchase one.

Discussing 1911's as defensive or carry guns is a deep rabbit hole with wildly varying opinions.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by raptor » Wed Mar 16, 2016 10:13 pm

I used a 1911 and 1911 series 70 Gold Cup as my CCW for many years. My Gold cup could reliably feed JHP, wadcutters and even empty cases (if hand cycled).

It is large, heavy and "low" capacity but it was reassuring when things went bump in the night.

I would not trade my Glock 30SF, Sig 290RS or S&W model 638 for my 1911 for CCW purposes. I like 1911s but for for CCW purposes IMO there are more convenient packages.

However that is my opinion and preference, I am not saying it is a fact and YMMV.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by roscoe » Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:53 am

Is this a real question? I am not sure what the perceived advantage is. The caliber? The trigger? The fact that Humphrey Bogart carried one in about half his movies?

if you are going to go with a bulkier, heavier, lower-capacity handgun in an antiquated design, just go straight to a Howda pistol, like James Caan in Rio Bravo:

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:04 am

I truly love the .45 round and the 1911 design. Have carried a Canadian Para-Ord P14-45 nearly every day since 2000, and now I'm finally gonna change it up with a polymer 9mm. I originally went with the Para because of capacity, but now that is a little less important to me.

Basically, I am sick of carrying a 3 pound metal brick on my hip.

I vote that you carry what feels right and works for YOU, no one else. As for my ammo loadout the first ten rounds in my mag are 230gr Federal HST, the rest is ball for possible barrier penetration like windshields or car doors.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by Stercutus » Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:47 am

Howda pistol
Also illegal in NY
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by Dabster » Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:01 pm

The answer to this question seems so obvious I feel like I'm going to look stupid if I respond. Bus as long as my moron credentials are in good standing...

I have seen a couple of articles saying that the shift back to 9mm may be premature because larger bullets are better when shooting through barriers. I am also fond of shooting the .45 ACP cartridge -I find .45 to be more reliable, controllable and accurate. Most of my pistols are .45 ACP.

Having said that, I think it would be a less than optimal choice for you to switch at this point. The articles I mentioned above but said that experience will trump caliber and if you have good experience with your 9mm -you have a great pistol and there is probably no reason to change.

Then again... It's always fun to buy another gun...
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by jor-el » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:16 pm

If I had my druthers, I think I would go with a .45 I already own and probably with 230gr Gold Dots;
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My 5946 serves just fine when I think of it as the backup to this, and not the primary weapon.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by Holger Danske » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:25 am

Nice jor-el. If I could edc 2 cops I wouldn't even bother with a back up pistol ! :lol:

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by jor-el » Sat Mar 19, 2016 7:46 pm

Holger Danske wrote:Nice jor-el. If I could edc 2 cops I wouldn't even bother with a back up pistol ! :lol:
You do realize I was the cop on the left, the cop on the right is a prominent arfcom member who shall remain wet?

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by minengr » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:21 pm

This is what you need

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthread ... st11055129

As I mentioned there, Bob built my 38 Super. He now works for Ruger and previously worked for Rock River and Springfield Armory.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by Stercutus » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:12 pm

I think I would go with a .45 I already own and probably with 230gr Gold Dots
The XD would be a much better choice, better than the 5946 as well.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by 400 Grains » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:07 pm

.45 ball was a terrible fight stopper, despite what we were all told all those years ago. Blows right through disrupting little tissue, and glances off bones that a HP or SWC would catch into. Even Cooper preferred a SWC or flat nose fmj over ball. (Not that wound ballistics was the Colonel's strong point).

I would take your 5946 with Gold Dots over .45 ball any day of the week.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by 400 Grains » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:11 pm

URBAN ASSAULT wrote: I vote that you carry what feels right and works for YOU, no one else. As for my ammo loadout the first ten rounds in my mag are 230gr Federal HST, the rest is ball for possible barrier penetration like windshields or car doors.

