the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

[Turtlewolf]

UTG is airsoft, avoid it.

Yeah? Was not aware of that, just did some research of reviews on amazon and some forums and it looked good to go. While, I guess I'll replace it with one of those CDM or Mesa mounts in the future.

Any UTG I've ever seen was bad stuff, but maybe the stuff sold in the USA is better or a different company?
It's a cheap Chinese Airsoft company up here north of the 49th.

[AKFTW]

UTG is airsoft, avoid it.

Yeah? Was not aware of that, just did some research of reviews on amazon and some forums and it looked good to go. While, I guess I'll replace it with one of those CDM or Mesa mounts in the future.

Any UTG I've ever seen was bad stuff, but maybe the stuff sold in the USA is better or a different company?
It's a cheap Chinese Airsoft company up here north of the 49th.

Still the same cheap crap. I use one of their barrel clamps as light mount though, it's not all that bad, and I'd rather have the mount be the thing to break than my gas tube!

[Tperkins]

UTG is airsoft, avoid it.

Yeah? Was not aware of that, just did some research of reviews on amazon and some forums and it looked good to go. While, I guess I'll replace it with one of those CDM or Mesa mounts in the future.

Any UTG I've ever seen was bad stuff, but maybe the stuff sold in the USA is better or a different company?
It's a cheap Chinese Airsoft company up here north of the 49th.

Still the same cheap crap. I use one of their barrel clamps as light mount though, it's not all that bad, and I'd rather have the mount be the thing to break than my gas tube!

Yeah, that's what I have is like a barrel clamp, but with a 3/6/9 o'clock rail on it, which is what I hook my Viking Tactics light mount to. What I liked about it over some of the other rails that I looked at, is that I can place the light closer to my hand, allowing for easier fingertip activation (No one makes a quality tape switch for a SF G2). What I was eventually going to get was this. Maybe I can get a longer rail to extend the light more towards the position I desire? Seems like that would be a snagging point however.
Looks like it's only a replacement of the factory barrel clamp, so it appears there's no versatility on where you want to mount it due to the screw position. Might call them and ask.

[Tperkins]

Update on UTG Tri-Rail:

Thing sucks; as most cheap gear, doest not hold up to field use. Not only did it end up getting the follower stuck with more than 4 rounds, it became pretty loose after a dozen or so rounds. It's going back on Monday, and I'll be ordering the above light mount I beleive. Shouldn't of broken the rule of buy-once cry-once, which I ususally follow.

Anyway, I took it off and shot about 200-250 rounds afterwords over 4-5 hours without any problems. I do need to find a screwdriver that I can use to adjust my rear sight (small flatblade), as the windage is off a little, but it's still hardly noticeable. 870 worked flawlessly, and tried out about 5 different kinds of 12 Gauge ammo, and detemined that the Fiocchi Low Recoil 00 Buck is what I'm going to stock, it's only downside being that the case is not sealed, but that can be remedied easily if desired. That PDX ammo kicks really hard though, way more so than the Low Recoil Slugs, and slightly more than the Federal XM 00 Buck, which also shoots hard. The low recoil slugs have just a little more kick than the low recoil 00 Buck, but are noticeably less than the 00 Federal. I did want to mention, and the main reason of this posting, aside from the UTG crap, is that the spread of the PDX Slug/00 Buck rounds, at 25 yards, is about 4-5" for the one rounds, between slug and the 3 00 Buck rounds. I think one (myself as well) would be better off with just deciding plain old slugs or buckshot, nothing fancy.I think I'll retract my statement about my likening of the PDX and Buck/Slug rounds in general, as I'm going to keep the Fiocchi in the tube, and the LE Slugs in the sidesaddle. You still need to aim for the PDX rounds obviously, so you might as well use a slug or buckshot. Simpler, cheaper, and equally (if not more) effective on target. I really like the low recoil Fiocchi rounds for quick follow up shots.

[doc66]

LOL. Nice testing. Haven't I been saying stick with standard loads of buckshot this whole time?

[Tperkins]

LOL. Nice testing. Haven't I been saying stick with standard loads of buckshot this whole time?

