Savage model 25 in 5.45 is a NO GO!

[Stompy_McFat]

Hello, all. Please see my intro in the introduction thread. As an AK 74 guy, I was very interested in a bolt action in 5.45. Seemed like a good cheap round to use to improve my personal accuracy from a bolt gun. It would feel a lot more "real" than a .22. (Yes, a .22 is a real gun, lethal, no thank you on getting shot with one etc. etc.) What I mean is a centerfire round with a flatter trajectory would be more fun for practice and more useful on pests and zombies and whatnot. I didn't want to drop the money for one of those old west German jobs. So I was REAL excited when I heard Savage was chambering their Model 25 walking varmenteer in 5.45. Until I called Savage and was told production of this rifle in this caliber was not going to happen. Very dissapointing that they would put it in their 2011 catalog but not make it. Are there any other sources of 5.45 bolty goodness out there? I was all excited to pull bullets from surplus rounds to equalize powder charges and sort rounds by bullet weight. It would be fun to see what kind of accuracy you could end up with from surplus ammo.

[TravisM.1]

At first glance, the 25 looks like an up-scaled rimfire action, with the exception of the three added locking lugs and the face of the bolt.

Most likely, they don't see a market for the 5.45 varminter. Yeah, there are probably some guys out there who'd be into it, but probably not enough for them to make it worth the cost of manufacturing them. Additionally, what kind of good ammo is there out there? I know, wolf, but I mean good, consistent, "worth shooting from a bolt action" ammo?

Why not look at their more conventional centerfire actions? You can swap the barrels on them at home (with nothing more than a vise to hold the action, a wrench for the barrel and a headspace guage, IIRC), assuming you're swapping between chamberings with the same case-head dimensions. You might spend more for it, being a more than a enlarged rimfire action, and you may need to get a barrel custom made for it, but look on the bright side- when you try it, and say to yourself, "That's why you never see bolt-action 5.45mm rifles!", you'll be able to put a different barrel on it.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I agree. The appeal of a 5.45 bolt action would be either to the fanboy 5.45 group, or the guys wanting a "camp rifle" (cheap, short, light, rugged, surplus ammo.) Unfortunately, the 5.56/.223 bolt actions do the same, but better. They do a 7.62x39 version though.

[jor-el]

As there are 5.45 ARs, an adaptation of a 5.56NATO rifle such as the Mossberg MVP or maybe a rebarreled Mini-14 may be the alternative.

[12_Gauge_Chimp]

As there are 5.45 ARs, an adaptation of a 5.56NATO rifle such as the Mossberg MVP or maybe a rebarreled Mini-14 may be the alternative.

That's what I was thinking.

A mass produced 5.45 bolt rifle probably won't happen anytime soon, but that doesn't mean folks out there won't do custom work on an existing platform.

[Kutter_0311]

The thought of this is very interesting, IMO.

I don't yet have a '74, but it's in the next 2 slots on my 'rifle' list, and a bolt in that same chambering would be nice.

I'll never get to making one, but it would be damn usefull...

[raxar]

they were also planning on making one in 5.7x28 that I was very interested in which they also canceled, leaving me with some 5.7 dies I have no use for, yet am reluctant to get rid of.

[MVegas]

As regards ammo-
http://www.hornady.com/store/5.45X39-60-gr-V-MAX-Steel-Case/

[Regular Guy]

I'm trying to understand why 5.45? It's not known for accuracy, kinda slow and does not use a common bullet. 243, ftw.

[raxar]

I'm trying to understand why 5.45? It's not known for accuracy, kinda slow and does not use a common bullet. 243, ftw.

because there is a ton of cheap 5.45 ammo on the market, and because it's such a hyped round.

[Kutter_0311]

I'm trying to understand why 5.45? It's not known for accuracy, kinda slow and does not use a common bullet. 243, ftw.

The interest is in ammo commonality with the AK74(a carbine comparable to the M4) and cheap surplus ammo with a flat trajectory.

AFAIK, 5.45 is pretty close to 5.56, performance-wise, yet cheaper price-wise.

Not looking for an expensive uber-round, just a good-enough round, cheap.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

I'm trying to understand why 5.45? It's not known for accuracy, kinda slow and does not use a common bullet. 243, ftw.

The interest is in ammo commonality with the AK74(a carbine comparable to the M4) and cheap surplus ammo with a flat trajectory.

