Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Lodewijk » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:46 pm

AUA wrote:
Kutter_0311 wrote:
I was a journalist for two years and this would be far more accurate:

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Everyone under the age of respirator played Goldeneye.

Also I swear to fucking god everything is military-style this and high-powered repeating rifle that. AP style is so relentlessly dumb. I'm glad I never spent the money on an AP guide, because most of it was wrong, anyway.

(to explain the crossbow, that was a big hunting issue in my neck of Adams County, PA once upon a time).

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by ei8htx » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:14 pm

PP7, that brings back memories

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by SpetsNazGRU » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:26 am

MaxRite wrote:Professional soldiers in various SpN, SOBR and CT teams want professional grade equipment. And they want it now, not when Russian industry manages to cough something up. And evil baby-eating drunken Serdyukov is doing something no other MO minister done before - giving the fighting troops what they want.
Do you really think that most Russian troops want their trusty, rugged AK-74Ms replaced with some kind of prissy, overly-complicated, Western assault rifle that needs to be babied and cleaned every time you look at it? I mean, I can seen spetsnaz units willing to adapt and use certain specialized weapons for specific missions, but regular troops? I don't know...

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Einher » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:40 am

MaxRite wrote:
squinty wrote:
Russia's Defense Minister, Anatoly Serdyukov, set off a firestorm of debate in Russia after saying that his military's pride and joy, the Kalashnikov and Dragunov SVDs sniper rifles, are "morally outdated" and that he's considering a plan to buy foreign-made small arms.
What does "morally outdated" mean, exactly?
Its a literal translation of a Russian idiom that is stupid to begin with. But at least if you speak the language you know what it means and that it has nothing to do with actual morals or morality. The interpreter assumed that English has same idiom with similar meaning and translated verbatim.
Einherjrar wrote:I think Serdyukov's use of 'Morally Outdated' isn't the best translation of his intended message.
I think the intention of the original statement was meant to say that the 'Original Intended Use of the Kalashnikov is outdated' (conscription of peasant masses and cheap foreign arms proliferation).

I also think Shirayev's reference to other systems competing on the same 'integrity level' as the kalashnikov is a reference to reliable ammunition cycling.

With all this talk about a firearms 'morals' and 'integrity' you'd think the topic was about a politician...
I reiterate my interpretation;

It was clear to me that whoever was translating didn't have the most sophisticated grasp of the actual intent of the delivered messages, and interpreted words directly (which is not necessarily the correct usage).
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by 1_v8_Merc » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:00 am

Imagine if the Russias were fighting over in Iraq.
Everytime a soldier kills a taliban, they would be like "oh sweet, ammo!"

It would cost their military nothing in ammo! Or guns...

I like my AK, wouldn't trade it for the biggest fanciest assault rifle on the market.
It's just simple, and goes "waapowwiiieee" every time!

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by xLionx » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:03 am

1_v8_Merc wrote:Imagine if the Russias were fighting over in Iraq.
Everytime a soldier kills a taliban, they would be like "oh sweet, ammo!"

It would cost their military nothing in ammo! Or guns...

I like my AK, wouldn't trade it for the biggest fanciest assault rifle on the market.
It's just simple, and goes "waapowwiiieee" every time!
but the real question is, would they still need to carry a back up SKS?

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Einher » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:07 am

1_v8_Merc wrote:Imagine if the Russias were fighting over in Iraq.
Everytime a soldier kills a taliban, they would be like "oh sweet, ammo!"

It would cost their military nothing in ammo! Or guns...

I like my AK, wouldn't trade it for the biggest fanciest assault rifle on the market.
It's just simple, and goes "waapowwiiieee" every time!
hehe, not to harp on the subject, but maybe those same soldiers would be scratching their heads wondering why there are 10 different types of ammo/brands of manufacturer in each magazine they captured;

http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/ ... ksmanship/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Using captured ammunition is only a good idea if your opponents actually have munition worth using.

You wouldn't believe the kinds of myths about marksmanship that circulate in other countries.
It's like only a few nations in the world emphasize and understand the principles of true marksmanship, even among their military.
It's absolutely crazy.

I could tell you stories I've heard from contract employee's who worked for a time in lebanon, and it's some pretty hilarious stuff.
полиция wrote:Полицейский инструктировал меня, что если убьеш грабителя у себя дома то надо вложить ему в руку нож или иное орудие преступления до того как пришли полицейские, иначе могут самого хозяина дома посадить за убийство.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by RickOShea » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:30 am

"Beirut offhand"?..... If Allah wills it.... :D
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:13 am

1_v8_Merc wrote:Imagine if the Russias were fighting over in Iraq.
Everytime a soldier kills a taliban, they would be like "oh sweet, ammo!"

It would cost their military nothing in ammo! Or guns...

