First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Handgun, Pistol and Revolver topics

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by woodsghost » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:20 am

jor-el wrote:Lara was originally resistant to being trained, believing my powers could always protect her.
Standard superhero trope is to attack a family member when the hero is distracted or otherwise engaged.
When I lived on the Brooklyn/Queens border, Lara was mugged twenty minutes before I got home. We both had day jobs in different parts of The city and this is prior to Cir-Ex's arrival. She caught black eyes and lost teeth.
Lara is far more aggressive about training and practice in weapon arts these days, enough she was the one to insist Cir-El be trained at an early age (within NYS limitations) so that she would be better prepared for such a crisis.
Sadly, it often takes a personal experience to get people to change. Personal experience is why I am on here, but my experiences happened as a child.
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dabster » Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:39 pm

doc66 wrote:This is what I would tell someone in the States.

Don't buy a fucking H&K.

They hate you, they don't care if you buy their product because they hate you.

Before you buy it check the aftermarket for accessories, holsters, the price of the magazines, if it does break can you get H&K to fix it? (No, because it's your fault and they hate you.)

That's what I'd say to someone in the States.

Since you already bought it, well, there you go.

The 9mm is best defensive choice in calibers out there. It does everything any other defensive round will do and sometimes better, depending on the round and the ammo you use. Use good, quality ammo, from a reputable manufacturer and you should be fine.

All the other things were said by woodsghost.

If you're asking if you should have bought a rifle, the answer is always, yes.

Have fun with the HK, they are dependable firearms and you should good to go with it.
Despite these cruel, hateful and maybe a teenie-tiny bit envious words... I think you did fine. I own two HKs and think they are among the finest pistols made. If good defensive ammunition is not available in your country, watch and lobby for legal changes. 9MM is affordable and fun to shoot.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by doc66 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:49 pm

No envy, man, I saw an entire department deal with issues relating to H&K's refusal to address problems with the USP. H&K won't do a thing for you, they made their name on the HK MP5 here in the states and think that will ride them into eternity. For a long time, everyone had problems with HK's failure to stand by their product; it was always the user's fault.

But he bought what he bought.
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by The_bangfrog_MK23 » Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:08 pm

From0toHero wrote: Yes ALL deforming bullets are illegal. But by surprise i went true old equipment i hade and found a old box of federal hydra shock ammo. This will be my premium choice if shtf. The problem for each handgun or rifle you need to get a so called Waffenerwerbschein. Every swiss citizen with a clean history can obtain this legal document. The problem is, before, this legal paper made it possible to buy 3 firearms including rifle and handgun. But meanwhile each firearm needs a individual form. And ontop of that its expensive. But my main reason for only having one firearm is my wife. She freaked out when she saw i was planning on buying a gun. The media portrait us as children eating maniacs. So i hade to promise her only buying one handgun. And she even wanted me to buy max. a 22.cal handgun. But i went with a 9mm.
Before the HK P30 i hade a small weapon collection but after we got our first baby she made me sell everything. I hade a Steyr AUG A1, COLT Carabine in 223.Rem, Benelli M3 PumpGun\half auto, Mossberg 590 short pump gun, Berreta Pump Gun, Glock 17C, USP 45,Walther PPK and masses of ammo. I hade many month nightmares and missed them like crazy. It was like i have lost a family member. Call me crazy :)
First of, welcome, fellow Swiss member. Have a good time and best wishes from the greater Zürich area.

Secondly, I don't know who told you this, but I very regularily buy three Firearms or parts thereof with one WES. This might be up to negotiation with your "Ausstellende Behörde" but it is still very possible to get a 3for1. In fact, I just did it about two weeks ago.

Thirdly, you're doing fine with your choice. Several Agencies (Kantonspolizei ZH & Grenzwache that I know of, possibly more) recently upgraded to the HK P30 around here and except for the horrible LEO trigger in combination with unflexible mindsets, it seems to be a good choice. In fact, I own a P30L with a Sa/Da trigger and am very happy with it.