AFAIK, 5.45 is pretty close to 5.56, performance-wise, yet cheaper price-wise.

Not looking for an expensive uber-round, just a good-enough round, cheap.

What, like a 5.56/.223?

[J.C.]

I personally wouldn't find 5.45 surplus to be accurate enough to be interesting to me, in a bolt action. But to each his own.

If you are really interested I think its probably worth an email to McGowen to see if they could make you a custom chambered barrel. Certainly other shops would do that but McGowen is quite reasonable price-wise. If you get a Savage 10 in .223, get the action block, barrel nut wrench and head-space gauges you can install the barrel yourself and even switch back and forth. Sure its a lot more money than a factory 25 but I'm guessing its your only option.

You might want to run the numbers on this though to figure out how much shooting you'd have to do to make this pay off. My estimate is around 10,000 rounds.

[Stompy_McFat]

Main reason I want is to not add another type of ammo right now. I've got a bunch of 5.45. I believe two major factors in poor accuracy in surplus is variation in charge and bullet weight. I HAD my plan to maximize accuracy ready to go.
Step 1. Get the rifle broken in and see how accurate that old surplus is without being hampered by an AK.
Step 2. Disassemble some rounds, weigh powder charges, check bullets for weight and even distribution of mass. Shoot some groups then and see where we are.
Step 3. Buy .221 resizing die from Lee. Resize some match .223 bullets in the 52 grain range. See if this helps at all. ( And if not, see if I can resize 5.56 tracer bullets and make my own tracers for under .35 per round. Because that would ROCK).
Step 4. Repeat with different ammo ( wolf, tula, hornaday, etc.).
I was not expecting sub moa, but if a good AK can get four moa, I would be surprised if the above would not get me well below three.

[Stompy_McFat]

O.T. Good replies so far, you guys know your collective shit. I'm going to look into .243, sounds like something that would work on more game than any .22 centerfire.

[nateted4]

O.T. Good replies so far, you guys know your collective shit. I'm going to look into .243, sounds like something that would work on more game than any .22 centerfire.

Yah, it's a rough call. Obviously the state of OR thinks so. >.22 center fire is kosher for deer, whereas >.24 centerfire is required for elk. That said, these caliber/cartridge cutoffs that people have are arbitrary and perpetuated by print magazines in order to sell ad space and new rifles (and carried over to the internet and campfires because people need to talk about something). Seriously, cartridge differences are negligible within classes.

I don't see what state you are in, but I would look to the hunting regulations to base your decision. If you are in a state that allows for any centerfire caliber, then .223rem will be plenty and I'd look to that. If you're out west and have regulations that dis-allow the .223rem for larger game, then .243win is obviously the better choice.

Campfire and internet terminal ballistics experts are usually less than trustworthy (so of course, take my advice with a healthy dose of salt). But remember, the plural of anecdote is not data. So just because some dude's uncle Einus won't leave the hunting camp with anything less than .338 Remington Ultra Mag just means that family is poorly endowed and Einus has too much money, not that it is required to successfully take game.

[Kutter_0311]

I'm trying to understand why 5.45? It's not known for accuracy, kinda slow and does not use a common bullet. 243, ftw.

The interest is in ammo commonality with the AK74(a carbine comparable to the M4) and cheap surplus ammo with a flat trajectory.AFAIK, 5.45 is pretty close to 5.56, performance-wise, yet cheaper price-wise.Not looking for an expensive uber-round, just a good-enough round, cheap.

What, like a 5.56/.223?

Yes, Doc Torr, I thought I put that right out there Love ya, bro!

[Stompy_McFat]

I'm in Indiana. I have not done any hunting other than varmint in many years. The ability to take game for me is a factor if SHTF before I purchase a good solid .308. That is the whole point of the small cheap centerfire is getting more trigger time to take into the big boy club. .223 may be my best bet. I'm in the Nat. Guard (pretend army to all you hardcores), and I may just have to get into reloading since I've got access to brass. Or I could go fill my pockets at the M 240 range and just go .308 I guess. But if a good 5.56 placed well will bring down a deer in some states, I'm sure it would work just fine here. Will check laws before doing so. O.K if the 5.45 is dead, I'm now gonna research 5.56 or .22-.250.
Note when I say 5.56 I mean .223, just habit for me. I understand the differences. Oh, am I right that 5.56 casings trimmed and resized with .223 shit will fire from a .223 chamber if loaded to .223 pressure specs? Same question with 7.62*51 NATO and civvie .308?

