First Pistol Purchase

[00dlez]

This thread is an offshoot of a much more general thread I started here: http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 8&t=109182" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, I'm a prospective/soon to be first time gun owner and would like some input on my pistol selection before I test fire a few models at the range. Now that I have more specific questions, I thought that brining it here would be appropriate and get a little more traffic.

My primary goal is HD, but I would like the first purchase to be able to also be a CCW, primarily while I am at work (meaning business attire, see thread above).

As of now, I am considering these models:
Glock 19
Glock 26
CZ 75
SP 2022
P 250

If anyone has any personal recommendations, advice, alternatives to these models, pitfalls (ie. maintenance difficulties for first-timers, overly expensive accessories, etc.), or other comments on these models, they would be much appreciated. I'm also very curious to hear about how you all feel about purchasing used versions of these models... are there specific concerns you would have with any of them? Are the savings worth considering used in these instances or should I buy new?

I recently bought two online coupons for local ranges (~$100 total for guns, ammo, and instruction for myself and girlfriend) so I hope to have some direction/input before I walk into a sales situation.

Thanks in advance!

[Cadillac]

If you get a chance to shoot the Glock 19 and like how it feels, I would recommend that from this list.

I personally don't like the way they feel, but they are reliable and good shooters.

[Das Sheep]

I have a Glock 26 and I think its just great.

If you wear a tucked in shirt and can deal with having only 6 or 6+1, consider a Ruger LCP with a sneaky pete holster. It looks like a cellphone or small tablet case and gives you, I think, enough gun. They have pocket magazine holsters if you want another 6 rounds.

http://www.ruger.com/products/lcp/models.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.sneakypeteholsters.com/ruger ... belt-clip/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[northernxposure]

This thread is an offshoot of a much more general thread I started here: http://www.zombiehunters.org/forum/view ... 8&t=109182" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically, I'm a prospective/soon to be first time gun owner and would like some input on my pistol selection before I test fire a few models at the range.

My primary goal is HD, but I would like the first purchase to be able to also be a CCW, primarily while I am at work (meaning business attire, see thread above).

As of now, I am considering these models:
Glock 19 - The Gold Standard of ZS, and should be a gun that everyone eventually should own. Does everything, works great, lots of options. Is a Compact

Glock 26 - The G19's little brother, and a better match if you already have a G17/34, is mildly more concealable, just as reliable, but is easy to get up to a G19 size without some of the G19 pluses. Would look elsewhere for a "do all", but works great as a "supplement". Is a SubCompact.

CZ 75 - Fullsized steel CZ, usually a TDA with decocker unless you get a specific version. Has rails inside the slide, so slide will be smaller to grip - may take some training. Will be fantastic to shoot, heavy to carry, parts and holsters are slim unless you want to pay for them. Great HD gun, would look elsewhere for a "do all".

SP 2022 - Was the best deal going for a long while with the SIG name. Very similar to the steel/aluminum P series, just in plastic. If you like a Sig and the feel of a Sig, it's still a great investment. A little larger than a G19, but not a true full size. Parts/Mags are expensive and version specific, holsters can be a pain but are available - take note of the rail as there were different versions. Very reliable, and also a TDA gun.

P 250 - Jack of all trades, master of none. Tries to be everything, with all the parts and pieces you can swap, but in the end it's still a very good DA only pistol as a full size, with the compacts being a little more quirky. 2nd Gen version is much improved over 1st, be aware that mags have changed and frames have changed between generations. If you enjoy a DA pistol, it will make you happy. Would be a fun 2nd or 3rd addition to a firearm collection, but would not be my starting point.

See answers in red.

Guns I would also recommend you shooting/looking at -

Smith and Wesson M&P Compact/Fullsize
Springfield XD and XDM varients


NXP

[PistolPete]

Shooting a handgun well takes a lot of practice. For that reason I think everyone's first handgun should be a 22. Buy one, put 2,000 rounds through it, then sell it and buy a centerfire gun. (or keep it for range use) You'll be more experienced by then and have a better idea about what you want, and you'll have a good start on the skills needed to use it properly. That's way cheaper than putting 2,000 rounds of 9mm downrange, and you are less likely to learn yourself a flinch out of the gate.