Furthermore, deforming ammo is only unlawful for "Faustfeuerwaffen", you can buy deforming rifle ammo for hunting applications just fine, even in .223 which is not a common hunting caliber in Switzerland.

Should you have any specific questions, please PM me, I'll be happy to help.
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dioxin » Wed Oct 14, 2015 10:52 am

I'll chime in with my experience of Switzerland, and gun weary spouses :-P

I'm a foreigner to Switzerland, so I have a different rule set.
for reference 1CHF ~ $1

In order to get your WES (Firearm permit to purchase, 50CHF) you need a Criminal Record extract (20 CHF)

You must register on the permit the weapon type you wish to purchase, send it off to the local Police Firearms officer, and he sends it to the Federal Bureau in Bern.

It comes back 1-2 weeks later.

Each WES "could" permit purchase of 3 weapons, but they would have to be from the same shop.

When I first applied, I send 3 WES forms, 1 Extract and played the waiting game. 20CHF spent.
the following week I received an email saying I needed to go to the police station, 150CHF later I've got 3 permits to purchase WOOT!

Regards Pistol vs Rifle:
Its not legal to carry either unless you are en-route to the range or going home from the range.
Carrying in a backpack is generally illegal. (exception include while hunting or by having a Carry Permit)

Carry Permits are like hens teeth, a rarity. You need justification of risk to life or occupational need.

Given the above restriction I would recommend a Carbine for SHTF scenarios, chambered for GP90. A SIG 553 would be your best bet, ammo availabilty, replacement parts etc etc are much more common than an AR-15 analogue.

and finally regards gun weary spouses, try getting her involved, in Switzerland there are lots of Community based events around shooting, get her involved.
On Saturday I've a Güggelscheissen ;) target shooting, prizes are chickens!

(My spouse demanded I get a gun safe before our first was born, I was a couple of months late :) )

Regards

Dio

ps If you are a Swiss Citizen, certain weapons are exempt of a WES, these are generally Bolt Actions.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by The_bangfrog_MK23 » Thu Oct 15, 2015 3:00 pm

Dioxin wrote: Güggelscheissen
Completely off topic: I see what you did there :shock: :lol: :crazy:

On topic:
I seem to get a different vibe about H&K here in Switzerland and in the US. A lot of friends of mine and me myself own something made by H&K. I never witnessed a stoppage that wasn't user error and everybody seems to be quite happy with their respective H&K Firearm.
I never heard any complaints about customer service that didn't involve some luxury problems and numb nagging of the customer. This might be attributed to the fact that most (not all) firearms dealers are also certified gunsmiths with several years of school and training, so you can expect them to take a lot of work off of H&Ks customer service.

Anyways, I stand by what i wrote earlier:
If the P30 fits you, it is a perfectly valid purchase. Treat it well and it won't let you down.

Have fun, be save and aim true 8-)
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Sun Oct 18, 2015 6:40 am

Wow thank you all for the great respones. This is a great forum and im happy to have good people to talk to. Today talking about weapons seem to be somehow a no go. And not many people are intrested in firearms from the people i know. So its cool to have you guys in the future.
I managed to complete my equipment now. I took a while and started with a leatherman tool, but meanwhile i have managed to get almost everything. From the tactical plate carrier to the tomahawk i found everything. The only thing im still searching for is a good night vision device. The good gen3 stuff is not allowed to be exported outside the US. I envy u guys in the US. From firearms to gadgets you have the finest from the finest. And even the prices are most time much much cheaper. Guess you could even find a gen3 tube in a garage sell :) wish we would have some kind of garage sell here.
Does somebody from the US know which nightvision is allowed to get exported? Anybody expirence in this field?

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dioxin » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:04 am

From0toHero wrote:The only thing im still searching for is a good night vision device.
You REALLY need to invest some time in local law. Night Vision is also Verboten, unless you get special permission.

