the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Jeriah » Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:57 pm

Shiloh wrote:
Jeriah wrote: The nice thing about shotgun cards is that they fit in M4 mag pouches. Set up your chest rig like you're running an M4, and just put loaded shotgun cards in place of the M4 mags. Nice thing is, when you get an AR later, you can use the same rig. I am not sure if the cards work well in Tacos; those are the cool kit AR mag pouch right now. I bet they work fine.
Ooooh, that's actually a good idea. So in essence once the card on the gun is empty, rip it off, throw the new one on from there and keep going?
Basically yep. Or if it's partially empty, but there is a lull, throw the partial in a dunp pouch and replace it with a full one.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:28 pm

Jeriah wrote:
Shiloh wrote:
Jeriah wrote: The nice thing about shotgun cards is that they fit in M4 mag pouches. Set up your chest rig like you're running an M4, and just put loaded shotgun cards in place of the M4 mags. Nice thing is, when you get an AR later, you can use the same rig. I am not sure if the cards work well in Tacos; those are the cool kit AR mag pouch right now. I bet they work fine.
Ooooh, that's actually a good idea. So in essence once the card on the gun is empty, rip it off, throw the new one on from there and keep going?
Basically yep. Or if it's partially empty, but there is a lull, throw the partial in a dunp pouch and replace it with a full one.
Gotcha.

Well apparently the shop sold that 870 tactical I was looking at, but they still have a metric shit-ton of shotguns to choose from. They had a 500 with ghost rings and pre-installed sllingmounts, but I can't remember the price off the top of my head. I'm going back monday to see what's up for grabs.

Also, what's the general consensus on the IAC/Hawk 982? They had one in a similar configuration to the mossberg for around $200, just wanted to hear the verdict on it before I have an "oh, shiny!" moment and buy a crap gun.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Jeriah » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:10 pm

Shiloh wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
Shiloh wrote:
Jeriah wrote: The nice thing about shotgun cards is that they fit in M4 mag pouches. Set up your chest rig like you're running an M4, and just put loaded shotgun cards in place of the M4 mags. Nice thing is, when you get an AR later, you can use the same rig. I am not sure if the cards work well in Tacos; those are the cool kit AR mag pouch right now. I bet they work fine.
Ooooh, that's actually a good idea. So in essence once the card on the gun is empty, rip it off, throw the new one on from there and keep going?
Basically yep. Or if it's partially empty, but there is a lull, throw the partial in a dunp pouch and replace it with a full one.
Gotcha.

Well apparently the shop sold that 870 tactical I was looking at, but they still have a metric shit-ton of shotguns to choose from. They had a 500 with ghost rings and pre-installed sllingmounts, but I can't remember the price off the top of my head. I'm going back monday to see what's up for grabs.

Also, what's the general consensus on the IAC/Hawk 982? They had one in a similar configuration to the mossberg for around $200, just wanted to hear the verdict on it before I have an "oh, shiny!" moment and buy a crap gun.
I am solidly a Remington/Mossberg guy. I have heard the Winchester 1300 Defender and Ithaca 37 are solid guns as well, but for me, the big two are the only pump guns I want. (Antiques aside; I mean for a modern fighting gun.)

I haven't heard anything about IAC/Hawk but that itself speaks volumes. I wouldn't take a couple random positive reviews seriously either. I stick to known quantities until a serious pro says something new is good.

A Mossberg 500 with ghost rings could be good. Are the sling mounts on the left side of the gun (assuming you're right handed)? That's where you want em. 6:00 sling mounts aren't ideal for a modern 2 point sling. Not a deal breaker as new mounts are easy. The things you want to watch with the 500 are the barrel and mag tube. If it already has the barrel length you want (again I say 18" to 18.5") and the extended mag, groovy. Because of how the barrel attaches you can't add a mag extension as easily as on a remington. But if it has the long mag, and the right barrel, it could be a good buy.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:20 pm

Jeriah wrote:
A Mossberg 500 with ghost rings could be good. Are the sling mounts on the left side of the gun (assuming you're right handed)? That's where you want em. 6:00 sling mounts aren't ideal for a modern 2 point sling. Not a deal breaker as new mounts are easy. The things you want to watch with the 500 are the barrel and mag tube. If it already has the barrel length you want (again I say 18" to 18.5") and the extended mag, groovy. Because of how the barrel attaches you can't add a mag extension as easily as on a remington. But if it has the long mag, and the right barrel, it could be a good buy.