Of the models you listed they all have a good reputation except the Sig P250.

[00dlez]

Shooting a handgun well takes a lot of practice. For that reason I think everyone's first handgun should be a 22. Buy one, put 2,000 rounds through it, then sell it and buy a centerfire gun. (or keep it for range use) You'll be more experienced by then and have a better idea about what you want, and you'll have a good start on the skills needed to use it properly. That's way cheaper than putting 2,000 rounds of 9mm downrange, and you are less likely to learn yourself a flinch out of the gate.

Of the models you listed they all have a good reputation except the Sig P250.

I get what you are saying, and might actually go this route, but if I might play devils advocate...

1) Wouldn't it be better to get a HD weapon sooner rather than later? A .22 pistol on my nightstand IS better than nothing, but in the next 6-9 months, I can only afford myself a single purchase... is a .22 really going to be it for HD until then?

2) How much of the .22 shooting skill will really transfer? If I practice shooting only .22 rounds, then can't make the switch to a 9mm, am I really doing myself that much of a favor?

3) I haven't had extensive practice, but I did have the chance to test a few different pistols recently (see the link to the other post in the OP for details), is firing a .22 really going to give me a better idea of what I want?


Also, what specifically gives the Sig P250 a bad rep? Is it just generally not as good at the price point or is the a technical spec about it that isn't ideal?

[Kenny Soward]

1) Wouldn't it be better to get a HD weapon sooner rather than later? A .22 pistol on my nightstand IS better than nothing, but in the next 6-9 months, I can only afford myself a single purchase... is a .22 really going to be it for HD until then?

I purchased a .22 and .9mm at the same time, but if you can only afford one purchase right now, I think a 9mm would be fine. But a .22 is cheap, and the ammo is even cheaper. That means more rounds, more practice, and more practice familiarizing yourself with shooting in general.

2) How much of the .22 shooting skill will really transfer? If I practice shooting only .22 rounds, then can't make the switch to a 9mm, am I really doing myself that much of a favor?

Essentially, with the right technique (grip, trigger pull, etc), you should be able to pick up just about any handgun and be fairly accurate. More recoil from an unfamiliar gun should have nothing to do with the accuracy of your first shot. However, getting the sight back on target for rapid firing is another story.So, honing your skill on your favorite gun is always good. That is what my father told me, and he was a KY State Trooper who won multiple awards for sharpshooting, so I've always taken his advice to heart.

Personally, I take a .45 and a .22 to the range with me and put 50 rounds at a time through the .45, and 150 through the .22, alternating them. The lower price of the .22 ammo keeps me at the range longer.

In other words, practicing on a .22 will help you establish the proper form and technique, which will transfer (in principle) to other guns. It shouldn't hurt your form at all or ruin it for other guns you may get later.

3) I haven't had extensive practice, but I did have the chance to test a few different pistols recently (see the link to the other post in the OP for details), is firing a .22 really going to give me a better idea of what I want?

The .22 will give you a good baseline, but there's nothing wrong with starting out with a 9mm...in my opinion.

Hope this helps.

[PistolPete]

I get what you are saying, and might actually go this route, but if I might play devils advocate...

1) Wouldn't it be better to get a HD weapon sooner rather than later? A .22 pistol on my nightstand IS better than nothing, but in the next 6-9 months, I can only afford myself a single purchase... is a .22 really going to be it for HD until then?

2) How much of the .22 shooting skill will really transfer? If I practice shooting only .22 rounds, then can't make the switch to a 9mm, am I really doing myself that much of a favor?

3) I haven't had extensive practice, but I did have the chance to test a few different pistols recently (see the link to the other post in the OP for details), is firing a .22 really going to give me a better idea of what I want?


Also, what specifically gives the Sig P250 a bad rep? Is it just generally not as good at the price point or is the a technical spec about it that isn't ideal?

I'll play devil's response since that's the game.