Also quality NV is cost prohibative. Add into this the Export cost is pretty high if you go that way.

You are probably much better off with just a Tac-Light.

Have you actaully tried to travel with all this kit you've bought?

And regards the US having the "Finest of the Finest" I'm not convinced, the US has relatively strict import restrictions, so US citizens tend to be running around with US kit. Oddly enough many manufactuers produce lower quality kit specifically for the US market. Steiner and Sig Sauer are examples I have experience of. This is due to price pressure from US markets.

Regards
Dioxin

My 2 Cents about NV:
Its only really applicable to being on the offensive, given the nature of this website, I dont think anyone would advocate this.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:22 am

Dioxin wrote:
From0toHero wrote:The only thing im still searching for is a good night vision device.
You REALLY need to invest some time in local law. Night Vision is also Verboten, unless you get special permission.

Also quality NV is cost prohibative. Add into this the Export cost is pretty high if you go that way.

You are probably much better off with just a Tac-Light.

Have you actaully tried to travel with all this kit you've bought?

And regards the US having the "Finest of the Finest" I'm not convinced, the US has relatively strict import restrictions, so US citizens tend to be running around with US kit. Oddly enough many manufactuers produce lower quality kit specifically for the US market. Steiner and Sig Sauer are examples I have experience of. This is due to price pressure from US markets.

Regards
Dioxin

My 2 Cents about NV:
Its only really applicable to being on the offensive, given the nature of this website, I dont think anyone would advocate this.

Here in Switzerland Nightvision is allowed. I found good gen2 plus nightvision googles meanwhile. Legal bought from a good shop.(maybe its illegal to mount them on a firearm) And you asked if i put all on equipment. Thats crazy. For each situation you need diffrent gear. It depends in which situation you might find yourself. The main gear is a backpack with sleeping bag and waterfilter and some MREs. There is a thomahawk on the side of the backpack. Than there is the Vest with flashlight, leatherman tool, a big knife, medical kit, NVG, Steiner Binos in the backpack. Thats it. i try to keep it simpel. And if the Zombies would attack there would be my Susi with her 15 little fast friends ;)

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Thu Oct 29, 2015 3:26 am

Dioxin wrote:
From0toHero wrote:The only thing im still searching for is a good night vision device.
You REALLY need to invest some time in local law. Night Vision is also Verboten, unless you get special permission.

Also quality NV is cost prohibative. Add into this the Export cost is pretty high if you go that way.

You are probably much better off with just a Tac-Light.

Have you actaully tried to travel with all this kit you've bought?

And regards the US having the "Finest of the Finest" I'm not convinced, the US has relatively strict import restrictions, so US citizens tend to be running around with US kit. Oddly enough many manufactuers produce lower quality kit specifically for the US market. Steiner and Sig Sauer are examples I have experience of. This is due to price pressure from US markets.

Regards
Dioxin




My 2 Cents about NV:
Its only really applicable to being on the offensive, given the nature of this website, I dont think anyone would advocate this.


Imagine you are at night in the woods, everywhere there are Zombies. Would you use a flashlight that instant shows your position, or use your NVGs and be totaly in the darkness where you cannot be seen?

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:21 am

From0toHero wrote: Imagine you are at night in the woods, everywhere there are Zombies. Would you use a flashlight that instant shows your position, or use your NVGs and be totaly in the darkness where you cannot be seen?
Stupid People in Stupid Place doing Stupid things: That pretty much sums up being in the dark in the woods surrounded by zombies.

You may also underestimate the tunnel vision you get from NV, unless you are spending mega bucks.

You could be right about NV goggles vs rifle optics. I'm only working with translations
"night vision sighting devices"
Prices I've seen are 4,000 CHF for the base models.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:30 am

Dioxin wrote:
From0toHero wrote: Imagine you are at night in the woods, everywhere there are Zombies. Would you use a flashlight that instant shows your position, or use your NVGs and be totaly in the darkness where you cannot be seen?
Stupid People in Stupid Place doing Stupid things: That pretty much sums up being in the dark in the woods surrounded by zombies.

