AR15 for Home defense

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AR15 for Home defense

Post by JF89 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:30 pm

Honestly I like my AR15 for Home defense. Here are the main reasons:

Ergonomics/Slick controls

Capacity

quick follow up shots

accuracy

fairly easy to operate one handed

This applies to AKs, Scar Ls , etc etc too.

5.56 over penetration is a myth there has been studies done by LE even.

http://www.preparedgunowners.com/2016/0 ... n-testing/

The FBI has actually done testing on 5.56 supposedly having over penetration issues and it dosnt. or at least it penetrates barriers even less than common pistol or shotgun rounds.


here's an experts opinion, it's pretty straight forward and blunt.

Kyle Lamb's opinion on why the AR15 is a good home defense choice.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articl ... s-opinion/

here's the authors bio:

"One of today’s best-known and most respected trainers in the art of gun fighting, retired Sgt./Maj. Kyle E. Lamb, spent more than 21 years with the U.S. Army—more than 15 years of which were in Special Operations."

a neat video on his background too
https://youtu.be/byL_rW8n-Ow


The legal side of things can be hairy but out of the at least dozen cases I've read about on a person legitimately using an AR15 for defense there are no comments/concerns that I can find on the firearm choice. It might appear more evil than a shotgun but that really is not a concern to me, ymmv. If my life is at stake a firearm I'm comfortable with is more important than it's public appearance, again imo.



opinions welcome, we need more active discussions around here.

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by flybynight » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:16 pm

I personally do not even own an AR. It's not that I have a argument against them. It's just logistics and an awareness of probable use. My self loading rifles run more to WW2 era weapons. This is what I have stocked ammo and accessories for. If I were to now purchase a AR. I would have to buy , the weapon, the ammo, the magazines and the accessories . Not withstanding this I was four years ago about to purchase one and begin assembling all the kit to go with it, when something was mentioned here on the Zombie boards which changed my mind. I don't remember exactly what was said but it caused me to re-evaluate my reasons for getting a AR. My thinking ran thus. At that time I had a severe case of Plantar fasciitis which made me realize that if I had to walk home from work ( 13 miles ) , this could very well be a overnight trip. If conditions warranted the need for an AR to survive and get home. I ain't going to make it. My age, physical abilities preclude me from surviving battle field conditions. ( being thus robbed of my inherent lust for new weapons by my persona epiphany I consoled myself with the purchase of a new 12 gauge shot gun and .38 revolver ). And that's where I still stand. I got two weapons I was familiar with and had deep stock of ammo already in place. For bumps in the night I use one of my pistols or fall back to one of my shotguns. If I had to defend my home from the zombie horde, then I would use the self loaders I already own . Even if things start to look really sketchy , I still will more than likely just be carrying my pistol . It's concealable , lighter than a long arm and extra ammo is lighter also. Just my 2 cents on the venerable poodle gun and why I don't have one for HD.

BTW in three years I'm going to quote your post :v:
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by majorhavoc » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:34 pm

The AR was my very first firearm. Ironically, I got it because it was the only gun I could afford. I was post-divorce, incredibly cash strapped and just getting into prepping. I realized I could buy an AR on the installment plan by building it myself: get the lower receiver via FFL the first month, then purchase the lower build kit, upper receiver, BCG, barrel assembly, etc in the ensuing months.

If money hadn't been so tight, I think a 12 gauge would have been a far better choice as a prepper's first firearm, especially for home defense. But can't argue with you that the ergos on the AR are superb. It's a sweet shooting firearm.

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by NT2C » Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:01 am

It's important when reading "facts" like those in the article on the Prepared Gun Owners site to understand they are cherry-picked to support what the conclusion of the article will be and to carefully examine the actual data presented.

For example, the pistol calibers that are talked about are being fired from an SMG (because it's LE testing)
...subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
and
...which is why professional door-kicker types have abandoned pistol-caliber submachineguns in favor of .223 carbines.
Submachine guns are generally used with hardball ammo, not hollowpoints, to ensure reliable feeding. Hardball rounds will penetrate barriers like wood studs and drywall a lot easier than hollowpoints will, and modern hollowpoint pistol rounds notoriously get clogged and fail to expand or their velocity falls below the threshold for expansion (around 850fps) when fired from a short-barreled pistol, such as an S&W Shield or SIG p365.