1) No, because you aren't going to be able to hit shit in an actual defensive situation. I work with new shooters all the time and in general the guys who buy a centerfire handgun and barely shoot it suck with it. Their accuracy is awful. Now, there are some people who aren't this way, but in general building skills with a handgun takes practice. It's easier to not suck with a 22, working with new shooters has demonstrated this time and time again, as recently as last week. The same dude (or chick) who can't keep it on the paper at 20 yards with their S&W SIgma (or whatever their sole handgun happens to be) can actually shoot groups with a 22. Not great groups all the time, but at least keep it on target.

2) It's all about muscle memory. No, you can't just practice with a 22 and become an expert with a Glock. But it's building muscle memory and working on things like sight alignment, proper stance and grip. You need to practice those things regardless, and it's easier and cheaper with a 22.

3) It may or may not.

As far as the P250 just search on reviews and read a dozen of them. They'll tell you more than I can.

The one time I'll recommend a centerfire pistol as a first and/or only handgun is if the person is never going to practice. They are going to suck anyway, so in the unlikely chance they hit their target when they are being attacked at least that 9mm or 357 round will do more damage than a 22.

Other experienced people may certainly disagree.

[raxar]

I'll play devil's response since that's the game.

1) No, because you aren't going to be able to hit shit in an actual defensive situation. I work with new shooters all the time and in general the guys who buy a centerfire handgun and barely shoot it suck with it. Their accuracy is awful. Now, there are some people who aren't this way, but in general building skills with a handgun takes practice. It's easier to not suck with a 22, working with new shooters has demonstrated this time and time again, as recently as last week. The same dude (or chick) who can't keep it on the paper at 20 yards with their S&W SIgma (or whatever their sole handgun happens to be) can actually shoot groups with a 22. Not great groups all the time, but at least keep it on target.

2) It's all about muscle memory. No, you can't just practice with a 22 and become an expert with a Glock. But it's building muscle memory and working on things like sight alignment, proper stance and grip. You need to practice those things regardless, and it's easier and cheaper with a 22.

3) It may or may not.

As far as the P250 just search on reviews and read a dozen of them. They'll tell you more than I can.

The one time I'll recommend a centerfire pistol as a first and/or only handgun is if the person is never going to practice. They are going to suck anyway, so in the unlikely chance they hit their target when they are being attacked at least that 9mm or 357 round will do more damage than a 22.

Other experienced people may certainly disagree.

There is a lot of wisdom above. It cannot be stressed enough how important learning to shoot is.

Last year I made a dedicated effort to practice with pistol, a lot. I was doing 550 rounds of .22 and 100 rounds of 9 a week, minimum. I was decent enough to start with but towards the end of the summer I was getting excellent. So yes, shooting a ton of .22 will improve your skills with a centerfire. Although it's smart to not only shoot a .22, so you don't become conditioned to the very light sound and recoil and then flinch when you shoot something bigger.

[Rogue45]

I am going to agree with PistolPete here. Muscle memory, proper grip, trigger control, sight picture, and stance all take quite a bit of practice to achieve and shooting is a perishable skill. Buy a quality .22 pistol AND an HD gun. I also like both Glocks mentioned, but the G19 will do more things well than the G26. A CZ75 will have the least felt recoil out of the guns you mentioned and has a very good trigger in SA. I've had one for 13 years and its still one of my favorites to shoot. I can't speak for the SIGs.

[Das Sheep]

90% of your accuracy basically comes from learning how to hold the gun and not mess up your aim. Getting your thumb to not squeeze with your hand etc is the best. A lot of new pistol shots shoot way to the right (or left if you are a southpaw) because of their thumbs.

That said I recommend a normal gun that you want, be it a glock or xdm or what ever, and for at home practice, a good airsoft clone of the gun you carry. You can practice drawing and shooting, holstering, etc without risk of shooting yourself in the leg or having a negligent discharge. Also good ones are about as accurate inside of 10m as a normal pistol. So you can practice a lot of point shooting, drawing, etc, for basically free after you pick up the pistol. I do this with my Glock. I personally believe it makes me a better shot with the Glock, and its amazing for practicing booger finder discipline when you are drawing and the like. I recommend this over a .22lr to practice with. Glocks also have .22lr conversion kits for almost all models, if and when you want to go that route down the road when .22lr is cheap again.

