The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Hoppy » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:14 pm

nimdabew wrote:
Haji wrote:
TiN stands for titanium nitrate right?
Titanium nitride.
I was close... Kinda. I saw the option for a Tin BCG at Del-Ton, and thought to myself, Tin isn't that strong... What the fuck are they thinking?

AHAHAHA

theres some guys in the back melting down old cans to make BCG. dont you know an alluminum AR upper is layer after layer of alluminum foil glued together :P
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by nimdabew » Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:51 pm

Hoppy wrote:
nimdabew wrote:
Haji wrote:
TiN stands for titanium nitrate right?
Titanium nitride.
I was close... Kinda. I saw the option for a Tin BCG at Del-Ton, and thought to myself, Tin isn't that strong... What the fuck are they thinking?

AHAHAHA

theres some guys in the back melting down old cans to make BCG. dont you know an alluminum AR upper is layer after layer of alluminum foil glued together :P
The way it was written in their description made it seem like it was a normal BCG with a layer of tin on top of it. I couldn't believe it but Titanium Nitride sounds more plausable.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Mr. E. Monkey » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:39 pm

nimdabew wrote:
Haji wrote:
TiN stands for titanium nitrate right?
Titanium nitride.
I was close... Kinda. I saw the option for a Tin BCG at Del-Ton, and thought to myself, Tin isn't that strong... What the fuck are they thinking?
Phew...I'm glad I'm not the only one! :lol:
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by gordon_freeman » Wed Aug 12, 2009 3:56 pm

For a fighting carbine.

1. Reliability is everything.
2. Accuracy is nice to have too
3. All hardware is optional depending on needs. "Amateurs talk hardware, professionals talk software".

My philosophy is that you should build your carbine on your needs, and not on what others think is cool or fashionable.

The top rifle I have in this picture is my fighting/fun rifle. I wanted a light, optic, and i wanted the rifle to be light weight. There is a hefty premium for buying lightweight/durable/accurate though. Noveske chrome lined N4 with Noveske BCG, Magpul stock/grip, Geiselle SSA two stage combat trigger (forged hammers FTW), Daniel Defense Omega Rail, M4-2K suppressor mount, Aimpoint T-1 with Larue mount, Surefire G2 with TNVC 265 lumen bulb in a VTAC polymer mount.

I use it for rifle league (indoors shooting). The bottom rifle is my precision and new practical rifle rifle (10-250 yards). Picture below it is incomplete. I've added a 1 o clock daniel defense mini red-dot mount ($40) and will be running a mini red dot as soon as funds allow.

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by bookshop » Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:32 am

Someone quoted this entire article over at The High Road (or was it Firing Line?) not claiming it was their own but thought you might like to know. Hilariously it turned into a ARs are the Awesome thread.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Zoltan » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:56 am

Question:

If I purchase one of those really nice BCM BCGs, I will not need to upgrade the extractor and spring right?
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by gordon_freeman » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:59 am

Zoltan wrote:Questions:

If I purchase one of those really nice BCM BCGs, I will not need to upgrad the extractor and spring right?
Correct.

I don't bother with "upgrading" extractor springs/inserts until something goes wrong. Just the O-ring by itself increases extractor tension significantly. I still have a pack of BCM extractor springs in my spare parts kits though.

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by mr.trooper » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:09 pm

Thanks Dave: its about GD time someone said this.

I'm so farking sick of seeing safe-queens with every Tapco and NcStar product on the market strapped to its quad rails... plus a bipod.

My AR-15 weighs 6 pounds... Someday I may mount a Micro-aimpoint. maybe.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by nimdabew » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:37 pm

mr.trooper wrote:Thanks Dave: its about GD time someone said this.

I'm so farking sick of seeing safe-queens with every Tapco and NcStar product on the market strapped to its quad rails... plus a bipod.

My AR-15 weighs 6 pounds... Someday I may mount a Micro-aimpoint. maybe.
Is that with or without full magazine? My light weight carbine right now only has a MOE handguard, and a CTR stock that is not stock. Well that and the aimpoint. I need to get a fish scale or something to find out how much it weighs. I am sure the super market won't appreciate me bringing that into the store to use the veggie scales...
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Mechanik » Fri Aug 14, 2009 10:04 am

TDW586 wrote: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key= ... rgTA&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

should answer your question.
Ok forgive the n00b questions and feedback, as I'm still working up to my first AR purchase...