-urban
Your HST will likely do better on window glass or car doors than FMJ, which tends to deflect and veer off course. Certainly a bonded bullet like a Gold Dot will.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Sun Apr 03, 2016 12:09 am

400 Grains wrote:
URBAN ASSAULT wrote: I vote that you carry what feels right and works for YOU, no one else. As for my ammo loadout the first ten rounds in my mag are 230gr Federal HST, the rest is ball for possible barrier penetration like windshields or car doors.

-urban
Your HST will likely do better on window glass or car doors than FMJ, which tends to deflect and veer off course. Certainly a bonded bullet like a Gold Dot will.
Thank you for the insight, sounds like I need to do more reading.

BTW, while trying to type this I am fondling a brand new M&P 9c that just "happened" to follow me home from the gun show, I can't seem to put this little black beauty down for too long.

:lol:

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by B9ev » Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:12 am

I carry a 1911 daily with 230 grain doubletap jhp ammo. I love 1911s and I have a lot of other options to choose from.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by jor-el » Sun Apr 03, 2016 9:36 pm

B9ev wrote:I carry a 1911 daily with 230 grain doubletap jhp ammo. I love 1911s and I have a lot of other options to choose from.
Oh no you don't. The load was clearly specified as BALL. Not Zombie Max or Remington JHPs with a ball shape profile, not plated thin with the possibility of soft lead deformation, but gilding metal cup FMJ BALL.
His quote, "doesn't expand, doesn't need to".

I'm not going to get enough sleep to want to debate that.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by flybynight » Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:03 pm

jor-el wrote:
Holger Danske wrote:Nice jor-el. If I could edc 2 cops I wouldn't even bother with a back up pistol ! :lol:
You do realize I was the cop on the left, the cop on the right is a prominent arfcom member who shall remain wet?

That's the front of the Westin Hotel, Times Square on New Years Eve, 2006.

May, 2007 Fleet Week. West Side Piers. I'm on the right.
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Well all I can add to this conversation is my extreme disappointment that you don't resemble your avatar . EXTREMELY
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by jor-el » Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:33 am

I'm sorry, you got cut off there. Please finish your thought.

I've used the likenesses of Marlon Brando, Julian Sands as well as Russell Crowe.
How could I look like any or all of them? Besides, secret identity how does it work?
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by flybynight » Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:11 am

jor-el wrote:I'm sorry, you got cut off there. Please finish your thought.

I've used the likenesses of Marlon Brando, Julian Sands as well as Russell Crowe.
How could I look like any or all of them? Besides, secret identity how does it work?
Finish my thought? I can't even remember that night.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by B9ev » Wed Apr 06, 2016 1:55 pm

You are correct that ball ammo isn't as good in many situations. Btw, do you still work for nypd?
jor-el wrote:
B9ev wrote:I carry a 1911 daily with 230 grain doubletap jhp ammo. I love 1911s and I have a lot of other options to choose from.
Oh no you don't. The load was clearly specified as BALL. Not Zombie Max or Remington JHPs with a ball shape profile, not plated thin with the possibility of soft lead deformation, but gilding metal cup FMJ BALL.
His quote, "doesn't expand, doesn't need to".

I'm not going to get enough sleep to want to debate that.

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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by MacWa77ace » Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:57 pm

jor-el wrote:
In the current day and age, is the basic 1911A1 format with only full metal jacket rounds the best choice for defensive carry for a new shooter?
If I boiled your OP down to just this question as stated, I can see where you're friend is coming from. But only insofar as I agree that the combination of a heavy, full sized SA with a long slide is easier to get a sight picture, easier to control, and easier to charge than compacts or lightweight SA's and revolvers - for a new shooter.

And as for ammo choice/caliber, no comment other than a standard ball is easier to control than something in the + range of PD ammo - for the new shooter. So I can see the logic in the 1911/91 + FMJ = a good starter setup. Maybe that is what your friend was getting at.

But for an experienced shooter the sky is the limit. Carry your fav.
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Re: Colt Series 80 AND FMJ? I can't, I just cant

Post by BadLands_Shooter » Wed Apr 06, 2016 4:59 pm

My carry gun is a 4 inch barrel S&W Model 10 (I'm not an LEO btw). I'd rather carry a G-19 than a 1911 though.
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