Edit: I am not saying practicing with an Airsoft gun can take the place of training with your side arm, but I do feel that it is an excellent supplement to that training for those of us who can not afford to shoot 1000+ rounds (or even 200+ for some of us) every year our of each of our guns.

[northernxposure]

As an aside, both the CZ75 and the G19 offer a 22LR conversion kit so that you can practice inexpensively and still have a centerfire pistol when you want. Also gives you the benefit of training on the same gun you will be shooting centerfire out of - same trigger, same grip, same manual of arms as it's the same gun.

AA makes the G19 kit, runs about 250ish with mags. CZ has the Kadet 22LR option and is a factory kit for the CZ, somewhere in the 300's if memory serves.

Not sure if Sig has a kit for any of there offerings.

NXP

[erknjerk]

I love my CZ75 P07 Duty. It's a polymer frame and around Glock 19 size. I much prefer the SA/DA over the double action only of the Glocks. I've owned the G19 & G26.
CZ also makes the RAMI which is the sub compact size CZ75, its next on ny list.

Sent From Me On A Toilet.

[erknjerk]

BTW the CZ is my most combat accurate handgun I own.

Sent From Me On A Toilet.

[Gingerbread Man]

Shocking to all, I recommend the G19. I'm also going to throw out the option of going to a range that rents guns and shooting 22LR rentals as opposed to buying one. A few trips to the range with a rental and you should be able to have a sound grasp on the fundamentals.

[Kelvar]

Most of the important muscle memory, etc., from practicing with a .22 will transfer to another pistol, so Pete may be right about that. My first pistol was a .22 target pistol (Ruger Mark II), and I'm glad that's where I started. While I don't think anyone here would recommend a .22 for self defense, shooting a .22 accurately is certainly going to serve you better than shooting a larger caliber inaccurately. So if you had to rely on that for a few months while you develop some fundamentals, I'd feel fairly comfortable waiting, I think. So a full size .22 target pistol isn't a bad idea.

For the self defense pistol, I agree that a Glock 19 is an excellent choice. That's my personal go-to. However, if you find you have trouble with the (admittedly nominal) recoil of a 9mm, then perhaps a steel frame pistol might be worth considering for a "gateway" self-defense gun. In my personal experience, the heavier frame pistols seem to reduce any perceived recoil. I was a longtime fan of the Smith & Wesson steel frame traditional double action (TDA) pistols for a long time until I actually got some serious trigger time with a Glock.

As for the Sig Sauer P250, the best thing about it is the price, if you can find a deal. Otherwise, it has little going for it. The single stack mag makes it marginally easier to conceal, and it is a Sig, which means quality, but that's about it. For its size, I think it is too heavy for a daily carry piece and certainly not worth the reduced magazine capacity for the overall size. If you're planning to carry daily, I do think a polymer frame pistol makes a lot of sense. Glock and the Smith & Wesson M&P line seem to get the best reviews from the experts.

[00dlez]

Great feed back, thanks

As I mentioned in the other thread (link in the OP) I did prefer and shot better with the heavier steel frame 9mms than I did with polymers, but if that is something that is prone to change once I get additional practice and develop better fundamentals... then I'd rather not make it a "must" with my first purchase.

Rather than buying a .22 pistol simply for the sake of practicing, I find myself interested in the conversion kits that northernexposure mentioned... Are those common to all the models on my list or just the models he listed (CZ75/G19)? How quick can the conversion be made - a few minutes or is it a more involved process? Something I could do at the range on my own? I certainly like the idea of training on the same pistol rather than one that is stricly for training and the other gets less use...

[Whackpack7]

Being employed at a gun store, I spend a decent amount of time helping people narrow down firearm choices that range from one gun versus another gun to first time gun buyers who have no idea what to get. It is something I actually enjoy doing and I love when I have happy customers who are satisfied. My shop does not do commission so we don't force gun sales on people. We would rather someone buy a $300 gun and be satisfied than a $1000 gun and hate it.