.223 hardball rounds will chew through walls like nobody's business, even better than pistol caliber hardball rounds through an SMG (for a more accurate apples to apples comparison). Where .223 ammo shines in tests like these is when they're .223 soft point or hollowpoint rounds because at the velocity a .223 moves when a softpoint or hollowpoint hits a barrier wall they tend to fragment and disintegrate. That's simple physics and does illustrate how an AR can be loaded to make it safer in home defense than a pistol. How many guys are going to take the time to grasp that fine point and load up with such ammo though, and how many are gonna skim the piece and think the FBI and various LE agencies are saying their AR (loaded with cheap mil-surp or Tula ball ammo) is better than a pistol for home defense?

(I also should mention here that "over penetration" is most commonly used to denote ammunition that when it hits the bad guy goes on through them instead of remaining inside the body.)

Oh, and in all those tests where they compared against a shotgun they were using either slugs or 00 Buck, both of which are pretty stupid choices for home defense if you're concerned about penetrating interior or exterior walls. You'd do a lot better with #4 buck or even heavy birdshot loads if the interior shooting distances are short enough (if you live in a Goodyear blimp hanger it's not an ideal choice) and those will perform comparably to the .223 softpoints.

Again, you want to carefully examine the data you're being given, not just the conclusions and a fast skim of an article or two.
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by woodsghost » Sat Feb 08, 2020 7:42 am

You are spot in with our needing more discussions! Good for you!

First, it is helpful to look at some fantastic self-defense 5.56 loadings and see how they perform in an actual house (rather than simulated walls at a range).

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PbdmQ5IN2j0&t=1s

This was pretty eye opening for me.

Second, the unspoken argument in this thread seems to be "5.56 is the best for HD." While it is true that "lots of terrorists have been shot with 5.56" the advice I have got from people here and people in other places who have shot and killed bad guys with different guns have told me the .30 Cal is where it's at. If I was running an AR for HD, I would want a 300BO. I've seen them work wonders on deer with good bullets. I have read special forces guys go back and forth over 5.56 vs .30 Cal, and as one of them put it, "professionals with equal amounts of experience can disagree, so take the advice or don't." For me, I have chosen the .30 Cal route because it is legal to hunt with in my state, and that says a lot. A conversation with one of the DNR guys who has done a lot of wildlife management in my area (killing hundreds of deer) found the 5.56 could kill deer effectively, but the rule of thumb is that it needs to produce 900 ft lbs of energy at 100 yards, and this was later written into state law allowing 5.56 to be used for deer hunting.

Likewise, many hog hunters have had different experience with 5.56 vs .30 Cal, and have disagreements online. But...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PPlSPN2wYDc&t=302s

Good info on bullets and something I would pay attention to when considering a round for HD.

So professionals disagree on caliber. But ALL professionals agree that shot placement matters. My experience this last deer season showed that my shot placement has degraded over the last 3 years and I need to go back to training. Shooting something with a .30 Cal round doesn't magically make up for sucky shot placement.

Ok, now for shotguns; Lamb is cool, and frankly there are other experienced people who disagree with him on the shotgun vs 5.56 debate. THIS IS OK! Scientists with equal training and equal access to evidence still disagree all the time. When you read "scientists agree that ..." your BS meter should ping like crazy because there is little to nothing that "all scientists" agree on. But look at Lamb's argument regarding shotguns: Lamb focused on reliability with different kinds of ammo, one handed operation, weight of the gun, and magazine capacity.

His argument is that pump guns are not easy to operate one handed, recoil operated guns are ammo sensitive, and gas guns (which solve issues 1 & 2, above) are too heavy. I feel he is being a bit nit-picky here, but what do I know? Also, there are shotguns which solve THIS problem too. Capacity can be an issue, but how many rounds are usually used in a self-defense fight? Not many, but occasionally it does get hairy. Usually when multiple attackers show up.

NT2C hit the nail on the head with the heart of the argument: over penetration *assuming you hit the target and are using QUALITY soft point or hollow point ammo* is reduced. For me, I have more faith that a 55gr projectile going 950-1050 fps will be less damaging to friendlies if I miss than a 55gr projectile going 2900 fps. This is comparing low recoil 00 Buck in an 18 in barrel to a lot of defensive 5.56 in a 16 in barrel. If the physics are not obvious, I can explain if needed. And I'm assuming "after the miss has passed through 6-8 layers of drywall." I don't assume 2 layers of drywall will do much for any round capable of FBI penetration on a bad guy.

