The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Forum dedicated for rifles and shotguns from basic to tactical.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
Wolfblade
* *
Posts: 132
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:55 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: The original Romero 'Dead' trilogy, AMC's The Walking Dead
Location: The United States of America, North America, Holy Terra, Sol, The Milky Way Galaxy

The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Wolfblade » Wed May 30, 2012 6:04 pm

DISCLAIMER: First off, this is only intended as a thought experiment, perhaps to be later used for literary (i.e. storywriting, roleplaying) purposes; I AM NOT going to go out and build one of these because I do not consider earning a Darwin Award to be a life goal. Second, according to my legal understanding, this does not violate discussion of illegal content.

Now that's out of the way, on to the thought experiment.

Say you've got some survivors (but not necessarily 'survivalists'), some time after The Big One. Firearms, for a myriad of reasons, are scarce. Still, the intrepid band wants the ability to throw lead for the purpose of collecting meat and fending off bad guys. They've got themselves a 'wizard' who has the know how and materials available to manufacture black powder. However, they have little manufacturing ability; no smiths. They still rely a great deal on scavenging and improvisation. So would it be feasible for these survivors to build crude muzzleloaders using salvaged gas pipe for barrels, without blowing themselves up after three or four shots? I've read about a myriad of more modern examples that use smokeless powder, like the Philippine Guerrilla Gun aka the Richardson Gun, that seem to work rather fine with repeated use. So would the lower pressures of black powder make gas pipe blunderbusses/muskets feasible?

Again, this is a hypothetical discussion for nerdy purposes, please don't throw rocks at me. :| :lol:
Image
Kommander wrote:
Cpt. MelonBuster wrote: If you put an AR stock on an AK Kalashnikov himself will show up at your house and beat you with a vodka bottle.

User avatar
DarkAxel
* * * * *
Posts: 3847
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: The Evil Dead Series, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, NOTLD, Resident Evil Series
Location: Jackson, KY
Contact:

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by DarkAxel » Wed May 30, 2012 6:17 pm

I see a lot of gas pipe in my line of work (contractor). I've seen all kinds of patched together gas lines, but the good systems are made of copper or galvanized steel. Short answer?

Copper, NO. Too soft.

Galvanized steel? Maybe. I'm willing to bet it wouldn't hold up more than a few shots though. It's just not made for high pressures, and it's made to be flexible enough to bend easily with hand tools.
vyadmirer wrote:Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.
Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.

ZS Wiki

Doctorr Fabulous
ZS Lifetime Member
ZS Lifetime Member
Posts: 12210
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:06 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Evil Dead, Zombieland, 28 Days/Weeks Later

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed May 30, 2012 6:44 pm

Short answer: no.

Long answer: Also no, unless you work out the heavy math to make sure that the pipe can handle the pressure. The question is, how are you going to make projectiles that will slide out while getting a good enough seal to still fling at lethal speeds? Too tight: pipe bomb. Too loose: squibs. Plus there will be no accuracy to speak of, because instead of rifling you have industril cast imperfections.

For a book/movie idea it's more feasible that they find a book about early smithing and learn by trial and error. For real life: buy a few of the $90 muzzle loader kits at Cabelas and call it good.

Or buy a rifle and a fuckload of ammo.
Opinions subject to change in light of new information.
Image
http://i.imgur.com/wG6ZMjE.jpg

User avatar
Regulator
* * * * *
Posts: 1416
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:19 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days, Dawn of the dead II, Shaun of the Dead,
Location: The mountains of Kansas, USA

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Regulator » Wed May 30, 2012 7:57 pm

Sure you can. I'm not going to be the guy who tells you how, but there's plenty of plans out there to see how it's done. The problem is that most experimenting and or testing you would do to assure it is safe and effective to use then, would be illegal now. Learning modern muzzle loading would probalby be the best bet to get the knowledge you would need to improvise down the road if need be.

zoiders
* * * *
Posts: 996
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:36 am

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by zoiders » Wed May 30, 2012 8:02 pm

In parts of Africa where the muzzle loader is still used to hunt with the scrap metal of choice for a muzzle loader is the steering column from an old landrover.

User avatar
azrael99
* * * * *
Posts: 2371
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:55 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead, 28 days later, Zombieland, World war Z (when it gonna be out)
Location: Saguenay,Quebec Canada

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by azrael99 » Wed May 30, 2012 8:51 pm

there a idea

Image
"We stopped to look for monster under the bed , the day we realized that they were inside us"

User avatar
MacAttack
* * * * *
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:11 am

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by MacAttack » Thu May 31, 2012 1:08 am

Lets just say that yes it can work.