I'm actually a lefty, but this one had the Magpul mount that sits between the stock and receiver, and it can be switched from left to right. Not sure on the mag, but the barrel was indeed 18".
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Jeriah » Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:41 pm

Shiloh wrote:
Jeriah wrote:
A Mossberg 500 with ghost rings could be good. Are the sling mounts on the left side of the gun (assuming you're right handed)? That's where you want em. 6:00 sling mounts aren't ideal for a modern 2 point sling. Not a deal breaker as new mounts are easy. The things you want to watch with the 500 are the barrel and mag tube. If it already has the barrel length you want (again I say 18" to 18.5") and the extended mag, groovy. Because of how the barrel attaches you can't add a mag extension as easily as on a remington. But if it has the long mag, and the right barrel, it could be a good buy.
I'm actually a lefty, but this one had the Magpul mount that sits between the stock and receiver, and it can be switched from left to right. Not sure on the mag, but the barrel was indeed 18".
That mounting point is good if you want a single point, no good for two points. However, Ares will sell you a fixed buttstock adapter for $15 and you should order a sling from them anyways, so it's not a big deal. There are advantages to the single point but to me the 2 point outweighs them.

It looks like 18" or 18.5" Mossbergs are inherently a 5+1 proposition. On Remington 870 you can get 6+1 with an extension. OTOH I prefer the safety position on the Mossberg.

http://www.mossberg.com/products/shotgu ... 0-tactical

I'd say if it's around $200 used, buy it. Much more and I'd keep looking. I paid $125 for mine but some rust, no ghost rings, etc.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:52 pm

Went to the gun shop today, here's what I found:

-They had two 590's with the "marine" (IE stainless) receivers/barrels, but I wasn't too jazzed about how much the forend wobbled around. They actually had another 870 with magpul furniture and ghosts, but they were asking $800 for it. :roll: However, the guy told me he could order an Express Tactical for just shy of $400, and with free shipping I'll take that. It's pretty bone stock, but I've got no problem running bead sights until I can save up for some ghost rings/rail mount. Probably having it ordered in the next day or two.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by MaconCJ7 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:58 pm

In my experience, a bead is all you need for sights on a shotgun. Best for fowl, and after a little range time, just fine for 50m with slugs. I haven't tried slugs past 50m, because... I haven't. But with the groups I get at 50m, on different platforms, 75-100m wouldn't be an issue. Buy the bare one, use it and enjoy it. Don't worry about sights unless working the bead just isn't your cup of tea.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:06 pm

MaconCJ7 wrote:In my experience, a bead is all you need for sights on a shotgun. Best for fowl, and after a little range time, just fine for 50m with slugs. I haven't tried slugs past 50m, because... I haven't. But with the groups I get at 50m, on different platforms, 75-100m wouldn't be an issue. Buy the bare one, use it and enjoy it. Don't worry about sights unless working the bead just isn't your cup of tea.
The only reason I'm looking at other sights is because frankly, my vision is complete shit. Don't get me wrong, I can use a bead if it's all I've got, but I much prefer something like a fiber optic or ring sights. Just easier on my eyes. :)
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by MaconCJ7 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:13 pm

No need to justify with me. I'm not against upgrading anything. I was just trying to save you a couple of bucks on something that's not a requirement for accuracy for normal vision. Lower than normal vision is one of the better reasons for cool guy gear. I have my prescription ballistic glasses. Costs more than a set of sights, but is cheaper than sights for multiple guns.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by LJ126 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:45 pm

Stercutus wrote:I agree on all points save one....

Ammo selection. I have seen animals and people shot with 00 buck and still have plenty of fight left in them. I have heard of many such cases also. I have never even heard of anyone hit with a slug COM putting up a struggle and never heard of a person surviving such a wound. If you know of such a case I would be curious to find out about it as I have looked in vain for several years. I know of no ballistic research publicly available on this so rely on apocryphal cases to illustrate the point.

Also slugs do not "need" a rifled barrel to be accurate up to about 125 meters. I can easily shoot 4-5 moa off hand at 100 meters with Foster slugs in several different shotguns I have. This is comparable to the rifled barreled shotguns I have. This is much better range than a 00 buckshot loading. It is also about as far any slug will shoot reliably even with a rifled barrel as the drop becomes too precipitous.

