.40 S&W Ammo performance

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by Stercutus » Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:51 pm

I use WWB as the baseline standard. Every time I see it, it more than double 9mm and a bit more than .40.

I like the concept of the .357 SIG but even at .19 vs .34 I can shoot near 50% more 9mm. That is a lot of shooting.

If I were into PCSBR I think I would look into one in .357 SIG.

Compare it to 9mm at 12" and you get a bit of a bigger edge. The sound and light show goes away too. I don't know if it makes it work worth it but it might worth looking in to if you are into that sort of thing.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Oct 26, 2014 4:29 pm

I don't buy ammo in person. The money I save by buying online covers the shipping and then some.

I usually shoot with the .40 barrel in it. I think an entry carbine like the MPX would be great with the .357 Sig, but I'm not huge on pistol-cal carbines.

I fully admit it's as impractical as .45 ACP, but it's fun, and that's why I have it.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:49 pm

Jeriah wrote:I don't mean to turn this into a caliber debate, but I want to ask, what is the advantage of .40 caliber? I get that .45 is more lethal than 9mm with military (Hague approved) FMJ ball, and that 9mm is just as good (ish) with modern (LEO/civilian) defensive ammo. I own and shoot both calibers. But a friend carries .40, and at the range the other day, we shot all three calibers, and the .40 seemed to recoil (and muzzle flip) worse than .45. Far from a compromise, it seemed like a "worst of both worlds." What am I missing? And is ammo selection a factor? I don't know what grain she was shooting.
I ended up going with .40 caliber when I got into M&P pistols. The first one I bought so that I would have a .40 S&W pistol for the next panic (this was back around 2007/2008), as the only pistol ammo that was available in several stores was .40 S&W. That was the compact model. Then I picked up the full-sized model in .40 because I wanted a full-sized M&P, and 9mm conversion barrels were cheap. I finally picked up a .40 Shield, and that is the only one that I regret. The only reason I regret it is because the 9mm conversion barrels won't be out until next year, and I have the retarded California model, which means the wait for that barrel will be even longer.

With regards to the ammo, I already shoot .400 Corbon, and I have found that the 165 grain bullets in that gave me the best compromise in terms of mass and velocity between the 135 grain and 180 grain bullets. Flatter trajectory and higher velocity than the 180s, with more penetration than the 135s. With .40 S&W, I am still figuring out what to shoot. The main gun that I am testing is the Shield, as I am one of the first in line for a CCW as soon as Peruta gets resolved, and that is going to be my EDC gun. At this point, I have purchased several brands of self-defense ammo in different weights and configurations. I will end up going with whatever works best in that particular gun. I am keeping the selection narrowed down to 155-180 grain self-defense bullets, about half of which are made specifically for short-barreled handguns. I'll post here once I get the results.

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by Stercutus » Mon Nov 03, 2014 7:04 pm

I'd be interested in seeing that when you get it in.

I am not sure how much difference "flatter shooting" will make a most self defense ranges but I am curious.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by learntwoshoot » Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:50 am

Stercutus wrote:I looked in the ammo vault for inventory the other day and realize that I have been uneven in my .40 selection and for the life of me can not recall why it is this way. Any thoughts on which JHP would like provide the best penetration and terminal performance?

135gr JHP Gold Dot

165gr JHP Fiocchi

180gr JHP Federal

I am kind of leaning towards the 135 gr myself based upon this:

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/40sw.html

I plan on selling/trading the rest of them so I don't want to shoot a few rounds out of a box and spoil the box.

ETA It is coming back to me I think I bought the big pills for the little Glock 27 and the little pills for the big Glock 22. I still have no idea what I am doing with the 165s....
Best loads out there are Speer GJHP in 165/180 for self-defense Federals premium self-defense ammo is compariable since they are both owned by ATK.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:26 am

Stercutus wrote:I'd be interested in seeing that when you get it in.

I am not sure how much difference "flatter shooting" will make a most self defense ranges but I am curious.
At self-defense ranges I doubt it will make any difference. But I shoot the Corbon .400 out to 125 yards, where you can actually see the change. I can normally hit within about 12-18" of where I am aiming. Not a tack driver, coming out of a 1911 with iron sights, but it is very satisfying when you smash a clay pigeon at that range. ;)

I basically have the laser sight set at 10 yards for self defense. It shoots a bit higher than that in closer, and a bit lower out farther. But I will find out which one gets me the best groupings overall, and see if there is any difference in felt recoil. All the brands I am trying are major label self-defense rounds, so terminal performance isn't going to really be a factor. They should all be reasonably good in that area.

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by PistolPete » Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:54 pm

I'm another guy that prefers the recoil of 357 sig to 40 S&W. I'm not sure what it is, I can get back on target faster with the 357 sig. Plus if you keep an eye out you can find deals on ammo from time to time, like Speer Gold Dot 50 round boxes for $25 I got a couple weeks ago. That's serious defensive ammo for that price.

Is it a better choice than 40 or 9? Hard to say. 357 sig will push the same bullet deeper than 9 (in general, of course, some of the lighter construction bullets made for 9 can blow up at 357 sig velocities) but is that worth the tradeoff in extra muzzle blast and reduced capacity? Only you can answer that. Everyone is different.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Fri Nov 07, 2014 6:40 pm

So, the results with the different .40 self-defense ammo in the M&P Shield were:

Winchester 180 grain Training and Defense ammo: Both types (FMJ Training, and the JHP Defense) shot at the same point of aim/impact at self-defense ranges. The groups tended to be vertical strings of shots, all touching. The recoil was stiff, but manageable.