You may also underestimate the tunnel vision you get from NV, unless you are spending mega bucks.

You could be right about NV goggles vs rifle optics. I'm only working with translations
"night vision sighting devices"
Prices I've seen are 4,000 CHF for the base models.
Well guess you have to be ready for any scenario. You cannot always avoid dangerous situations.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:31 am

Dioxin wrote:
From0toHero wrote: Imagine you are at night in the woods, everywhere there are Zombies. Would you use a flashlight that instant shows your position, or use your NVGs and be totaly in the darkness where you cannot be seen?
Stupid People in Stupid Place doing Stupid things: That pretty much sums up being in the dark in the woods surrounded by zombies.

You may also underestimate the tunnel vision you get from NV, unless you are spending mega bucks.

You could be right about NV goggles vs rifle optics. I'm only working with translations
"night vision sighting devices"
Prices I've seen are 4,000 CHF for the base models.
And thats pretty rude to call me stupid. Or did i understand your statemant wrong?

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dioxin » Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:11 am

From0toHero wrote:And thats pretty rude to call me stupid. Or did i understand your statemant wrong?
You've misunderstood.

To flip it on its head. Give me a scenario where it would be advantageous to deliberately place oneself in this situation.

Lack of Visability, in a 360 degree threat environment seems like suicide.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by JeeperCreeper » Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:50 pm

TO THE OP:

-I think an HK pistol is a good choice for SHTF if that's its primary role.

-Buying only one gun, I'm shocked no one suggested something like a SIG P320 or P250. I'd look into those if you ever replace your HK since they are modular and you can have a few handguns in one. I love my P250 once you master the trigger.

-When it comes to your lady, I'd just take her shooting. That has converted all of my girlfriends in the past.

-Since you primarily can only get FMJ ammo, 9mm isn't the best but it will do. Obviously .45 will be better in FMJ, but that can still be subjective to some and is kinda moot now that you own a pistol and found a nice defense HP box.

TO THE FORUM:
-I believe the Hague convention is about no expanding ammo, not FMJ ammo only. (meaning there are options other than FMJ, it's just not allowed to expand. So lead bullets, wadcutters, HP sniper rounds... the ones for stability like match loads, etc are used. Also, I believe the US follows it but did not sign the document).
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by ZomCon Sargeant » Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:21 pm

The HK P30 is very nice. I would have highly recommend the HK VP9 or Walther PPQ over the HK P30 however as they have a much better trigger (Striker-fired). Although you stated that you got the LEM trigger which is better than the standard SA/DA trigger on most P30's.
The only downside of getting a H&K is that magazines are much more expensive and customer service is usually pretty bad. At least here in the US.

The Sig P320 is also another good choice. Now considering that you are in Switzerland I would look into the Sphinx SDP9. Super AWESOME Swiss made Handgun!

As far as 9mm vs whatever else. 9mm will get the "job" done just fine.
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:39 am

ZomCon Sargeant wrote:The HK P30 is very nice. I would have highly recommend the HK VP9 or Walther PPQ over the HK P30 however as they have a much better trigger (Striker-fired). Although you stated that you got the LEM trigger which is better than the standard SA/DA trigger on most P30's.
The only downside of getting a H&K is that magazines are much more expensive and customer service is usually pretty bad. At least here in the US.

The Sig P320 is also another good choice. Now considering that you are in Switzerland I would look into the Sphinx SDP9. Super AWESOME Swiss made Handgun!