Yep, I sometimes prove myself wrong with testing my theories. After testing, I feel like most people condoning such loads might not be out there shooting and comparing their buck/slug loads to independent buck and slug shells. Not only did I find that one would be better off shooting one or the other, the recoil on those PDX rounds, as mentioned, could have been nearly double than the Fiocchi low recoil rounds. I would have to say that the greater recoil would certainly have an effect on the ability to put multiple rounds downrange accuratley. I could shoot 4-5 rounds of Fiocchi to COM (as much as you can get with spread at 25yds) in the time it took me to get 2-3 rounds of PDX in a similar spread. Well, relativley speaking, as you're looking at 9 (00) projectiles for the Fiocchi, where the PDX is 3 (1 slug, 3 00 buck) projectiles. I can also say that the PDX rounds seem like 20-30% more recoil than the Federal Low Recoil slugs, so if you want to load sluds I'd suggest those as well. Unless I'm missing something, it would seem unlikley that terminal ballistics would be affected too much by the slightly slower shot (about 250fps less), with the aformentioned advantages.

[Doctorr Fabulous]

Pasted from :http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=94511&p=2113569#p2113569 By Request, In Regards to Breaching Shotguns.

Chainsaw Mossy 500 was designed for breaching teams, not for zombies. Unveiled at SHOT in 2010(ish?) with that expressed purpose.

As someone who has breached many doors, what do you think of it? Clown shoes gimmick, or potentially useful?

Most of my breaching is either mechanical (foot, shoulder, ram) or explosive (aka the awesome way) and I've never had the misfortune of having to breach with a scattergun (outside training). Having said that, let me make some observations:
1. I foresee short-stroking, should anyone try to work the action with the chainsaw handle, vice the regular pump arm on the bottom.
2. No stock+ big fuckoff obstruction of the sight picture means it's absolute shite to shoot in any other situation than "place muzzle device against lockset, load specialty breaching round, fire and hold on." Not that the single bead front, nonexiststant rear, and muzzle device don't make it shite to shoot anyway.
3. I'd bet half a paycheck that I can breach anything that can, faster, and have a weapon up and ready to rock faster than most folks can breach with that abomination, and either transition to a secondary. See above, if you think they should just adjust their grip and continue on.
[NB: I'm one of maybe six breachers that thinks the breaching team should be the first guys in the room. Some say they should be last, in which case the jackass with the "Chainsaw" will likely move out of the way just as fast as I do, more or less.]

Overall, you show me something that a short-barreled shotgun will breach that I can't breach faster, cleaner, safer, and more badass-er, and I'll ask how many man hours you used designing that scenario. A good ram will weigh twice what that clown-shoes POS does, but will breach faster and with no chance of ricochet or spatter from misuse. It's also faster to throw the ram into the and transition that it is to go from hip-firing that thing to whatever abortion of a grip you would use.

In short: shotguns for breaching are/were a half-assed in between measure for departments that didn't have trained breachers and saw too many movies. Thing is, a GOOD, SAFE, EFFECTIVE shotgun breach requires special rounds, special training, and takes just as long as a good, safe, effective mechanical or dynamic breach. Yeah, there are probably some guys good enough to stack, shoot, and move in under thirty seconds, but if you can wait 30 seconds, I can make the door go "BOOM!" and there's a lot less worry about things like missing the door, people being alert and ready beyond the door, or the door in general. Last door I blew myself went 'splodey, and a six-year-old on the other side suffered what was likely PTSD and mild tinnitus, which may or may not have been caused by having Taliban fighters use his house as a machinegun emplacement. My point is, he was alive, and the fighters inside were stunned by the door's sudden apparent disregard for the laws of thermodynamics, and they happily lay down and waited for us to come and explain it to them.

TL:DR the only reason to breach with a shotgun is to have an effective room-clearing weapon in the point man's hands whgen he does the breach. Between the influx of M4geries to larger departments, and the influx of trained MLDK's (Major League Door Kickers) to said departments, the shotgun is now a misused novelty.

As I said earlier, safely, effectively breaching with a shotgun is not like COD:MW where you shoot the door twice and it magically opens. It's a science (physics) and it's really easy to kill the wrong guy trying to copy the vidya games.

I know we've covered it in here before, but here's where the Serbu fits into the equation: Inagine if you had a full-auto only MAC-10 that only had a ten round mag and was chambered in .44Automag. There are slight differences, but a Serbu Super Shorty has about as much use as the above, and the MAC would be faster to reload. It has no use in breaching, might have use as a car gun if you really think that a 3-lb weapon will tame a shotgun round enough to control it at all. I'd rather have a Glock for that.

And to keep things on target: The Mossberg Chainsaw 500, Serbu Shorty and Super Shorty, and a .44Automag Mac-10 are all really shitty HD/SD guns.

