Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

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Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Stercutus » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:32 am

And no I ain't trolling either....

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... -famed-ak/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Russian Defense Minister Causes Uproar With Call to Replace Famed AK-47

By Justin Fishel

Published January 21, 2011

| FoxNews.com

Russia's Defense Minister, Anatoly Serdyukov, set off a firestorm of debate in Russia after saying that his military's pride and joy, the Kalashnikov and Dragunov SVDs sniper rifles, are "morally outdated" and that he's considering a plan to buy foreign-made small arms.

The comments were made during a private meeting with members of the lower house of Russia’s parliament just before the New Year, according to Russian media accounts. Serdyukov introduced the plan to buy foreign-made guns as part of larger military reforms that include buying French-made Mistrall Class helicopter carriers for the Russian navy.

The comments caused Russian military officials to jump to the defense of their workhorse weapons.

Kalishnikov rifles, particularly the AK-47, are a proud Russian creation. Built and designed in Russia during World War II, the AK-47 is considered the first true assault rifle. They’re known around the world for their durability in all conditions, firing reliability, ease of use, low production cost and lethality. Military lore holds that an AK-47 can be buried in the mud, dug up a year later and still be fired.

For those reasons it's become a staple for terrorist and insurgent groups around the world. The Russian military began using the AK-47 over six decades ago, and very little has changed since about them.

Criticism of the Defense Minister has come from all angles. The Russian news website, Pravda.ru, quotes prominent gun designer Dmitry Shirayev as saying:

"Foreigners admit that Russian small arms are one of the best in the world. Just show me a foreign rifle which would compete with a Russian one on all specifications, including the integrity level,” Shirayev is quoted as saying. “The main problem here is that Russia does not have anyone to work in the gun-making industry because of low salaries. Purchasing small arms from abroad can entirely destroy the industry in Russia."

Sergei Clussky, a former member of the Russian special forces told Pravda that Serdyukov was speaking out of turn.

"The sitting Russian defense minister is not a military man - this is the problem. How can he judge the advantages and disadvantages of this or that type of weapon? The people who do not have an expert opinion in such questions should not make such important decisions," the Web site quotes him as saying.

Clussky, who once commanded a counter-terror unit, goes as far as to defend the rifle as the terrorist's weapon of choice.

"Terrorists from the Caucasus always use Kalashnikovs and SVDs,” Clussky said. “The funding, which they receive from abroad, gives them a very good opportunity to receive American and French small arms. They often use foreign-made communication systems at times, but they most frequently, if not always, use Russian-made rifles."

Fox News military analyst and retired Maj. Gen. Bob Scales says it not surprising the Russian would be looking for a better weapon, but that no should expect them to “buy American” anytime soon.

"The AK-47 is outdated because of it’s not an accurate weapon,” Scales said. “What I suspect is the Russian are looking for something that's a little bit more refined, a little bit more versatile, more accurate -- and their willing to sacrifice what the AK-47 brought in 1947."

Scales says an accuracy target of 400 meters is not good enough for modern day warfare. The gold standard for weapons in the West is the American M-4, which is accurate to 600 meters and beyond.

But Scales said it's more likely the Russians would look toward something else, like the equally superior German G-1 or the smaller French and British 5.56 rifles. The Israeli Galils, also an unlikely purchase for the Russians, are said to combine the best of western accuracy with AK 47 durability.

The bottom line, Scales says, is that a weapon is not just a piece of technology, it's a statement of the military culture.

“The American philosophy has always been that every rifle is a precision instrument involving the latest technology,” Scales said. But, in Russia it’s the exact opposite. “It has to be a people's weapon. It has to be a weapon that any school aged youth can assemble and dissemble, that any peasant can learn to shoot in 10 to 15 minutes. That’s been the ethos of the Russian military.”

And with 110 million Kalashnikovs produced to date, it’s unlikely they'll disappear anytime soon.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01 ... z1BkrdixvD" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now I am thinking... there are a lot of good reasons to replace the AK. But for morals reasons? Are you frickin' kidding me? Are the Russians trying to go cuddly on us all the sudden?
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:56 am

I don't see this happening...
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:03 am

Well considering they haven't used the AK-47 since what, the 50's when they started using stamped recievers? Then 74' when they switched calibers.