That being said, what you are requesting is a pretty common thing people come into our store for. They want something they can use for HD but have or are planning on getting their CCW Permit. It is important that a CCW is small enough to be easily and comfortably concealed, but is also usable in the range to practice. Another very important detail is the reliability and durability of said weapon.

I am our store's 'Glock Guy'. I love the Glock line of products for myself (someone who has carried A LOT of different firearms), but I typically throw that out the window to help the customer shop for themselves and NOT me. Of the weapons listed, I would however highly recommend the Glock 19 and here are my reasons:

1) This weapon uses a common caliber, 9x19mm. It is cheap to shoot, and still has decent knockdown power. In a SHTF scenario, it will be easy to find should you be running low on ammunition.
2) This weapon really has the best of both worlds. It is small enough to be concealed on your person, but still has a nice enough hand grip that you can git your hand on it and shoot it in the range without causing much pain from trying to hold a grip that is too small. I carry the Glock 30 for this same reason. Best of the 21 and the 36.
3) This weapon accepts magazines from several Glocks. The 19 can use magazines from any Glock double stack 9mm of equal or larger size ie the 17. This makes the use of mags easier and possibly finding magazines easier in a SHTF scenario.
4) This weapon IS A GLOCK. Here is where my preference comes in. Glocks are carried by 65% of LEOs and government agencies. For the price, you cannot wrong. They are durable (I dropped mine 60' off a cliff. No BS), popular, and easy to work on and disassemble. Accessories are common, and you usually don't have to go far to find another Glock owner. That being said, you can probably find replacement parts more easily during a SHTF scenario since they are such a popular weapon.
5) The weapon features a rail. This is an awesome feature on any dual purpose handgun. When you slap this bad boy on your night stand or in a drawer, you can throw a Streamlight or Surefire on it and then have a light ready should you have to go into HD mode after dark.
6) I am in the market to get a G19 a great reason in and of its self.

Finally, if you are buying new, I would suggest the Gen 4. Not because it is roughly $30-$40 more, but because of the features. The 2 stage spring in my opinion makes the cycling of the slide more smooth which is useful for follow up shots. The weapon comes with interchangeable backstraps (4 of them) which is also a nice feature to get a better fit. The weapon also has an enlarged mag release which helps with mag changes. The symmetric stippling pattern is great for better grip. And the most important part is that Gen 4's have 3 mags instead of just 2. As mentioned before it is a roughly $30-$40 price difference. A factory mag is about $30... So you are definitely getting more bang for your buck.

The most important thing to remember though is the fact that it is YOUR GUN. Try them and see what feels best to YOU. Not what someone else told you feels good. You will be the one carrying it daily and defending your life with it. It needs to be something you are comfortable with and something you trust and enjoy.

Best of luck!

[northernxposure]

Rather than buying a .22 pistol simply for the sake of practicing, I find myself interested in the conversion kits that northernexposure mentioned... Are those common to all the models on my list or just the models he listed (CZ75/G19)? How quick can the conversion be made - a few minutes or is it a more involved process? Something I could do at the range on my own? I certainly like the idea of training on the same pistol rather than one that is stricly for training and the other gets less use...

Converting them is as easy as replacing the slide/barrel assembly and putting a new 22LR specific magazine in them. Very fast on the Glock, a little more involved with the CZ, but still not terrible and definitely under a minute to exchange. Can be done by the user at any time.

The Glock 22LR kits can be made to fit the 17/22 series frame or the 19/23 series frame. AFAIK the CZ Kadet is available only on the fullsized CZ75/85,not the compacts or the RAMI, or the polymer versions. Turns out it is compatible, just will stick out a bit -
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz- ... t-adapter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a point of note on the P250, it's a double stack for calibers under 45ACP, with the 45ACP being the singlestack. The bulk of the issues came about due to light hammer strikes on the Gen1 units. Gen2 units supposedly got an upgraded trigger/hammer module that significantly reduced these occurences. Still overly pricey for what it is - a modular DA auto - and makes the most sense in areas that restrict the numbers of handguns that a user may own as the control unit can be made into almost anything.

