Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

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Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by jor-el » Tue Oct 13, 2015 1:30 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guB4I8E ... e=youtu.be

This also shows how a legally concealed carry pistol can stop or deter a mass attack
I'm going to take a wild guess of a 9mm service pistol.
I could be wrong, but due to the Tango acting like a bullet sponge, I would also guess FMJ or bad shot placement. Also, after the first time the Tango got up after being shot and hit, I would have done failure drill and assumed drugs or body armor.

Another angle: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=78f_1444731910
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by raptor » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:41 pm

These stories gives a few more details and context

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-34513753
Minutes later, a man ran over three people with his car at a bus station in the Geula district of West Jerusalem. He then got out of the car and attacked them with a meat cleaver. The attacker was shot by a security guard and seriously wounded.
http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Confl ... hem-423831
A Palestinian terrorist drove his vehicle into a group of several people waiting at a bus stop. He then exited his car with a meat cleaver and began attacking the wounded and others with the implement.

Rabbi Yeshayahu Krishevsky, 60, was killed, apparently both from the vehicular attack and the axe wounds while two other people were seriously injured.
The object in the attacker's hand was a meat cleaver.


This link shows a close up of the attacker on the ground and the shooter with a firearm.
(caution bloody scene at the top of the page)

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breakin ... 015/10/13/
The terrorist, a technician with the Bezeq telephone service company, was shot and killed by security forces.
One final comment ... kinetic energy is a bitch. People talk about muzzle energy but there are not many hand held weapons that equal the impact energy of a 5,000 lb car going 40 mph at impact.
Last edited by raptor on Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by woodsghost » Tue Oct 13, 2015 4:55 pm

That is close enough to what happens when I shoot critters. They either go into some death throws, or run 100 yards to a mile, lay down, and die some time later.

I figure shooting a 20 lb critter with a 115 grain projectile is about like shooting a 140 lb human with a 805 gr projectile, so I really don't expect a lot should I ever have to shoot a human in self-defense with a 115 gr round. I will expect more noticeable results if I have to shoot a human with a 805 gr round.

I really hope people don't expect their pistols to do too much to an attacker, physiologically. Psychological incapacitation is a different matter. I have just been struck though by how many accounts of self-defense detail the attacker surviving and able to do a considerable amount of exertion before either passing out or dying.

Also, the statistics I saw are 80% of those shot with pistols survive, and almost all who are still alive when EMS arrive manage to survive.

Pistols are only "an answer," not "a good answer." A good answer is "a rifle or shotgun." But nothing is "100% gonna work."
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by jor-el » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:30 pm



Let's see if this works. There we go.

Think the guard showed too much restraint; stopped shooting without confirming the perp was incapacitated or not and stayed too close to him. Almost got nailed with the meat cleaver. With the penchant for suicide vests or other "spoiler" weapons that could still be in the car I would not have let the perp try to get back in the car.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by velojym » Tue Oct 13, 2015 9:39 pm

I'd agree that psychology has a lot to do with it. As most encounters with *legally* armed folks end without a shot being fired, it would stand to reason that a relatively high percentage of ones that do get that far will leave the attacker on the wrong side of 'fight or flight', and heightening the need for the intended victim to ramp up his or her means to stop the jerk.
... or... a pistol is really supposed to be there to get you to your rifle. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by TheLastOne » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:14 pm

shoot. them. in. the. head.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by norcalprep » Wed Oct 14, 2015 6:36 pm

HOLY WHAT IN THE HELL? After reading the commentary before seeing the video, I understood that the attacker would survive many hits. I did NOT EXPECT HIM TO STAND BACK UP. ZOMBIE!!!!

(also, I think I might need an under-bed rifle safe now to keep something bigger close at hand.)

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by Paladin1 » Wed Oct 14, 2015 8:03 pm

That's why I carry a high capacity weapon loaded with premium ammo and intend to shoot until they stop moving.
WWSD?

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by jor-el » Wed Oct 14, 2015 9:05 pm

If my sources are correct, NYPD's new Strategic Response Group is arming up with the semi-auto version of the M4; the Colt 6944.

I suspect they wanted no additional full auto weapons on city streets, but wanted the illusion of the same.

Eh; at least it's a rifle. Believe this is the duty ammo: Fed TRU 55gr BTHP

http://www.policehq.com/Products/FC-223TRU

Beats handing out those museum mini-14s.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by drop bear » Thu Oct 15, 2015 1:40 pm

Or if you have stopped shooting don't stand over the guy. Find cover. At the very least he then has to run around something to get you.