The problem with an improvised firearm is the way you decide to set it off. Flintlock and match lock are SLOW and loud. Loud enough to make a deer jump sometimes before the actual shot goes off.

Percussion cap is the bast way to go but that's a bit harder to improvise.


Why not a bow? For several hundred years after firearms were invented the bow was still the best hunting weapon out there. faster reloads, longer range, Sometimes more than one shot on target if you miss the first time, far more accurate and cheaper to make.
Plus there is NO chance they will go boom on you.


There are actually better ways to use black powder to fend off bad guys than the hand carried firearm.

Nitro cellulose would be a better explosive if the components could be found. And most if not all can be found in the PAW if your wizard knows where to look.
With nitro cellulose shape charges and AP explosive devices are possible. To an extent.

User avatar
AKFTW
* * * * *
Posts: 4176
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 11:49 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: Shaun of the Dead, Dawn of the Dead (remake), Land of the Dead, 28 Days Later, and Zombieland!
Location: VT
Contact:

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by AKFTW » Thu May 31, 2012 1:53 am

I have to agree, I'd take a bow or crossbow over a muzzle loader. Many advantages being reload speed, stealth, accuracy (assuming primitive projectiles as well) and the ability to re-use your ammo.
docdredd wrote:those pandas need to harden the fuck up
Image

Image

User avatar
Rev
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2645
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 2:54 am
Location: Huntington, West Virginia

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Rev » Thu May 31, 2012 2:24 am

MacAttack wrote:Why not a bow? For several hundred years after firearms were invented the bow was still the best hunting weapon out there. faster reloads, longer range,
Our indians dropped them pretty damn quick.

If you only have the tech to make smoothbore muskets I wouldn't bother with producing them. Work on the ability to produce rifled barrels then you may have a slug thrower worthy of "defensive" use. That means firing and reloading from cover/fortifications.

So, to answer your question, yes you could probably make some horrifically crude muskets. I just don't think it'd be worth the effort.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

Zombie Squad Forum Rules: Read Me!
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 44&t=19895

User avatar
URBAN ASSAULT
* * * * *
Posts: 2931
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 12:51 am

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by URBAN ASSAULT » Thu May 31, 2012 2:41 pm

Or you could just make a homemade flamethrower to bring the self-defense game up to a whole new level!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuD_XNSs ... re=related" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course there are the silly issues of setting yourself on fire because your contraption decides to immolate itself, but hey, it's just skin... who needs it?

:lol:

-urban
"When under imminent Predator attack, try to act all Thalidomide-y till they go away".-me
3%

User avatar
Dogan
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4936
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 am
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Dogan » Thu May 31, 2012 2:49 pm

Rev wrote:
MacAttack wrote:Why not a bow? For several hundred years after firearms were invented the bow was still the best hunting weapon out there. faster reloads, longer range,
Our indians dropped them pretty damn quick.
When rifled barrels, cartridges and flint-locks had been invented. In short, after firearms had evolved considerably.

If I were facing a 15-1600's fuse fired smoothbore handcannon? Yes, I'd want my bow.

Skip forward a few hundred years.

If I were facing a rifle-barreled, percussion fired rifle which could reach out and touch someone 100+ yards away almost instantly? I'd take cover or stay out of range.


In the ZPAW, I'd give some honest consideration to a self-contained PCP air rifle in a .22+ caliber. No need to track down cartridges, powder, primers/percussion caps for projectiles, only lead and upkeep parts. And a cheap little pellet gun can easily be converted to a larger caliber, a single shot to PCP. Yes, the range would be <100 yards by a good bit, but fro self defense against straggling/crawling zeds, all you'd really need to do is pierce the skull at fairly close ranges.
goofygurl wrote:Dogan – In charge of all things fucked up
Are you ready to die, John Walker?| CLAPTRAP!
Your lucky number has been disconnected.|ASCII biohazard symbol: ☣
Winner of the May/June 2013 ZS Postal Match

User avatar
Rev
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2645
Joined: Wed May 12, 2010 2:54 am
Location: Huntington, West Virginia

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Rev » Thu May 31, 2012 3:06 pm

The Indians had already dropped their bows for the musket. They absolutely went wild for the flintlock rifle. They had almost entirely dropped bows in the flintlock era, not percussion.
Malo periculosam, libertatem quam quietam servitutem.