"But WG, just don't miss!" I wish I was that confident in myself, but my experience says when I have to deal with something at 8 feet it can be very hard not to miss. I get very target focused. But a red dot can help. At 15 feet I'm more comfortable, but depending on how stressed and surprised I am, I can still get very target focused instead of sights/weapon focused. That is a training issue and I'm investing in more training.

Lastly, consider the environment. Most of my apartments have been so small and walls placed in a way that rifles and shotguns physically could not be brought to bear in many areas. Your videos on one-man CQB showed some great reasons to use a pistol in such situations. Currently I run a revolver because it is compact enough to be used in every part of the apartment, it can be used for a contact shot, and it is a safe gun for my situation (DAO). And I can reload for it and hunt with it. It fills a lot of requirements. If I had put the thought into the size of my apartments, the walls and rooms and angles and actually using a long gun in an apartment, I never would have bought the shotgun. As it is, the shotgun is stored away now.

So what is my opinion on the 5.56 AR for HD? It is just one option among many, and is only "super awesome" if the right ammo is selected and no misses happen and frankly, your physical layout may mean other options are better. Just my opinions. :)
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by JF89 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:20 pm

NT2C wrote:
Sat Feb 08, 2020 12:01 am
It's important when reading "facts" like those in the article on the Prepared Gun Owners site to understand they are cherry-picked to support what the conclusion of the article will be and to carefully examine the actual data presented.

For example, the pistol calibers that are talked about are being fired from an SMG (because it's LE testing)
...subjected several various .223 caliber projectiles to 13 different ballistic tests and compared their performance to that of SMG-fired hollow point pistol bullets in 9mm, 10mm, and .40 S&W calibers.
and
...which is why professional door-kicker types have abandoned pistol-caliber submachineguns in favor of .223 carbines.
Submachine guns are generally used with hardball ammo, not hollowpoints, to ensure reliable feeding. Hardball rounds will penetrate barriers like wood studs and drywall a lot easier than hollowpoints will, and modern hollowpoint pistol rounds notoriously get clogged and fail to expand or their velocity falls below the threshold for expansion (around 850fps) when fired from a short-barreled pistol, such as an S&W Shield or SIG p365.

.223 hardball rounds will chew through walls like nobody's business, even better than pistol caliber hardball rounds through an SMG (for a more accurate apples to apples comparison). Where .223 ammo shines in tests like these is when they're .223 soft point or hollowpoint rounds because at the velocity a .223 moves when a softpoint or hollowpoint hits a barrier wall they tend to fragment and disintegrate. That's simple physics and does illustrate how an AR can be loaded to make it safer in home defense than a pistol. How many guys are going to take the time to grasp that fine point and load up with such ammo though, and how many are gonna skim the piece and think the FBI and various LE agencies are saying their AR (loaded with cheap mil-surp or Tula ball ammo) is better than a pistol for home defense?

(I also should mention here that "over penetration" is most commonly used to denote ammunition that when it hits the bad guy goes on through them instead of remaining inside the body.)

Oh, and in all those tests where they compared against a shotgun they were using either slugs or 00 Buck, both of which are pretty stupid choices for home defense if you're concerned about penetrating interior or exterior walls. You'd do a lot better with #4 buck or even heavy birdshot loads if the interior shooting distances are short enough (if you live in a Goodyear blimp hanger it's not an ideal choice) and those will perform comparably to the .223 softpoints.

Again, you want to carefully examine the data you're being given, not just the conclusions and a fast skim of an article or two.
OO buck is what most people use for their HD shotgun though from what I've seen. I'm not sure if I put it in my post but quality ammo is the biggest deal with a SD AR15 I won't run fmj for my HD gun. Good catch on the subgub part of that I didn't see that. I actually read the report though ,the prepared gun owners article was just so its easier to read. Eitherway point taken. I will still take capacity and quick follow up shots over a more devastating round.

Apples to Oranges , I figured it was worth a discussion though.