I'm very receptive to criticism of my little baby article.

[zombiegristle]

Thanks for the repost Doc, good read. Having never breached myself, I have only posts like yours and comments from people at the local gun shop (i.e. bullshit) to go on.

[Tetra Grammaton Cleric]

Pasted from :http://zombiehunters.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=108&t=94511&p=2113569#p2113569 By Request, In Regards to Breaching Shotguns.

Chainsaw Mossy 500 was designed for breaching teams, not for zombies. Unveiled at SHOT in 2010(ish?) with that expressed purpose.

As someone who has breached many doors, what do you think of it? Clown shoes gimmick, or potentially useful?

Most of my breaching is either mechanical (foot, shoulder, ram) or explosive (aka the awesome way) and I've never had the misfortune of having to breach with a scattergun (outside training). Having said that, let me make some observations:

**snip** SCIENCE **snip**

I'm very receptive to criticism of my little baby article.

-

[Vicarious_Lee]

I missesd that post the first time you made it, but reading it in your avatar's voice gave it a beautifully surreal quality far and above its content.

10/10 that's high-quality posting. Thanks for sharing.

[doc66]

I would use my MAC10 for home defense. But then, I know how to use it, and have some modicum of trigger control.

As for the breacher, when stacking up with a ten man team (or 12, or 8 or 50), the breacher guy has all the time in the world to swap firearms; he's the last one in the door (or the third or fourth, depending on team tactics). Is it the best thing? No. Does it have a use? Yes. Using my foot to kick in a door--or my shoulder, or my back, or my head al la Mr. T back when he really was a Bad Ass--is something that is really stupid. You don't know how the door is fortified. We had a guy break his hand trying to ram a door down that was reinforced. How useful was he at the end of the day--or a minute later--when the door finally was breached?

Let's face it, we're not going to be breaching doors by ourselves. We shouldn't be anyway. If you are by yourself and the door is that locked; fuck it. Time to reassess why we are there in the first place and perhaps go home instead. Or if scouting after TEOTWAWKI, a good crowbar is a better choice. Or a window.

Mechanical means of breaching doors are always preferable to manual means if the situation develops with the time to plan. A breacher is one of those things that was developed for using on the fly; finding a door in a narrow hallway that is secured by better than normal means where a ram can not be used to full efficiency or a suspect is barricaded after a pursuit through the house and time is of the essence.

They are not meant to be used as a first line, IMO, they are a great "oh shit, it's locked" tool. Teams that use them are wearing the proper gear (most of the time) to make their use safe and effective. The training involved should be enough to forego the chance of injury to self and team members. Here in the United States, doors are pretty standard as far as how they are hung and the construction industry adheres to those standards fairly well. There's not a lot of guess work where the hing will be. That's what makes the breacher a good tool; you don't have to think much about where to dig in and set the stand off. A breacher on a single point (here's where I advocate the single point sling) that falls away from the side arm and gear (under the off arm) can be used, disposed of, and left until the action is over, freeing the user to grab the rifle, which should be hanging front and center on a modern two point sling, or clear their pistol without difficulty.

I'm not advocating the breacher as a primary use anything. But as a tool in the arsenal, why not? If you have the money to build one, if nothing else, it can sit in the safe for those moments of "check this out..."

Like the shotgun itself, as a secondary source of means to get the job done, I think that the breacher has a place in the battery. Remember; a shotgun is a useful tool because it does so many things; it just doesn't do all of them well, or effectively. But it's use can be multiplied if one is limited by law and situation.

[jeremy1391]

Well said doc!

[doc66]

LOL, thanks.

[Tperkins]

LOL, thanks.

Wow, so damn conceited.... [/sarcasm] haha.

Really good info and points. Too add, for what its worth, the majority of us would be better off using boltcutters or a hi-lift jack if for some god forsaken reason we need to cut a lock or breach a door. The only reason I have a couple breaching rounds is because with all the off-roading I do in boofuck nowhere, I always imagine being stuck between a locked fire road gate and a road that has been washed out, or something along those lines

Anyway, good info. So, since you've had a lot more experience with shotguns than me, what is your thought on VFG or AFG's on a shotgun? I picked up a Mako rail forend for my 870 for the sole purpose of a solid light mount, and decided to throw a VFG on I had laying around, and after using it at the range for awhile the other day I really liked the feel of it, sans the little extra frontal weight. Makes it more comfortable to use the light as well, with my thumb over the top resting on the momentary button on my SF G2 LED (Malkoff LED).