Zombie Squad Forum Rules: Read Me!
http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopi ... 44&t=19895

User avatar
Dogan
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4936
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 am
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Dogan » Thu May 31, 2012 3:10 pm

Rev wrote:The Indians had already dropped their bows for the musket. They absolutely went wild for the flintlock rifle. They had almost entirely dropped bows in the flintlock era, not percussion.
*facepalm*

Er, yeah. But the point is, for the "several hundred years after firearms were invented", they were still crude, and bows surpassed them in terms of reliability, range, reload time, and certainly weight. Then firearms surpassed bows in range, their reliability and reload speeds improved and the Indians started choosing them over bows.

About all I know about Indians and firearms is that during the Indian Wars, the US(?) was armed with trapdoors and that for some reason, an Indian with a lever action is the most deadly thing in a Western.
goofygurl wrote:Dogan – In charge of all things fucked up
Are you ready to die, John Walker?| CLAPTRAP!
Your lucky number has been disconnected.|ASCII biohazard symbol: ☣
Winner of the May/June 2013 ZS Postal Match

User avatar
flsgear
* * *
Posts: 317
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:59 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: :D all of them I think O_O
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Contact:

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by flsgear » Thu May 31, 2012 3:44 pm

This question comes up every few years and all I can think is.. Good god... why?

As someone who has shot competitive black powder in the N-SSA for over 15 years, I cannot fathom trying to make black powder work in a PAW situation.

First, there's the issue of powder. Sure, you can make your own powder. If you know how. And if you don't blow your ass to kingdom come in the process.

Second, there's the issue of weight. 58 caliber lead minie projectiles are NOT light. We're talking on the order of 500 grains.

Third, there's the issue of speed, accuracy, range, etc. Heavy bullets don't fly very far and arc 'like a rainbow'. They don't achieve very high FPS either. Accuracy is VERY good... if you weigh your bullets & powder to a tenth of a grain and ensure symmetry between batches. Which should be totally doable on primitive post PAW technology AMIRITE

Fourth, it's a mute point because anyone with reloading supplies can do infinitely better off modern cased projectiles. I mean how hard is it to stock up on primers, powder, and brass? Cast your own lead bullets, and you've already beat 90% of the argument of why you'd shoot black powder in a PAW (i.e. I'll shoot black powder because I can make my own bullets!) on top of that use LESS lead *AND* LESS powder. Sounds like a net win to me.

Fifth - load times. For a pistol (which is moderately economical if you can produce your own percussion caps) you're looking at around 4-5 minutes to load a 6 shot revolver (that's not an exaggeration). For a 'front stuffer' (I.e. not a sharps, henry, gallagher, etc) musket or carbine you will AT BEST make 3 *AIMED* shots per minute. I can shoot/load faster if just spraying lead downfield. But even then it's a top end of 5 and I'm not hitting anything to boot.

Sixth - smoke. For those who have never shot black powder.. let me be clear - modern 'smokeless powder' is called that for a reason. Black powder is horrendously smokey on a GOOD DAY. On a bad day 8-10 guys (let alone the usual several thousand we have shooting at nationals) can put enough smoke on a range to make target acquisition difficult.

Seventh - If you can't make percussion caps you're stuck with flintlock. Now... some people can shoot flintlock. I am not one of those people. Something about having an unshielded explosion 3 inches from my face makes me have this very bizarre desire to flinch.

what I *CAN* understand however:

A black powder mortar or cannon. If you can get your hands on one, then you have a SIGNIFICANT force multiplier in a resource hungry PAW. Cannons are retardedly accurate (6 inch groups at 200 yards for a good 3 inch cannon), retardedly powerful (I've seen a standard solid round go clear through the front of a car and out the back leaving a gaping hole), and scary as F*CK if you're not expecting one.

Downside: LOTS of lead.. LOTS of powder. Cannons are very expensive - like 15,000 dollars USD. Mortars are more affordable and while shorter range/less accurate, can carry very heavy rounds (like a 40lb siege mortar - those things mean serious business!).
Owner, Messina's Front Line Survival Gear - website at http://www.flsgear.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;!
Blog: flsgear.wordpress.com (mostly inactive)
Twitter: twitter.com/mmessina_author (active, not biz related)
Facebook: http://on.fb.me/foPFgx" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (very active)
Also part-time sci-fi author - http://amzn.to/vYUbTw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Dogan
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 4936
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:17 am
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Dogan » Thu May 31, 2012 3:55 pm

flsgear wrote:This question comes up every few years and all I can think is.. Good god... why?