Looking at the chart, I can't tell which rifles have an updgraded extractor and which don't. For example... I'm looking at the LMT... which as far as I know is supposed to be "good to go"... it says "black extractor spring insert" so I assume yes? But read literally, that means just the spring, so I'm not sure if an upgraded extractor to go along with it is implied.

Some feedback... I think it would be good to explain why these items listed are musts. As a n00b, I only knew what half of these meant and why they were important... I used The Chart and my GoogleFu to find out the rest. Even "The Chart" doesn't fully explain the potential consequences of the lack some of these features, even though it explains what they are. If this is going to be the "Carbine Bible Thread" then I think we should cover these to save the other n00bs some time, and for posterity in case the link to The Chart dies.
  • Chrome lined barrel - Chrome parts are more durable, especially in harsh environments. (Wondering why you didn't list chrome chamber and bore? Everything but the budget rifles seems to have them though, so I guess you took it as a given.)
  • M4 feed ramps were explained elsewhere in the thread
  • MPI bolt & barrel - From Wikipedia: "Magnetic particle inspection processes are non-destructive methods for the detection of surface and sub-surface defects in ferrous materials." In other words, this is looking for defects that are otherwise difficult or impossible to see with the naked eye, but that could cause major issues when the carbine is operating, due to pressures involved, etc. This would check things like small cracks that could cause the part in question to break apart or explode under pressure.
  • Properly staked BCG - "When the keys shoot loose the AR becomes a single shot or worse as it can try to feed a live round with an empty still in the upper."
  • -Properly staked castle nut- "The receiver extension backed out and let the buffer capture pin spring up INFRONT of the rear ring of the bolt carrier (ar15 carrier)...this prevented the gun from going FULLY into battery, but let the BCG go far enough forward, so that the hammer made contact with the firing pin. Result: blown up AR. Blown out bolt, blown out magazine....couldn't get the bolt out of the barrel extension....who knows what shape the barrel extension and receivers are in..." Also, your stock could come loose.
  • 5.56 chamber - covered
  • Upgraded extractor and spring - Helps prevent FTE (Failure To Eject).

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by MacabeeSicarius » Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:26 pm

quick addendum - for MPI to have any value it must be performed after HPT (high pressure test)
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Brendan Sullivan » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:15 pm

A chromed bore will have a chromed chamber. You potentially lose some accuracy, with the tradeoff that your barrel will clean easier and last longer with poor or sporadic maintenance.

There's image threads out there about bolt carrier staking, and browsing them will give you a great idea of what kind of stake job will hold your gas key on the carrier, and what was just done to give you the impression that the manufacturer isn't a jackass. You want the screw heads to have material pushed out of the way so it looks like they couldn't turn if they wanted to.

MPI is as you described from the article. It's done on most uppers these days but if it's left out of the list of features, make note. It is not a guarantee that something won't 'splode under normal use, but it gives the peace of mind that your shit isn't cracked from the factory.

There are different tolerances between extractors, but the black spring insert thing is a little post that goes inside the spring that's under your extractor to enhance its reliability, and is another common and recommended mod, but also one that's easily done by the end-user with aftermarket parts, so this shouldn't be the deal breaker on what upper you buy.

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by steppenwolf » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:19 pm

gordon_freeman wrote:For a fighting carbine.
1. Reliability is everything.
2. Accuracy is nice to have too
3. All hardware is optional depending on needs. "Amateurs talk hardware, professionals talk software".

My philosophy is that you should build your carbine on your needs, and not on what others think is cool or fashionable.
Image
I agree with that, but even within these criteria there's still a lot of room for variation. If there weren't, everyone's "fighting carbine" would look identical, right down to barrel length & optics. Still it's definitely a good move to avoid buying cheap - and usually out-of-spec - knock-offs.

Some examples of "fighting carbines":

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Good ol' low-tech iron sights.
Image

Just wanted to dispel the notion that there's only one kind of "fighting carbine," or even one "build" standard to conform to ... :shock:

It's fine to talk about these things in an out-of-context theory kinda way, but when reality comes 'round the corner it'll depend on the fight - as well as the task or mission that brought the end-user there and, to some extent, his role in it.