Only problem I have, which can be resolved with a different type of VFG, is that after repeated magnum or full recoil loads, the grip will literally be progressivley "shot off" the end of the rail. More because it's a clamp type of mount as opposed to one with a bolt/screw/ect that locks the mount into the rails.

[doc66]

You know what. I'm going to have to shoot a shotgun with both to give you an answer.

[Tperkins]

You know what. I'm going to have to shoot a shotgun with both to give you an answer.

Sounds like a good answer

So far, the only downsides I see are weight and another thing to get caught on stuff, but those same downsides apply to their use on a rifle platform, which VFG/AFG's are widely used on.

[squinty]

Well, I'd always been a fervent supporter of "double aught or go home" wrt defensive shotgun ammo, but here's an interesting Box o' truth article extolling the virtues of #1. Disappointed that he didn't actually do a penetration test or link to same, though. I mean, it's "box o' truth," right? Not "box o' I heard it from a reputable source." Still, interesting:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm

[doc66]

Well, I'd always been a fervent supporter of "double aught or go home" wrt defensive shotgun ammo, but here's an interesting Box o' truth article extolling the virtues of #1. Disappointed that he didn't actually do a penetration test or link to same, though. I mean, it's "box o' truth," right? Not "box o' I heard it from a reputable source." Still, interesting:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm

I am not a fan of the "box O truth" for various reasons.

[crypto]

LOL. Nice testing. Haven't I been saying stick with standard loads of buckshot this whole time?

No dude, you told me that I had to run this stuff:

The CTJ is a reduced recoil, reduced ricochet, controlled penetration tactical shotgun round that allows the operator to make more precise shots with the shotgun.

Dude it says right there: Tactical. How do you argue with that?!

[squinty]

Well, I'd always been a fervent supporter of "double aught or go home" wrt defensive shotgun ammo, but here's an interesting Box o' truth article extolling the virtues of #1. Disappointed that he didn't actually do a penetration test or link to same, though. I mean, it's "box o' truth," right? Not "box o' I heard it from a reputable source." Still, interesting:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot56.htm

I am not a fan of the "box O truth" for various reasons.

Are they reasons you can describe on the forum?

[crypto]

IMO, if humans were made out of plastic jugs full of water, BoT would be lots more useful.

[lokifz1]

Ive only used a ram myself. The only house with a really good fortified door was no problem he fortified it after our first visit so the french doors on the other side of the house were easy.

No shotgun round would have helped on the front door no hinges that could be reached And the steel crossbeams would have kept the door shut even if you took out the lock.

Sure they probably have a limited use but breaching shotguns and ammo are a waste of time resources and planning for preppers.

[doc66]

Sure they probably have a limited use but breaching shotguns and ammo are a waste of time resources and planning for preppers.

I would add that all specialty rounds are a waste of resources.

As for the BoT, well, the specific two that come to mind are the fragmentation of 5.56 and the 20 gauge buckshot tests. They tested the 5.56 against wall board with straight on shots when everything written about the fragmentation of the 5.56 clearly states that fragmentation occurs at angles within 25 meters. it didn't fragment and so to them (with improper testing) it was not true. They then tested a 20 gauge for patterns and were using an old Stevens (IIRC) double barrel which has two different choke patterns (one for each barrel) against a 12 gauge Mossberg and concluded that the 20 gauge was not useful as a defensive shotgun, or something like that. I'd have to look it up, but I don't want to waste my time.

They are not scientific-based testing, nor "real world" tests, simply a bunch of guys who like to shot shit in the backyard. As crypto stated, "If humans were plastic jugs..." A scientific test needs to be a controlled, repeatable, test to draw good conclusions, and testing something once, and putting it on video is not "truth," it's just You Tube.


If you want a good test of the 20 gauge, Leroy Thompson--a been there done that, guy of yesteryear--did a neat little article about a 20 gauge 870 he built and wrung out. His 20 gauge is a very good example of what can be done with that diminutive rounds. He was also the guy that Kevin Costner used as his model/inspiration in "The Bodyguard." I don't know if he still write for the gun rags, but I think he lives in the St. Louis area. You can't miss him, he's not a pretty man at all.

[Rev]

I used to think the average person had an understanding of the scientific method, but apparently I was wrong. Time to make a donation to my local school system. I just need to make sure they don't use it for the football team this time.