In the balance the rifle is far superior for defensive uses.
If you've seen a man continue fighting after a solid chest hit from a full load of 00 buck at a reasonable distance for the load, a slug wouldn't have done the job either. A slug and shot are the same amount of lead - the same payload: 7/8th oz. to 1 1/4 oz. for 12 gauge - hitting the target, except shot does so over a wider area (and likely damaging more bodily organs and creating multiple holes for blood loss.)

Remember, "Guns don’t kill people - blood loss and organ damage does!" (Welcome to Night Vale reference, people.)

The spreading nature of shot also makes it a more forgiving choice than a rifle or slugs in less-than-ideal situations, like low light and moving targets.

A slug is limited in that you still must hit vitals for it to be effective. A shoulder hit isn't a fight stopper, even for a slug. A shoulder hit with shot *might* put lead into their chest cavity.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:53 pm

Put in the order for the 870 tactical today. Just shy of $360, not too bad. All it needs is a sling mount and a side saddle, and I think I'll have a good start.

Also, anyone ever play around with the Rio buckshot? Seems like a pretty good deal for some "fighting" ammo.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 06, 2014 6:55 pm

Fiocchi low recoil is my go-to for cheap buck that don't suck.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Paladin1 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:00 pm

Shiloh wrote:Put in the order for the 870 tactical today. Just shy of $360, not too bad. All it needs is a sling mount and a side saddle, and I think I'll have a good start.

Also, anyone ever play around with the Rio buckshot? Seems like a pretty good deal for some "fighting" ammo.
I bought a few hundred rounds when it was on sale, did not pattern that well in my Saiga 12, but it was cylinder bore. I have not patterned it in my 930spx w/light mod choke. It's on the to do list.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:28 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Fiocchi low recoil is my go-to for cheap buck that don't suck.
I've heard some people say not to bother with low-recoil loads as they limit the penetration/potential range of shot. But to me, it doesn't seem like -150/200 fps is gonna change much. I'll pick up some of that next time I see it around.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:13 pm

Shiloh wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Fiocchi low recoil is my go-to for cheap buck that don't suck.
I've heard some people say not to bother with low-recoil loads as they limit the penetration/potential range of shot. But to me, it doesn't seem like -150/200 fps is gonna change much. I'll pick up some of that next time I see it around.
Most buckshot far exceeds FBI standards. Winchester #00 is like 21" so losing a little won't matter much. Also low recoil patterns tighter, which if you're tracking the shotguns for zombies thread and testing, you'll note that "standard" loads don't remain very accurate past 10m with combat shotguns.

I'm willing to be demonstrated wrong by data but from what I've seen your shot spread will cut your effective range long before muzzle velocity does.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:15 pm

Shiloh wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Fiocchi low recoil is my go-to for cheap buck that don't suck.
I've heard some people say not to bother with low-recoil loads as they limit the penetration/potential range of shot. But to me, it doesn't seem like -150/200 fps is gonna change much. I'll pick up some of that next time I see it around.
Most buckshot far exceeds FBI standards. Winchester #00 is like 21" so losing a little won't matter much. Also low recoil patterns tighter, which if you're tracking the shotguns for zombies thread and testing, you'll note that "standard" loads don't remain very accurate past 10m with combat shotguns.

I'm willing to be demonstrated wrong by data but from what I've seen your shot spread will cut your effective range long before muzzle velocity does.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Jeriah » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:19 pm

Now that my pump guns are set up, I've got this to deal with...

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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by LJ126 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 12:11 pm

Doctorr Fabulous wrote:
Shiloh wrote:
Doctorr Fabulous wrote:Fiocchi low recoil is my go-to for cheap buck that don't suck.
I've heard some people say not to bother with low-recoil loads as they limit the penetration/potential range of shot. But to me, it doesn't seem like -150/200 fps is gonna change much. I'll pick up some of that next time I see it around.
Most buckshot far exceeds FBI standards. Winchester #00 is like 21" so losing a little won't matter much. Also low recoil patterns tighter, which if you're tracking the shotguns for zombies thread and testing, you'll note that "standard" loads don't remain very accurate past 10m with combat shotguns.

I'm willing to be demonstrated wrong by data but from what I've seen your shot spread will cut your effective range long before muzzle velocity does.
This, I definitely concur with the good Doc.