[TravisM.1]

I'm going to look into .243, sounds like something that would work on more game than any .22 centerfire.

The .243 is great. Ammo is inexpensive, widely available, and of good quality. A 100gr bullet at 2950 fps is nothing to sneeze at. It's a .308 case necked down to .244 caliber. Bullets and factory loads are available from around 55-60 grains, up to 105 grains. Recoil is negligible.

You can get decent rifles on the cheap in .243, also. CDNN's Howa 1500s come to mind; they've had them in catalogs for the past year and a half. 22" medium-heavy barrel, IIRC. Hogue overmolded stock in desert tan. $350. Consider, the Howa 1500 is the same action Weatherby uses for their Japanese-made rifles, the less-expensive ones you see at Wal Mart. It's also the same action S&W and Mossberg (IIRC) used in their older 1500 bolt actions. I've handled quite a few, and they seem to be of very high quality. The fit and finish isn't on par with, say, a 700 BDL or CDL, or a M70 super grade, but for the price, it wont be. Conversely, the 1500s I've seen have been nicer overall than the similarly priced entry-level rifles, like 700 ADL synthetics, or M70 "black shadows" (or whatever Winchester is calling their matte black synthetic stocked rifles nowadays). There's an aftermarket for the 1500, but it's a little limited.

You could also look at the 6mm Remington. It's certainly the equal of the .243 ballistically. The .243 came out first, the 6mm came out a few years later. Older 6mms use a faster rifling twist than the .243s of the same era. My 700 BDL Varmint Special will shoot 115gr handloads very, very accurately, while the .243's standard twist limits it to 105gr or so. But, just like ARs or anything else, some with the slower twist will shoot heavier bullets well, while some won't. In any event, current production rifles in both chamberings use the same twist rate, 1:12", I believve, so that's largely academic.

While the .243 case was developed from the .308 Winchester, the 6mm was made from the .257 Roberts. The .243 and 6mm case heads have the same dimensions, but the 6mm's case is a quarter inch or more longer. The "shoulder" on the 6mm is where the neck starts on a 243 case.
The problem with the 6mm is ammo availability. It's not super expensive, like the $75-80 a box ultra mag ammos. It's ~$20-$25 a box, and when you find it, buy it up. The bullet diameter is the same as a .243, so bullets are plentiful. I believe they both use the same standard rifle primers. It's really a handloader's cartridge, these days.

[Stompy_McFat]

A bunch of awesome shit I didn't know

Thanks for the info there Travis. I will look at that rifle and chambering today. That sounds like a flat shooter that could buck the wind better than a .223.

I'm also really impressed no one has told me to buy five mosins yet......

[TravisM.1]

A bunch of awesome shit I didn't know

Thanks for the info there Travis. I will look at that rifle and chambering today. That sounds like a flat shooter that could buck the wind better than a .223.

Very flat, carries thru wind far better than a .223/5.56. I can't think of any current production 6mm rifles offhand, but that doesnt mean they aren't out there. The .243 would probably be the better choice, in all honesty, even if you handload.

CDNN also lists some Howa .308s, if you wanted to go through with the "load up on 240 brass" plan. Similar price, similar rifle. Black stocks, IIRC.

I'm also really impressed no one has told me to buy five mosins yet......

Yup. We're movin' on up.

[Mr. E. Monkey]

I'm also really impressed no one has told me to buy five mosins yet......

We figured you already considered that...

[Stompy_McFat]

I'm also really impressed no one has told me to buy five mosins yet......

We figured you already considered that...

A crate full would be fun. Come to think of it, the wife has been asking for a new coffee table
Actually I do have an M 44 laying around I need to tinker with, cork shims and whatnot. Sigh...more projects than time .

[Mr. E. Monkey]

I'm also really impressed no one has told me to buy five mosins yet......

We figured you already considered that...

A crate full would be fun. Come to think of it, the wife has been asking for a new coffee table
Actually I do have an M 44 laying around I need to tinker with, cork shims and whatnot. Sigh...more projects than time .

More projects than time. And money. I'll tell ya, I need to figure out how to get paid to do this stuff. That's the ticket.

On topic(ish), my little sister has a .243, not sure what make, that she really likes. She's looking to put some new glass on it, but I'm not sure what she's looking for.