As someone who has shot competitive black powder in the N-SSA for over 15 years, I cannot fathom trying to make black powder work in a PAW situation.

First, there's the issue of powder. Sure, you can make your own powder. If you know how. And if you don't blow your ass to kingdom come in the process.

Second, there's the issue of weight. 58 caliber lead minie projectiles are NOT light. We're talking on the order of 500 grains.

Third, there's the issue of speed, accuracy, range, etc. Heavy bullets don't fly very far and arc 'like a rainbow'. They don't achieve very high FPS either. Accuracy is VERY good... if you weigh your bullets & powder to a tenth of a grain and ensure symmetry between batches. Which should be totally doable on primitive post PAW technology AMIRITE

Fourth, it's a mute point because anyone with reloading supplies can do infinitely better off modern cased projectiles. I mean how hard is it to stock up on primers, powder, and brass? Cast your own lead bullets, and you've already beat 90% of the argument of why you'd shoot black powder in a PAW (i.e. I'll shoot black powder because I can make my own bullets!) on top of that use LESS lead *AND* LESS powder. Sounds like a net win to me.

Fifth - load times. For a pistol (which is moderately economical if you can produce your own percussion caps) you're looking at around 4-5 minutes to load a 6 shot revolver (that's not an exaggeration). For a 'front stuffer' (I.e. not a sharps, henry, gallagher, etc) musket or carbine you will AT BEST make 3 *AIMED* shots per minute. I can shoot/load faster if just spraying lead downfield. But even then it's a top end of 5 and I'm not hitting anything to boot.

Sixth - smoke. For those who have never shot black powder.. let me be clear - modern 'smokeless powder' is called that for a reason. Black powder is horrendously smokey on a GOOD DAY. On a bad day 8-10 guys (let alone the usual several thousand we have shooting at nationals) can put enough smoke on a range to make target acquisition difficult.

Seventh - If you can't make percussion caps you're stuck with flintlock. Now... some people can shoot flintlock. I am not one of those people. Something about having an unshielded explosion 3 inches from my face makes me have this very bizarre desire to flinch.
I keep seeing PCP as a fair alternative. Not the best, not even good, but we're talking about dire straits here.

1. Air.
2. Ever carry a tin of 250 .177 pellets, or a box of 100 .22lr? Light, fairly compact.
3. Moderate FPS, but toss on a pressure gauge, do some simple math (or a LOT of shooting) and you can compensate for differences shot to shot.
4. Projectiles are compact, cheap. With enough skill, you could surely cast your own. They wouldn't be pretty, but they'd work.
5. 20 pumps. Then five shots at fire-cycle bolt-aim-fire. Then 15 more pumps and keep shooting.
6. No smoke. A puff from water vapor, maybe. That dissipates within 1 sec.
7. No explosions.

Mind you, making airgun-grade parts would be very difficult, but they'd be very specifically useful, and (logically) therefore cheaper to barter for.
goofygurl wrote:Dogan – In charge of all things fucked up
Are you ready to die, John Walker?| CLAPTRAP!
Your lucky number has been disconnected.|ASCII biohazard symbol: ☣
Winner of the May/June 2013 ZS Postal Match

Arkane
* * * * *
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Where the pavement ends

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Arkane » Thu May 31, 2012 4:45 pm

Backwoodsman magazine had an article some years ago about making homemade muzzleloading shotgun barrels. If I can find my copy I'll see if it lists the specs.

TripleThreat
*
Posts: 40
Joined: Mon May 14, 2012 7:09 pm

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by TripleThreat » Thu May 31, 2012 5:19 pm

Wolfblade wrote:DISCLAIMER: First off, this is only intended as a thought experiment, perhaps to be later used for literary (i.e. storywriting, roleplaying) purposes; I AM NOT going to go out and build one of these because I do not consider earning a Darwin Award to be a life goal. Second, according to my legal understanding, this does not violate discussion of illegal content.
If you have black powder and what is essentially steel shot, I think you can come up with other methods to create something to defend yourself if the need arose. Something that works less on individual accuracy and more on proximity. Apparently I can't actually talk about it though.