Like when a fire cracker dosent go off. You don't get up and check it.

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by From0toHero » Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:46 am

With a handgun shoot placmend is critical. Guess if he would have shoot him in the chest two times (double tap) or a shoot in the head the attacker would not have stood up again. It seems all shoots missed vital areas, its the only explanation he managed to stand up so many times. Or as somebody else mentioned he was using FMJ ammo. But even with FMJ ammo well placed shoots would have stoped him more quickly.

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 19, 2015 8:51 am

Does anyone here shoot against anotomically correct targets? (Anatomically correct for the internal features)

I'm not allowed to where I shoot, but I have seen the targets themselves.

The critical zones are actually relatively small, critical meaning some form of immediate incapacitation. If you dont hit one of these zones then you are relying on blood loss or psychological factors. Add adrenaline and neither of these effects is going to be quick.

for reference https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill some people have found that 2 to the chest just isnt effective enough.

Interesting discourse I was reading recently was of a review of inexperienced vs police vs expert.
It showed that of these 3 categories, police had the lowest rate of head shots, opting for the body shots more often. And with inexperienced and expert showing around the same number of headshots.

It was speculated that this was a training cause. Police are trained for body shots, experts for a mix of head and body. But the inexperienced were just shooting where they were looking. As in, when you look at someone you generally look at their eyes, hence where the bullets were ending up.

(Hit ratio increased as you would expect)

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by NamelessStain » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:32 pm

jor-el wrote:If my sources are correct, NYPD's new Strategic Response Group is arming up with the semi-auto version of the M4; the Colt 6944.
So the same as a 6940 except a 14.5" barrel instead of a 16"?
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by jor-el » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:55 pm

NamelessStain wrote:
jor-el wrote:If my sources are correct, NYPD's new Strategic Response Group is arming up with the semi-auto version of the M4; the Colt 6944.
So the same as a 6940 except a 14.5" barrel instead of a 16"?
Pretty much.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by ashwednesday » Tue Oct 27, 2015 2:13 pm

TheLastOne wrote:shoot. them. in. the. head.
Or the pelvis, then the head.

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by Stercutus » Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:41 pm

I could be wrong, but due to the Tango acting like a bullet sponge, I would also guess FMJ or bad shot placement. Also, after the first time the Tango got up after being shot and hit, I would have done failure drill and assumed drugs or body armor.
SOP for terror groups that recruit suicide attackers is to get them drunk/ drugged up before the attack. This makes them more malleable and likely to go through with it.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:44 pm

Rule #2: Double tap.

Handguns suck. Pure and simple. They are a sidearm. They are more designed to be easy to carry than they are to stop things with one shot. And unless you hit the heart or central nervous system, they aren't going down quickly. They may be fatally wounded, but it will still take a while for them to be incapacitated. It is always amazing how much damage a body can take and still keep functioning. In this case, even though he was down, the fact that he was still attacking would have warranted shooting him again to end the threat. Remember, you aren't trying to wound somebody. Or kill them. You are trying to stop a threat. If that means you have to Wile E. Coyote on their ass and drop a piano on them, then light them on fire, then that is what you need to do. As long as they are a threat, you keep doing what you need to do to put them down.

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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by sheddi » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:11 pm

Unrelated to firearms (sorry folks), jor-el's YouTube video shows another fascinating aspect of human stress behaviour; the compulsion for the unarmed onlookers to go and beat/kick the gunman once he was (thought to be) down. I'm no psychologist but I've seen it in other similar videos and it seems to be something fundamental about how humans are wired internally; the need to assert your victory over the threat.

In cases like this, of course, it's the last thing you want to do as it puts you within easy striking range of a not-quite-incapacitated assailant. Better to stay back and let the guy with the boomstick deal with it.
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Re: Why Handguns Suck: Terror attack in Israel

Post by LowKey » Tue Nov 17, 2015 6:19 pm

sheddi wrote:Unrelated to firearms (sorry folks), jor-el's YouTube video shows another fascinating aspect of human stress behaviour; the compulsion for the unarmed onlookers to go and beat/kick the gunman once he was (thought to be) down. I'm no psychologist but I've seen it in other similar videos and it seems to be something fundamental about how humans are wired internally; the need to assert your victory over the threat..
There is a video out there(off a drone) , of some Iraqi kids doing the same to the bodies of friends of mine and co-workers after they were shot in the back of the head by insurgents. I promise you my friends weren't "threats" to anyone (unarmed, just passing through), but I will agree the basic premise still holds. The crowd will move in and act out on the bodies of the "outsiders".
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