NXP

[Mikeyboy]

I own a Glock 19 and a few others Glocks. I love them and they are reliable and easy to maintain.

HOWEVER one thing you need to make sure of his that your girlfriend or wife shoots it and gets training. Glocks unlike the heavier Sig and CZ you mentioned can have what is called a "limp wrist jam" Its not real common, but with some inexperienced and physically weak shooters, they have a bad habit of loosening their grip when the pull the trigger. If they do that they can jam a glock pistol. Most kids and smaller female shooter can overcome it once they are made aware to "hold on tight".

Honestly get either the Glock 19, the CZ or the Sig 2022. They are fuller size guns with a longer sight radius, great to learn pistol marksmanship and great for home defense. Learn to shoot it well, then get another gun for CCW in the future.

If you truly want just one to you the gun for CCW with business attire, I would get a Glock 26 or a Sig 250. All the other guns you mention are great for home defense, but kind of big and heavy for CCW.

[Kenny Soward]

Hell, y'all are definitely talking me into a Glock 19

[00dlez]

Rather than buying a .22 pistol simply for the sake of practicing, I find myself interested in the conversion kits that northernexposure mentioned... Are those common to all the models on my list or just the models he listed (CZ75/G19)? How quick can the conversion be made - a few minutes or is it a more involved process? Something I could do at the range on my own? I certainly like the idea of training on the same pistol rather than one that is stricly for training and the other gets less use...

Converting them is as easy as replacing the slide/barrel assembly and putting a new 22LR specific magazine in them. Very fast on the Glock, a little more involved with the CZ, but still not terrible and definitely under a minute to exchange. Can be done by the user at any time.

The Glock 22LR kits can be made to fit the 17/22 series frame or the 19/23 series frame. AFAIK the CZ Kadet is available only on the fullsized CZ75/85,not the compacts or the RAMI, or the polymer versions. Turns out it is compatible, just will stick out a bit -
http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz- ... t-adapter/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just a point of note on the P250, it's a double stack for calibers under 45ACP, with the 45ACP being the singlestack. The bulk of the issues came about due to light hammer strikes on the Gen1 units. Gen2 units supposedly got an upgraded trigger/hammer module that significantly reduced these occurences. Still overly pricey for what it is - a modular DA auto - and makes the most sense in areas that restrict the numbers of handguns that a user may own as the control unit can be made into almost anything.

NXP

Am I reading that right? ~$400 for the conversion kit? I might as well buy a new gun... Unless the likelyhood of finding a used kit is possible, but even then, a cheap target pistol might still be what I go for...

[buck85]

First you need to ask yourself why do I need a gun?
For me it is about carry and the situations that you are going to get in.I live in the very rural county and my life style is very simple. I want a gun that I can grab as i go out the door and be able to go any where or do any thing that I need it to do. For years a sw2012 pistol was my go to weapon. A rugar 20/45 is going to be my next purchase.

[MacWa77ace]

Shooting a handgun well takes a lot of practice. For that reason I think everyone's first handgun should be a 22. Buy one, put 2,000 rounds through it, then sell it and buy a centerfire gun. (or keep it for range use) You'll be more experienced by then and have a better idea about what you want, and you'll have a good start on the skills needed to use it properly. That's way cheaper than putting 2,000 rounds of 9mm downrange, and you are less likely to learn yourself a flinch out of the gate [main reason, hard to undo].

Of the models you listed they all have a good reputation except the Sig P250.

^^This; If you have little to no handgun experience you're better off learning the basics with a .22. Then once you've learned basic handling, think about what you want to use it for , open carry, concealed carry, target, PD, HD, etc., and buy based on loadout requirement. You may end up with a lot of different handguns that way if you're lucky.

My CZ75 Clone [EAA Witness TZ 75]
Conversion on this from 9 to 40 takes about a minute if I'm not in a hurry. Clear it, pop the slide pin out, Change the slide, pop the slide pin in. The slide, barrel and spring are all one self contained assembly.