If you had to, if you had no choice in a legitimate PAW, the only thing I could see being useful would be a 'wall concept' Get a row of ten barrels that you think would handle the tolerance and then make ten rows of them. Rig it on a wheeled contraption and make it able to be fired remotely. If you can't win with accuracy, you can win with volume, if the primary point is defense. Since it would be inside your base/fortress/living area, weight is somewhat negligible since you aren't looking to take it out of your walls. Pointed in a funnel, where those looking to over run your base/fortress have no choice but to cross through to get to you, I could see it might be worth the trouble and time. One shot alone might not be accurate. 100 at once to take out a first wave might be a different story, not just for actual impact, but demoralizing the attacking force. I think that might be an understated consideration, in a legitimate PAW, in a world without firearms, if you've got something that goes bang and loud, it might make others think twice about trying to harm you.

IIRC, in WW2, the Russians used trucks with multiple rocket tubes on top. The purpose, IIRC, was not accuracy but volume, speed and mobility.

Given a crude option, I'd rather have two crude options than one, if possible. If I can't have accuracy, what else can I get? If I can't have range, what else can I get?

User avatar
DarkAxel
* * * * *
Posts: 3847
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:25 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: The Evil Dead Series, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead, NOTLD, Resident Evil Series
Location: Jackson, KY
Contact:

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by DarkAxel » Thu May 31, 2012 8:58 pm

flsgear wrote: A black powder mortar or cannon. If you can get your hands on one, then you have a SIGNIFICANT force multiplier in a resource hungry PAW. Cannons are retardedly accurate (6 inch groups at 200 yards for a good 3 inch cannon), retardedly powerful (I've seen a standard solid round go clear through the front of a car and out the back leaving a gaping hole), and scary as F*CK if you're not expecting one.

Downside: LOTS of lead.. LOTS of powder. Cannons are very expensive - like 15,000 dollars USD. Mortars are more affordable and while shorter range/less accurate, can carry very heavy rounds (like a 40lb siege mortar - those things mean serious business!).
A really sharp individual can make a passable cannon from a tree trunk and iron banding. Of course, not just any tree will do, and much experimentation would be required to find the optimum mix of powder, shot, and projectile weight.

Mythbusters did an episode on tree cannons, and they had a hard time blowing it up.
vyadmirer wrote:Call me the paranoid type, but remember I'm on a post apocalyptic website prepared for zombies.
Fleet #: ZS 0180

Browncoat

Imma Fudd, and proud of it.

ZS Wiki

User avatar
MacAttack
* * * * *
Posts: 2992
Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:11 am

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by MacAttack » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:10 am

The only problem with the log cannon was the fact that they had to keep adding extra wadding for each subsequent shot. It was REAL hard on the bore.

But if they steal lined it somehow........

Just to give away an idea.
I would make the tree cannon bore the same size as a small coffee can. I would use the coffee can as a crude shotgun type wad to hold a bunch of improvised shot.
Pre cut the sides and hold it together with duct tape.
Use enough tape and its a canister shot that breaks apart when it hits something. Use less tape and a loose top and it flowers open like a shotgun wad pretty much letting it act like a HUGE shotgun.

If I had the chance to make an all metal cannon I would have it firing solid shot for range and accuracy.


But a ballista or catapult would be a better way to send an explosive payload downrange. Its just simpler than designing an improvised timed shell or impact detonator capable of being fired out of a cannon.

Gregory Merlon
* *
Posts: 134
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:31 pm
Location: WI

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Gregory Merlon » Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:43 am

I'd argue that such a muzzleloader is possible, albeit like many, possibly ill-advised if done incorrectly. The main reason people seem to be against such a thing is the possibility of the pipe rupturing, but that pressure is something that one can control by simply using less powder. Thus, even with a weak pipe, gunpowder can be used to propel such a bullet. The problem is, the less powder, the less pressure, the slower the bullet, and conseqently, the weaker the kinetic energy. This can be partially offset by using a larger and heavier projectile (this causes its own problems, mostly with long-term stabilization), but this wouldn't be much of a problem for a point-defense weapon like a blunderbuss(but penetration may be limited).

If the pressure does need to be greater than what the pipe could typically contain, the barrel could be reinforced by either sliding it into a larger pipe, or reinforcing it via metal bands. The latter option would be more of a safety precaution that might lessen the effects of a catastrophic rupture, rather than a long-term solution for pressure problems.