As far as 9mm vs whatever else. 9mm will get the "job" done just fine.
Your right. At the time when i got the HK P30 there was no HK VP9. If i could have choosen, guess i would have gone with the VP-9. Once i hade a Glock 17C and it was a very soft shooter, so i imagined the VP-9 would be similar. The funny thing is the price. A HK P30 cost 1400sfr and a HK VP-9 800sfr. Cant understand the huge price diffrence. Maybe it is because the Zürcher Kantonspolizei uses also the P-30 so they sell them more expensive. I found something very awesome for the P-30 and VP-9. There are like the famous 30 Shoot Glock mazaines available. They cost around 70 Dollars. So im planning to check some of those.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by From0toHero » Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:48 am

Dioxin wrote:
From0toHero wrote:And thats pretty rude to call me stupid. Or did i understand your statemant wrong?
You've misunderstood.

To flip it on its head. Give me a scenario where it would be advantageous to deliberately place oneself in this situation.

Lack of Visability, in a 360 degree threat environment seems like suicide.
I give you a example. You went hunting, because your food suply beginns to get less. Your in the woods and found a nice buck. You try to fire a good shoot, but somehow you stumble and you hurt your foot real bad. You have huge issues to move and its getting late and slowly dark. But your still 2 hours from your home. Now your in the middle of a big forrest, hurt and you know at night in the woods its very dangerous. Now you seem to believe that NVGs have a very very limited view. It depends on which NVGs you use. The ones i have are binos and work very very well. You have a good view and can walk and see very good because it haves a headmount.

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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by The_bangfrog_MK23 » Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:11 am

I can clear the issue of NVG laws in Switzerland.

You CAN own:
Any NV or thermal optical device that is handheld and can not be mounted on a firearm.

You can NOT own:
Any NV device that has adjustable crosshairs AND provisions to mount it on a firearm, basically a NV-scope (Nachtsicht-Zielgerät). You will need a special permit for one of those (Kantonale Ausnahme-Bewilligung).
Reference:
https://www.fedpol.admin.ch/fedpol/de/h ... affen.html

There are some potential technical workarounds, like mounting a NV in front of an EOTech or an Aimpoint, but god help you if you if you have to explain this to Police or Jury. It might de jure not be expressedly verboten, but de facto you WILL have a hard time and impact on money and nerves as it will be confiscated for further checks.

Personal experience:
There are lots of stores that sell NV and thermal optics in differing price ranges. I own multiple NV and one thermal device, all of those devices can not be mounted on firearms.
My thermal vision does have a crosshair, but it is non-adjustable and the device itself can not be mounted to a firearm in any practical or useful manner. Thus it's reserved for the role of the spotter/observer.
Cant understand the huge price diffrence. Maybe it is because the Zürcher Kantonspolizei uses also the P-30 so they sell them more expensive.
No, it's because it has the HK logo on it. The ONLY HK firearm I've seen so far that isn't way overpriced is the SFP, a.k.a. the "Glock killer", for around 800 - 900CHF. Which is what caused the price of Glocks to drop below 800 CHF and annoy the piss out of my favourite dealer :rofl: .
And in all openness and honesty, screw the price politics of certain manufacturers, importers and gun dealers.
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Dabster » Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:35 am

doc66 wrote:.. I saw an entire department deal with issues relating to H&K's refusal to address problems with the USP... Everyone had problems with HK's failure to stand by their product; it was always the user's fault.
Could you kindly elaborate on this?
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Re: First post have mercy :) Which Handgun?

Post by Neville » Thu Nov 05, 2015 2:21 pm

Congratulations on becoming a firearm owner.

A long gun is what you take when you anticipate needing to be in a gun fight, and thus, fighting ability becomes top priority.

A pistol is what you take when you don't expect a fight, but want to cover your bases if an unanticipated fight occurs... in this scenario other issues take top priority such as digging post holes or whatever else it was you expected to spend most of your time doing. The advantage of a pistol is that it is light and concealable, and maneuvers well in tight quarters.

Do get as much training and practice as possible with your pistol, and educate yourself thoroughly on the legal requirements and responsibilities surrounding it there in your area.

When opportunity presents, based on the ammo restrictions you quoted, I would suggest a 12 gauge shotgun should be your next purchase, if 00 buckshot is permitted there.

Good luck and happy shooting.

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