"Low recoil" is a bit of a misnomer, too. It's hardly low in the recoil department. If you're running hundreds of dirty husks through your ejection port over a couple of afternoons you'll notice the bump, despite it being "low recoil."
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Shiloh » Tue Nov 11, 2014 12:35 pm

Gun should be in thursday or friday, and I ordered 75 rounds of 00 plus the magpul sling mount. My bank account hates me.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by doc66 » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:51 pm

I'm glad to see that this thread has a life without me... it's always nice when your kids are all raised up.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by clarence » Sat Jan 10, 2015 2:25 am

Thanks to this thread, just ordered a Benelli Nova Pump Compact (20 gauge).

I'll probably bob the barrel to 18" (nearest vent rib), add a fiber optic front sight, two-point sling, and shotgun cards, and stock some #3 shot and rifled slugs.

Not sure what I'll do with it, but it completes the collection.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by praharin » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:39 am

clarence wrote:shotgun cards, and stock some #3 shot and rifled slugs.
#3 buck, I hope
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by Mrbeefy » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:57 pm

LJ126 wrote:
Stercutus wrote:I agree on all points save one....

Ammo selection. I have seen animals and people shot with 00 buck and still have plenty of fight left in them. I have heard of many such cases also. I have never even heard of anyone hit with a slug COM putting up a struggle and never heard of a person surviving such a wound. If you know of such a case I would be curious to find out about it as I have looked in vain for several years. I know of no ballistic research publicly available on this so rely on apocryphal cases to illustrate the point.

Also slugs do not "need" a rifled barrel to be accurate up to about 125 meters. I can easily shoot 4-5 moa off hand at 100 meters with Foster slugs in several different shotguns I have. This is comparable to the rifled barreled shotguns I have. This is much better range than a 00 buckshot loading. It is also about as far any slug will shoot reliably even with a rifled barrel as the drop becomes too precipitous.

In the balance the rifle is far superior for defensive uses.
If you've seen a man continue fighting after a solid chest hit from a full load of 00 buck at a reasonable distance for the load, a slug wouldn't have done the job either. A slug and shot are the same amount of lead - the same payload: 7/8th oz. to 1 1/4 oz. for 12 gauge - hitting the target, except shot does so over a wider area (and likely damaging more bodily organs and creating multiple holes for blood loss.)

Remember, "Guns don’t kill people - blood loss and organ damage does!" (Welcome to Night Vale reference, people.)

The spreading nature of shot also makes it a more forgiving choice than a rifle or slugs in less-than-ideal situations, like low light and moving targets.

A slug is limited in that you still must hit vitals for it to be effective. A shoulder hit isn't a fight stopper, even for a slug. A shoulder hit with shot *might* put lead into their chest cavity.
My theory regarding buckshot: I believe it's the overloading of the central nervous system with nerve pain that results in incapacitation. I hunt with 12 gauge 2 3/4 00 buckshot. I made a kill on a doe at about 20 paces with my single shot, modified choke. There were no vitals hits to speak of. She dropped in her tracks and gave some kicks then expired. A small buck I shot at maybe 5 paces, I aimed at his head and the pattern from my 20" barrel open choke tore up his head and neck. Dropped in his tracks. Again, no vital hits other than his carotids being exploded. The pellets that hit his head glanced off of his skull and exited.

Granted these are deer not humans and being game animals, behave differently under duress. I'd think being shot all over would change a person's mind real quick.

Also, fighting distances inside one's home must be considered. In my small home, my living room is the largest at only 12 feet by 12 feet. No hallways, the most I could expect is a 6" pattern coming from my 18" barrel open choke HD shotgun.
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Re: the Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

Post by praharin » Sun Jan 25, 2015 1:54 pm

Jeriah wrote: Of course you can shoot cheap low-brass target loads for practice, and one could argue you don't need the same size stockpile for a shotgun as you do for a carbine. Shotgun fanboys will tell you that that's because one shot from a shotgun is like nine from a rifle. I'd say it's because you're unlikely to survive long enough to run 1,000 combat rounds through your shotgun.
I'd say if you're getting in regular gunfights you're unlikely to use your 1000 round stock of carbine ammo too. If you're routinely assaulted, and end up slowly going through it successfully, you are probably also able to find more, somehow.






The versatility of the shotgun is a myth, if we eliminate sporting applications. Anything a shotgun will do a rifle will do just as well except maybe wing shooting. With a few rare exceptions, people can't shoot flying birds with a rifle. That said, I never experienced a situation where I needed to shoot a flying bird. I've actually had many times when I had to literally kick a game bird that thought it was hiding from me so I could be "sporting" about killing it with a shotgun. Had I killed it on the ground with a 22 I wouldn't have had to spit out all those BBs
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