And no, Russia is too proud of the Kalashnikov design (Rightly So) to let it go anytime soon I think.

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Nesrath » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:20 am

If they are so proud of the AK47/74 why are they trying so hard to make it emulate the M4? It is a good, but very outdated design.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:23 am

Nesrath wrote:If they are so proud of the AK47/74 why are they trying so hard to make it emulate the M4? It is a good, but very outdated design.
Honestly, just because something has rails on it doesn't mean they are trying to emulate an M4. Rails for red dot and light, Oh but wait I have an AK so I'm not allowed have those.

They are trying to improve a weapon system. Even the m16 needed improvements, that's why we have gone through 4 versions of it.

Traditionalism is okay on some things, but on things that people depend their lives on, not good.

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Nesrath » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:27 am

At least replace the AK's for the full time/front line troops with something designed in the last 10 years.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Cpt. MelonBuster » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:33 am

Nesrath wrote:At least replace the AK's for the full time/front line troops with something designed in the last 10 years.
Well then I guess we should replace our M4/M16s too? They've been around almost as long as the AK has.

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Nesrath » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:41 am

Yes we should. Every 20 years they should have FAIR trials for a new rifle and round that meets the current needs of the US Military. Stop fighting wars past.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by DarkAxel » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:04 am

On a plus note, if the Russkies DO abandon the AK platform, then the surplus market will probably benefit the most. $80 AKs, anyone?
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Nesrath » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:17 am

darkaxel wrote:On a plus note, if the Russkies DO abandon the AK platform, then the surplus market will probably benefit the most. $80 AKs, anyone?
What I am hoping for! :lol:
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Einher » Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:22 am

darkaxel wrote:On a plus note, if the Russkies DO abandon the AK platform, then the surplus market will probably benefit the most. $80 AKs, anyone?
It'll never happen.

You'd have better luck convincing China to give up their domestically produced QBZ rifles and 5.8mm ammo.

The most powerful world nations measure their cocks by different standards than a mere person;
National pride will prevent another system from being adopted if nothing else.

Rest assured, the Kalashnikov rifle system isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

It'll be interesting if this announcement might spark a change in russian firearms manufacturing philosophy though.

EDIT(ed) to add: I think Serdyukov's use of 'Morally Outdated' isn't the best translation of his intended message.
I think the intention of the original statement was meant to say that the 'Original Intended Use of the Kalashnikov is outdated' (conscription of peasant masses and cheap foreign arms proliferation).

I also think Shirayev's reference to other systems competing on the same 'integrity level' as the kalashnikov is a reference to reliable ammunition cycling.

With all this talk about a firearms 'morals' and 'integrity' you'd think the topic was about a politician...
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by J.C. » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:16 am

Guys you are missing the whole point.

Surplus Russian AK-100 kits! SCHWING
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Liff » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:50 am

Obvious troll is obvious. Me in this case.

So in the AK vs AR debate, even the Russians vote "Not AK", and "Lets emulate the M4"?

I am going to be laughing for a long time about this.

No need to feed the troll.

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by pyratemime » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:52 am

Einherjrar wrote:It'll be interesting if this announcement might spark a change in russian firearms manufacturing philosophy though.

EDIT(ed) to add: I think Serdyukov's use of 'Morally Outdated' isn't the best translation of his intended message.
I think the intention of the original statement was meant to say that the 'Original Intended Use of the Kalashnikov is outdated' (conscription of peasant masses and cheap foreign arms proliferation).

I also think Shirayev's reference to other systems competing on the same 'integrity level' as the kalashnikov is a reference to reliable ammunition cycling.