I like my AK, wouldn't trade it for the biggest fanciest assault rifle on the market.
It's just simple, and goes "waapowwiiieee" every time!
I imagine it would be more like "Holy shit! What is a Taliban doing in Iraq?"

And then disappointment when they find he is carrying half a dirty magazine with ammo that is corroded from being stored in sewage pond.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by J.C. » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:52 am

xLionx wrote:
1_v8_Merc wrote:Imagine if the Russias were fighting over in Iraq.
Everytime a soldier kills a taliban, they would be like "oh sweet, ammo!"

It would cost their military nothing in ammo! Or guns...

I like my AK, wouldn't trade it for the biggest fanciest assault rifle on the market.
It's just simple, and goes "waapowwiiieee" every time!
but the real question is, would they still need to carry a back up SKS?
Yes they would, because Russians don't use rifles chambered in 7.62x39.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by tarzan » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:18 pm

I have to point out the hypocrisy of those who seem to be proponents of replacing infantry rifle systems every 20 years with that fact that many of these same individuals are the same folks bemoaning a return to a 100 year old pistol and cartridge design because it works.
(M1911A1) Which is exactly why the Russians should stick to the Kalashnikov design.
The old, if it ain't broke, don't fix it comes into play.
In a future world, where resources come into shorter supply, then people will see which weapon system is more efficient.
By that I mean in terms of production, maintenance and repairs.
Efficiency is the art of maximizing expenditure of energy and resources to perform a set amount of work. From that standpoint, the AK is more efficient than the Stoner weapons. They also don't require the sophisticated manufacturing equipment and raw materials to produce. If they go bang when you pull the trigger and your opponent drops dead, that is the purpose of said weapon system.
As fuel becomes more scarce, and as manufacturing becomes more decentralized, the entire manufacturing capablities of the world become so fragile that any disruption could lead to a serious downgrading of a military force extremely dependent upon the latest geewhiz, gollygosh, whizbang technologies and weapons systems.
In that era, the peasants rifle, cobbled together out of mud huts by blacksmiths, will rule the day.
Kind of hard to put together an Eotech sight or a pair of night vision binoculars in the same conditions.
I am not so sure the folks who are still using the Kalashnikov weapons systems are not actually exhibiting more long range planning and foresight than the technophiles of western military doctrine.

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Stercutus » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:43 pm

Yes they would, because Russians don't use rifles chambered in 7.62x39.
Actually they still use lots of AKs in the old cartridge. Just not for their front line or infantry units.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Paladin1 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:57 pm

pyratemime wrote:Or not. You tend to have major trade issues when you buy some samples and then start producing the item wholesale domestically. Russia has suspended several arms deals to China over the Su-27 copies. With Russian need to buy larger weapon systems, like the Mistral, one of the last things they want to do is establish a reputation for copying and producing designs. This will either drive the price and/or quantity required for sales deals or close off certain counties/advanced designs that they would be interested in.
So your contention is that there is no copying of other countries products? :lol:

There is no national level espionage, no corporate spying, no copyright infringement, no stealing of technology, no black market, etc?

Umm...OK.
WWSD?

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by MaxRite » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:33 pm

Blacksmith wrote:
Yes they would, because Russians don't use rifles chambered in 7.62x39.
Actually they still use lots of AKs in the old cartridge. Just not for their front line or infantry units.
That's... not... entirely...accurate. And by saying that, I mean you are both wrong. :) The more front-line and "elite" the unit of the Russian military is, the more leeway and freedom they have choosing their weapons. Some soldiers choose 7,62x39 AKM and AKMS for the heavier round or because they are used to that weapon. Some soldiers in Chechnya chose AKM/S because they fought with it in A-stan. If you look through photos from the Five Day War in Georgia, you'll see some guys with 7,62 rifles.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by pyratemime » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:35 pm

Paladin1 wrote:
pyratemime wrote:Or not. You tend to have major trade issues when you buy some samples and then start producing the item wholesale domestically. Russia has suspended several arms deals to China over the Su-27 copies. With Russian need to buy larger weapon systems, like the Mistral, one of the last things they want to do is establish a reputation for copying and producing designs. This will either drive the price and/or quantity required for sales deals or close off certain counties/advanced designs that they would be interested in.
So your contention is that there is no copying of other countries products? :lol:

There is no national level espionage, no corporate spying, no copyright infringement, no stealing of technology, no black market, etc?

Umm...OK.
Hmmm... that bold part seems to speak directly to the issues with stealing technology and copyright infringement. I never argued that is doesn't exist only that there is a major price to pay for doing it. In this case having the arms supplies they are relying on canceling the sales they are making the same way they did with the Chinese.