And as the Rock used to say, "Know your role" (i.e., Civy, Mil or L.E.) :wink: :lol:

8)
Last edited by steppenwolf on Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by MacabeeSicarius » Fri Aug 14, 2009 7:35 pm

Dave pretty much listed a baseline of minimums. you can take it from there according to your own personal requirements.

He was also saying that high quality basic components as a starting point is much better than a low end rifle with cut rate optics, rails and lights bolted on to it.


while we're speaking on personal stuff, myself - i'd rather roll with irons than a Millet, shown in the above photo

i have an Accupoint TR21 and I don't think i'd like to use a variable 1-4 scope on a fighting gun; not even a S&B SD and certainly not a Millet. an Aimpoint with 3x in a flippy mount, is the gravy for me!!! its as close to perfection for my needs as i think i can get with current technology.

other people might prefer a 1-4x, but if you want it on a fighting gun, i would certainly drop the coin on something like an Accupoint TR24, 1-4x Nightforce NSX, Swarovski or Schmidt + Bender. i'll take quality irons over cheap optics any day on a combat carbine.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by steppenwolf » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:12 pm

MacabeeSicarius wrote:Dave pretty much listed a baseline of minimums. you can take it from there according to your own personal requirements.
He was also saying that high quality basic components as a starting point is much better than a low end rifle with cut rate optics, rails and lights bolted on to it. ***
Yeah, I got that. I liked Dave's initial post and no criticism was intended in my last one.

I was just adding my 2-cents to what appeared to me to have evolved into an increasingly tunnel-visioned thread (after Dave's starter) on what a "fighting carbine" must look like, rather than what it might look like. A way, not the the way.

8)
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by steppenwolf » Fri Aug 14, 2009 8:40 pm

MacabeeSicarius wrote:***
*** while we're speaking on personal stuff, myself - i'd rather roll with irons than a Millet, shown in the above photo
i have an Accupoint TR21 and I don't think i'd like to use a variable 1-4 scope on a fighting gun; not even a S&B SD and certainly not a Millet. an Aimpoint with 3x in a flippy mount, is the gravy for me!!! its as close to perfection for my needs as i think i can get with current technology.

other people might prefer a 1-4x, but if you want it on a fighting gun, i would certainly drop the coin on something like an Accupoint TR24, 1-4x Nightforce NSX, Swarovski or Schmidt + Bender. i'll take quality irons over cheap optics any day on a combat carbine.
I know what you mean about the Aimpoint RDS & 3x mag ...
Image

Actually, the Millet (at least the specimen I got) has held up. The glass is good - clear, no fog. The illuminated, red circle-dot reticle is well-designed. It's PERFECT for my needs and shooting. The 1x setting exhibits only a very slight magnification, but I can live with it. The dails tested out for repeatability (shoot a 5-shot group; click 10 right, shoot a group; click 10 down, shoot a group; click 10 left, etc.)

For the price you can't beat the Millet. Two downsides: 1) it's weighty (no carbine it's riding on is going to make 6-7 lbs along w/ loaded mags); 2) it's got finicky eye relief, but that's fixable w/ the right extended mount (LT SPR-E) and the right stock for cheekweld (for me, that's an EMOD).

And as far as a 1-4x scope goes, remember in some types of SHTF scenarios that magnification range in one optic gives you more versatility, and is more precise at longer distance, if you need to shoot that far, than a RDS + magnifier.

We'll call this one a "precision" fighting carbine ... :wink:
Image

RDS + LT magnifier + SF suppressor
Image

8)
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by dragon rouge » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:31 am

I have what to me is almost an ideal fighting carbine ,an older springfield M1A bush rifle with the odd spare part and some good quality magazines.I developed a very strong aversion to the the AR15 and all its kin. The last one I owned was a colt car .I have regretted that purchase for 15 years and blessed the fool who traded me the springfield for the thing.I like the reliability of the AK and its variations but much prefer the accuracy, power and range advantage of the M1A .