With all this talk about a firearms 'morals' and 'integrity' you'd think the topic was about a politician...
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As far as whether or not they make the change I think revolves solely on whether Putin wants the change or not. That man has an iron grip on Russian politics and society. If he says make the change you can rest assured that the media will start to sing the praises of a new rifle and the Duma will back him to the hilt.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Kommander » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:59 am

Nesrath wrote:Yes we should. Every 20 years they should have FAIR trials for a new rifle and round that meets the current needs of the US Military. Stop fighting wars past.
Both the US and Russia have over the years developed and tested rifles that were better than what they were currently issuing. The problem is that the new rifles were simply not good enough to justify the cost of replacing the old ones. Given modern procurement methods having your military switch rifles every 20 years would be an absolute nightmare. This is why the Russians never adopted the AN-94 and why despite major pushes from various political forces over the last 10 years the AR has yet to be replaced.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by TEC9man » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:08 am

Like my pappy taught me, if it aint broke don't stop using it. I think it would be a mistake to stop using the AK based tech. If anything change it towards the Galil version of the AK, best of both worlds. AK toughness with accuracy!
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Gingerbread Man » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:17 am

I can see this happening. Easily. The Chinese dumped the AK and it's ammo.
They have a compact assault rifle, an assault rifle, a LMG and DMR all in the same caliber.
I'm not sure but the Chinese .mil maybe bigger than the Russian .mil.
Is the replacement better than the AK, I don't know but I bet they have figured out that the AK has serious flaws in it's design. Chiefly the safety and the large opening that allows debris into the action. I love my AKs but if I were in a war environment, no way.
I'm not an AK hater, I have 3. I'm just practical in my analysis.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by raptor » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:07 am

I love it the AK vs. AR debate inside of a government. :lol: :lol:

Russia has been buying foreign made arms. For instance they are having 2 amphibious ships made in France.


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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:16 am

This is probably Russia's way of strong arming their arms industry to stop using the old AK47 design. :lol: I'm not sure a bullpup would work for a conscript army but, it would give Russia an "edge" over everyone using traditional designs. (politically of course)

I still think the AN-94 should be adopted. If Russia adopts an M16 I'll start believing the tin foil hat guys about a Russian invasion of the middle east. :shock:
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by Boris » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:22 am

I know next to nothing about the AK platform, but is there something inherently wrong about moving the rear sight back to the end of the receiver? Seems like this would help with accuracy. I've always thought it was too far forward.
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by VeniVidiVici » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:26 am

Boris wrote:I know next to nothing about the AK platform, but is there something inherently wrong about moving the rear sight back to the end of the receiver? Seems like this would help with accuracy. I've always thought it was too far forward.
It's been done on Galils and Valmet rifles, I don't know why Russia didn't move it back when they switched to the AK-74. :?:

Maybe Russia is planning to hold a cometition for a rifle, get entries from around the world, and then reverse engineer a cheaper soldier proof weapon. It would save them a lot in R&D. :mrgreen:
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by SpetsNazGRU » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:30 am

This is just something that another one in the long line of clueless Russian defense ministers blurted out after too much vodka. The military still loves and trusts these weapons and would have a very hard time learning to depend on something else. I mean, look what happened in Georgia when they re-equipped their elite troops with M4s: when the Russian shit hit the fan in South Ossetia, those Georgian soldier abandoned those M4s and grabbed their trusty old AK-74s.

Then again, maybe after having captured hundreds of shiny new M4s, the Russians have fallen in love with that platform. :)

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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by AKFTW » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:35 am

They tried this already with the AN-94. It was even "officially" adopted. HOW many AN-94s do you see in line units? Seriously. The AK is a fine weapon for infantry combat within typically encountered ranges, and even better in the Urban Warfare environment of today. And for the record they haven't used the "AK-47" since 1959 :lol: I think if they tried to replace it there would be a TON of backlash from troops, it is a well-loved rifle that soldiers trust. And not to mention export, the Chinese still crank out TONS of Type 56 rifles every year for export. They will NEVER replace the AK series. Even if they try to. There are just TOO many of them :mrgreen:
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Re: Russia Considering Replacing Ak-47 With Imported Rifle

Post by CaptainRW » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:38 am

Nesrath wrote:
darkaxel wrote:On a plus note, if the Russkies DO abandon the AK platform, then the surplus market will probably benefit the most. $80 AKs, anyone?
What I am hoping for! :lol:
Never going to happen.. Nope, Nadda, No... Why can't be imported as is, BATF&E isn't going to C&R it this century, and speaking of Century, they might do more and cheaper one's with there receivers and barrels.. 80 for a kit, maybe, with no barrel, receiver or trunnion.. BUT those, from Romania are under 100 now...

Now that said, Russia can't pay it's military now, as it is... Their navy is in shambles.. They can't afford to do it in any real numbers...
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