As far as espionage goes it is rather outside the bounds of my post.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Dave_M » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:54 pm

If the AK versus AR shit continues I'll lock this thread. Cut that shit out.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:55 pm

Several people have already mentioned it, but if the Russian Military were going to switch to something else besides the AK-74 then they would have done so already and switched to the AN-94 (*Click*).

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Video on AN-94 Abakan (*Click*)

With the Russian Military the issue of National Pride has always come into play after the Russian Revolution. I seriously doubt that they're going to adopt something that is not natively designed and manufactured...it's just not gonna happen.

Plus in switching to a completely different standard Military rifle other issues come into play besides small design improvements. If anything cost is the major issue and can Russia really afford such a switch from an economic standpoint? Especially since they currently aren't having any major difficulties with anyone else. The other question is does the new rifle that they're considering really offer dramatic improvements over the AK-74? So far the answer to that question has been...'NO!.

Then there's the issue of training everyone and getting them up to speed on the new design.

I just don't see any of this happening.

The idea of cheap AK's and cheap AK parts kits sound great, but with the way things are going even if this did happen the US Govt. probably wouldn't approve the application to import them anyway.

Sorry to be a joykill....but it's true.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Paladin1 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:04 pm

^^^Browning35 has it summed up nicely^^^
WWSD?

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by AKFTW » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:07 pm

The AN-94 is overly complex and completely un-ergonomic anyway. The sights are apparently horrible and the only improvement over the AK-74 is the 2-shot burst mode (which is cool, but not THAT cool). That's why it has stayed as a special-purpose rifle, since the average grunt is not going to make use of it's advantage.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Paladin1 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:18 pm

pyratemime wrote:
Paladin1 wrote:
pyratemime wrote:Or not. You tend to have major trade issues when you buy some samples and then start producing the item wholesale domestically. Russia has suspended several arms deals to China over the Su-27 copies. With Russian need to buy larger weapon systems, like the Mistral, one of the last things they want to do is establish a reputation for copying and producing designs. This will either drive the price and/or quantity required for sales deals or close off certain counties/advanced designs that they would be interested in.
So your contention is that there is no copying of other countries products? :lol:

There is no national level espionage, no corporate spying, no copyright infringement, no stealing of technology, no black market, etc?

Umm...OK.
Hmmm... that bold part seems to speak directly to the issues with stealing technology and copyright infringement. I never argued that is doesn't exist only that there is a major price to pay for doing it. In this case having the arms supplies they are relying on canceling the sales they are making the same way they did with the Chinese.

As far as espionage goes it is rather outside the bounds of my post.
OK, I don't want to argue about it. I rather light heartily said they should buy a SIGx39 and copy it and you stated they wouldn't do such a thing.

I think history has shown that exact kind of thing happens all the time, trade deals or no. In fact there is talk that the new Chinese jet has American tech in it. http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/23/china ... -downed-u/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Of course there is a stream of complaining, suits, and threats back and forth constantly over it.
WWSD?

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by J.C. » Sun Jan 23, 2011 3:20 pm

I do not think you need any special permit to import demilled kits. That is why they exist...they are not firearms.

But I agree it is very unlikely they would switch and there is nothing to suggest they are likely too...just one politician running his mouth does not a new national policy make.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Browning 35 » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:04 pm

Paladin1 wrote:^^^Browning35 has it summed up nicely^^^
Thank you. :D
AKFTW wrote:The AN-94 is overly complex and completely un-ergonomic anyway. The sights are apparently horrible and the only improvement over the AK-74 is the 2-shot burst mode (which is cool, but not THAT cool). That's why it has stayed as a special-purpose rifle, since the average grunt is not going to make use of it's advantage.
Have you ever actually fired an AN-94???

If so when and under what circumstances?
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Evan the Diplomat wrote:Why do you want to shoot penguins? What did they ever do to you?
It's that smug, superior attitude of theirs, strutting around in their fancy outfits like they're better than everyone else. Yeah, burn in hell, you snobbish bird bastards.

And don't get me started on pandas!

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by AKFTW » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:10 pm

NO I have not fired an AN-94 but based on several articles I have read about it that all mentioned those things, I would have to conclude that those may be problem areas with the rifle. The guy who runs World.guns.ru HAS fired the AN-94 and has those things to say about it. The sides are a weird pinwheel aperture thing that apparently gets blocked by dirt easily, and the pistol grip is just an AK grip tilted even more vertically.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by xLionx » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:14 pm

Browning 35 wrote:
The idea of cheap AK's and cheap AK parts kits sound great, but with the way things are going even if this did happen the US Govt. probably wouldn't approve the application to import them anyway.

Sorry to be a joykill....but it's true.

Just want to point out, just cuz the US won't import them doesn't mean other countries won't, other countries that would be importing otherparts that were made not in russia that the US would import, that now are not being bought by those other countires and need to be sold somewhere

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