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Dave_M » Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:33 am

dragon rouge wrote:I like the reliability of the AK and its variations but much prefer the accuracy, power and range advantage of the M1A .
Please go somewhere else with this shit and not dump in my thread any longer. This thread was about AR's and AK's, if you want to start a thread about the M1A, by all means go and do so.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by MacabeeSicarius » Sun Aug 16, 2009 5:45 pm

yes. please start a thread about the M1A so all of us can shit in your topic, the same way you have in ours.
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by gordon_freeman » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:16 pm

steppenwolf wrote:
gordon_freeman wrote:For a fighting carbine.
1. Reliability is everything.
2. Accuracy is nice to have too
3. All hardware is optional depending on needs. "Amateurs talk hardware, professionals talk software".

My philosophy is that you should build your carbine on your needs, and not on what others think is cool or fashionable.
Image
I agree with that, but even within these criteria there's still a lot of room for variation. If there weren't, everyone's "fighting carbine" would look identical, right down to barrel length & optics. Still it's definitely a good move to avoid buying cheap - and usually out-of-spec - knock-offs.

Just wanted to dispel the notion that there's only one kind of "fighting carbine," or even one "build" standard to conform to ... :shock:

It's fine to talk about these things in an out-of-context theory kinda way, but when reality comes 'round the corner it'll depend on the fight - as well as the task or mission that brought the end-user there and, to some extent, his role in it.

And as the Rock used to say, "Know your role" (i.e., Civy, Mil or L.E.) :wink: :lol:

8)
Don't know if you're taking on my specific viewpoint or not, but i'll respond as if you were.

I think my points are pretty darn broad. Just buy a reliable medium power cartridge rifle, set it up for your needs (optics, sling, etc) and then TAKE IT TO A CLASS. And not just any class, spend the money to go to a decent class that isn't put together by some know it all gun store employee who was a Fobbit in the reserves. Having a rifle doesn't make you a rifleman, the same way owning a guitar doesn't make you a musician.

In my opinion, a fighting carbine will have a barrel between 11" to 18" in length, have weight mitigation as a concern, and run the bare minimum of accessories needed to get the job done. Sling, weapon light are an absolute must have. Optics are a important, but optional accessory. Everything else is optional. Every accessory should be purchased with function in mind.

My 14.5" is my primary rifle. It's what I use at classes and at competitions. The SPR clone is my "fun gun". My backup rifle is a carry handle sight equipped BCM midlength.

I also forgot to mention I like the idea of "buy once cry once".

I prefer to buy AR-15s made only with Tier 1 manufacturer parts (Colt, BCM, LMT, Noveske, and some CMT/RRA parts) and prefer to run irons, if i don't have the money to afford the most durable optic available. Made an exception for my SPR-ish rifle, as my target scope is $1,400, lol! Also, I would NOT want to lug the SPR-ish rifle around in an emergency.

ETA: The M1A is heavy as heavy, recoils like crazy, and is not a fighting carbine. Run that at a carbine class, see how well you do in a dynamic environment against multiple aggressors. No one is denying the 7.62*51 is more powerful, but its nature requires a lot more heft/skill/practice to run as fast as an AR-15 or similiar 5.56 carbine.

HOWEVER, there is an older lady who runs the FAL at my weekly rifle league, and she's faster/more accurate than 95% of the people who run in that league, including myself most of the time. She's been shooting it for many, many years though. Like I said earlier, software > hardware.

Also, I personally like the M1A as a weapon, for the same reason I like the 1911. I like old school engineering with old school materials. It's pretty... like mechanical watch. However, if the SHTF, i'm grabbing the aluminum/plastic AR-15, and the combat tupperware Glock 19!

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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Zoltan » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:01 pm

Why is this not Stickied yet??!!

It would really help if it was. Thanks Mods!!!!
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Septimus39 » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:42 pm

Thanks very much for the information, everyone.

My only question is how to determine whether my particular gun has the various features listed as being required. Is there a way to look at the various parts and tell whether they are up to a particular spec, or do I need to have documentation on all of it from the manufacturer?
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Noven » Fri Oct 23, 2009 4:51 pm

Are there more visual examples of a Fighting AK? I want some inspiration for my WASR-2 =).
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Re: The Basics of the Fighting Carbine

Post by Dave_M » Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:13 pm

Noven wrote:Are there more visual examples of a Fighting AK? I want some inspiration for my WASR-2 =).
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