Remington Compact Pistol 180 grain JHP: This shot at the same point of aim as the Winchester ammunition. The recoil was comparable. The groups didn't string as much vertically. If there was something different about these being "compact pistol", it would have to have something to do with the muzzle flash, or the velocities that the bullets open up at. I couldn't tell any difference on the user's end. It was too bright for me to see if they were lower flash than the other rounds. The bullets basically look like the Golden Sabre loads that Remington has been perfecting over the past 20 years.

Federal Low Recoil 135 grain JHP: These bullets may have possibly had the tiniest bit less recoil than the other rounds. They used a Federal Hydroshok bullet. The point of impact was about 4 inches low at 7-10 yards. And the groups at that range were... Crappy? Pathetic? Horrible? This gun did NOT like these rounds at all. The groups were in the 4" range at self-defense ranges. And they didn't consistently hit off from the vertical axis in one direction or another. It was basically a nebulous cloud centered about 4 inches below the point of aim. I can live with either of the other two rounds. But this one is in the "Do NOT Buy Again" category. Which is too bad, as I usually like Federal products.

Again, these were the results in my particular pistol. I am going to try some 165 grain self defense loads next time, after I get some more flavors. In the mean time, if I am going to CCW, I will probably go with the Remington rounds. Not because I am going to assume that since they are for compact pistols, they will have bullets designed to work at compact pistol velocities. Which they probably do. Nor because their groups were significantly better than the Winchester Defense loads. Because truthfully, the difference between a cluster and a string of impacts that close together won't make any difference. I am going to go with the Remington simply because I bought 3 boxes of them on a clearance deal. That gives me more than enough ammunition to keep using the same lot number and loadings for the foreseeable future, even if I rotate them out after a few months of carry.

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by 400 Grains » Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:00 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In two identical guns, I find the Sig easier to control.
Than .40, sure. Does it penetrate deeper than 9mm or something?
It should. It sends near exact the same size bullets 20% faster, at more than twice the price.
Faster velocity often results in lower penetration....

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by Stercutus » Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:35 pm

400 Grains wrote:
Stercutus wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:In two identical guns, I find the Sig easier to control.
Than .40, sure. Does it penetrate deeper than 9mm or something?
It should. It sends near exact the same size bullets 20% faster, at more than twice the price.
Faster velocity often results in lower penetration....
It can. Bullet design and bullet type being the important points. My point is that it has more "horsepower" so you can do more with it.
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by gunsandrockets » Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:44 am

Stercutus wrote:I looked in the ammo vault for inventory the other day and realize that I have been uneven in my .40 selection and for the life of me can not recall why it is this way. Any thoughts on which JHP would like provide the best penetration and terminal performance?
When it comes to .40 S&W, I don't think best penetration and terminal performance should define which ammo you choose to stock. Sure you could marginally improve penetration and terminal performance, but probably sacrifice best accuracy and most certainly pay a great penalty in cost per round.

.40 S&W was the first cartridge designed with contemporary standards of self-defense in mind while using a hollow-point expanding bullet. Because of that history, almost any non-crappy 180 grain hollowpoint bullet fired at 950 fps should give perfectly adequate expansion and penetration from a .40 S&W.

So I advise testing a few brands of factory 180 grain loads for acceptable accuracy from your .40 caliber handguns. Then from the pool of brands which are accurate enough for you, pick the cheapest.

But if price is no obstacle and maximum energy is what you desire, you might consider one of the .40 S&W loads from Buffalo Bore Ammunition.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... _list&c=25
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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by 400 Grains » Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:57 am

gunsandrockets wrote:
Stercutus wrote:I looked in the ammo vault for inventory the other day and realize that I have been uneven in my .40 selection and for the life of me can not recall why it is this way. Any thoughts on which JHP would like provide the best penetration and terminal performance?
When it comes to .40 S&W, I don't think best penetration and terminal performance should define which ammo you choose to stock. Sure you could marginally improve penetration and terminal performance, but probably sacrifice best accuracy and most certainly pay a great penalty in cost per round.

.40 S&W was the first cartridge designed with contemporary standards of self-defense in mind while using a hollow-point expanding bullet. Because of that history, almost any non-crappy 180 grain hollowpoint bullet fired at 950 fps should give perfectly adequate expansion and penetration from a .40 S&W.

So I advise testing a few brands of factory 180 grain loads for acceptable accuracy from your .40 caliber handguns. Then from the pool of brands which are accurate enough for you, pick the cheapest.

But if price is no obstacle and maximum energy is what you desire, you might consider one of the .40 S&W loads from Buffalo Bore Ammunition.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... _list&c=25
To get a higher pressure round that will likely over-expand and under-penetrate? In a cartridge known for breaking guns at standard pressures?

Uhhhh.... no.

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Re: .40 S&W Ammo performance

Post by tedbeau » Thu Feb 12, 2015 12:54 pm

Yeah I have to agree with .400 grains on this one. As much as I love Buffalo Bore Ammo, it's what I carry in my snub nose 38, I will not buy their 40 caliber because they basically tell you not to use it in a glock 40 caliber unless you switch to a fully supported barrel.
If they made a standard pressure 40 that wasn't a lead free light bullet I might purchase it. And also for the record there is no standard for +p in 40 caliber so who knows what it will do to your gun beside void the warranty.

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