Keep in mind that simply because one only has blackpowder doesn't reduce options down to muzzle-loaders only. There are plenty of breech-loading designs that utilize blackpowder that can be relatively easily built, such as the chicopee or Martini-Henry actions. The Martini-Henry is hardly a cartridge to laugh off either, tossing a 400-500 grain bullet at roughly 1400 ft/second, which gives it about the same energy as a .30-30 Winchester in terms of average loadings. Some of these designs may require a primer, which the US Army at one point recommended improvising by using powdered up matchheads, particularly those of wooden survival matches.

And just to show a somewhat intimidating version of what I'm talking about, take a look at this. To be fair, it's almost more of an anti-material rifle in terms of use than a typical hunting gun.

This is not to say that there aren't a host of problems with blackpowder muzzleloaders, there's obviously a reason they've been replaced, but I think they're actually much more capable than people realize, particularly as hunting weapons.
"Don't listen to the folks who say these things aren't practical. You just have to know what they are capable of and what their limits are. They're really good for a leaving a blood trail so the cops can find the guy that stabbed you to death with a broken bottle." ~ Yossarian

BHP
* * * * *
Posts: 2297
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:34 pm

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by BHP » Fri Jun 01, 2012 1:49 pm

Regulator wrote:Sure you can. I'm not going to be the guy who tells you how, but there's plenty of plans out there to see how it's done. The problem is that most experimenting and or testing you would do to assure it is safe and effective to use then, would be illegal now. Learning modern muzzle loading would probalby be the best bet to get the knowledge you would need to improvise down the road if need be.
You can do it right now and it most certainly isn't illegal. Building your own guns is perfectly legal as long as you are building something that is in a legal configuration (speaking about federal law only, some states take issue with it) and that is modern cartridge guns. Black powder guns are another matter entirely and while it's possible some states or localities may prohibit it I have never heard of that being an issue. Even if you were to construct a gun that was not strong enough and it blew apart you would not be guilty of having created a bomb (that requires intent). That does not mean that you can't be attacked through civil court, nor does it mean you can't be charged for some other criminal offense (as there are way too many laws these days).

I will say that 3/4 pipe is more than strong enough for modern 12 ga loads. As a kid I made a shotgun based on a picture that came out of the Philipines. At the time I knew enough to know that the barrel had to be 18 inches but I did not know about the overall length needing to equal 26 inches or greater but thankfully after fireing a 25 round box of game loads through it I lost interest in it and it reverted back to being a 20 inch pipe and some other loose parts. A few years later I made a double barrel 12 ga that was perfectly legal. It was crude and ugly but it was also fully functional. I actually intended to use it in high schoolduring my speach class but in the end I went with something else for that assignment. I have to admit that I have never done a muzzle loader with black powder, all of mine were cartridge guns.

One last thought, nitrocellulose is a great advance over black powder but without the added chemicals to retard the burn rate I'd be afraid to use it in a gun. It is an explosive and not a propellent in it's pure form and while it can be ignited it can definately transition from deflagration to detonation all on it's own. It certainly is possible to use it as a propellent but if forced to do so I'd keep the quantity very low, same with the case capacity. It is just too easy for it to explode when you want it to burn.

User avatar
azrael99
* * * * *
Posts: 2371
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:55 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead, 28 days later, Zombieland, World war Z (when it gonna be out)
Location: Saguenay,Quebec Canada

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by azrael99 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 6:49 pm

*WARNING* do Not try this, as it would be illegal and immoral,

i was thinking

with that system
Image

but loaded with "buckshot" type load and with a electrical pressure plate trigger , you could make a pretty good booby trap.
"We stopped to look for monster under the bed , the day we realized that they were inside us"

Arkane
* * * * *
Posts: 1344
Joined: Sat May 17, 2008 9:51 pm
Location: Where the pavement ends

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by Arkane » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:04 pm

Looking at that design I can see a few possible problems with it. The electrodes would get pretty nasty and probably foul after a few firings and I don't know how reliably the spark would jump with powder packed in around it. CVA had a similar system about ten years ago that used a capacitor and piezo electric ignition that had to be replaced pretty often. From what I've heard it was problematic at best.

User avatar
azrael99
* * * * *
Posts: 2371
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:55 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: night of the living dead, 28 days later, Zombieland, World war Z (when it gonna be out)
Location: Saguenay,Quebec Canada

Re: The Post-Apocalyptic Muzzleloader

Post by azrael99 » Fri Jun 01, 2012 7:12 pm

usually bobby trap aren't made to be used often, they are like a "just in case" solution
"We stopped to look for monster under the bed , the day we realized that they were inside us"

Locked

Return to “Longarms - Shotguns and Rifles”