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by JF89 » Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:27 pm

flybynight wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:16 pm
I personally do not even own an AR. It's not that I have a argument against them. It's just logistics and an awareness of probable use. My self loading rifles run more to WW2 era weapons. This is what I have stocked ammo and accessories for. If I were to now purchase a AR. I would have to buy , the weapon, the ammo, the magazines and the accessories . Not withstanding this I was four years ago about to purchase one and begin assembling all the kit to go with it, when something was mentioned here on the Zombie boards which changed my mind. I don't remember exactly what was said but it caused me to re-evaluate my reasons for getting a AR. My thinking ran thus. At that time I had a severe case of Plantar fasciitis which made me realize that if I had to walk home from work ( 13 miles ) , this could very well be a overnight trip. If conditions warranted the need for an AR to survive and get home. I ain't going to make it. My age, physical abilities preclude me from surviving battle field conditions. ( being thus robbed of my inherent lust for new weapons by my persona epiphany I consoled myself with the purchase of a new 12 gauge shot gun and .38 revolver ). And that's where I still stand. I got two weapons I was familiar with and had deep stock of ammo already in place. For bumps in the night I use one of my pistols or fall back to one of my shotguns. If I had to defend my home from the zombie horde, then I would use the self loaders I already own . Even if things start to look really sketchy , I still will more than likely just be carrying my pistol . It's concealable , lighter than a long arm and extra ammo is lighter also. Just my 2 cents on the venerable poodle gun and why I don't have one for HD.

BTW in three years I'm going to quote your post :v:
Fair enough.

Sounds like a plan...If we are not zombies by then :awesome:


I will be carrying my AR in a trench coat ,even bought a mustache and aviators to go with it. My real dilemma is should I go nude under the trench coat so im more aero dynamic in a fight?

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by MPMalloy » Sun Feb 09, 2020 7:15 pm

JF89 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:27 pm
I will be carrying my AR in a trench coat ,even bought a mustache and aviators to go with it. My real dilemma is should I go nude under the trench coat so I'm more aerodynamic in a fight?
Of course! I can't believe this is even a question :clownshoes:

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by NT2C » Sun Feb 09, 2020 8:02 pm

JF89 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:27 pm
flybynight wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:16 pm
I personally do not even own an AR. It's not that I have a argument against them. It's just logistics and an awareness of probable use. My self loading rifles run more to WW2 era weapons. This is what I have stocked ammo and accessories for. If I were to now purchase a AR. I would have to buy , the weapon, the ammo, the magazines and the accessories . Not withstanding this I was four years ago about to purchase one and begin assembling all the kit to go with it, when something was mentioned here on the Zombie boards which changed my mind. I don't remember exactly what was said but it caused me to re-evaluate my reasons for getting a AR. My thinking ran thus. At that time I had a severe case of Plantar fasciitis which made me realize that if I had to walk home from work ( 13 miles ) , this could very well be a overnight trip. If conditions warranted the need for an AR to survive and get home. I ain't going to make it. My age, physical abilities preclude me from surviving battle field conditions. ( being thus robbed of my inherent lust for new weapons by my persona epiphany I consoled myself with the purchase of a new 12 gauge shot gun and .38 revolver ). And that's where I still stand. I got two weapons I was familiar with and had deep stock of ammo already in place. For bumps in the night I use one of my pistols or fall back to one of my shotguns. If I had to defend my home from the zombie horde, then I would use the self loaders I already own . Even if things start to look really sketchy , I still will more than likely just be carrying my pistol . It's concealable , lighter than a long arm and extra ammo is lighter also. Just my 2 cents on the venerable poodle gun and why I don't have one for HD.

BTW in three years I'm going to quote your post :v:
Fair enough.

Sounds like a plan...If we are not zombies by then :awesome:


I will be carrying my AR in a trench coat ,even bought a mustache and aviators to go with it. My real dilemma is should I go nude under the trench coat so im more aero dynamic in a fight?
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by RickOShea » Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:11 pm

JF89 wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 6:27 pm
I will be carrying my AR in a trench coat ,even bought a mustache and aviators to go with it. My real dilemma is should I go nude under the trench coat so I'm more aerodynamic in a fight?
Since you aren't carrying a revolver, a hockey mask and/or thigh-high boots aren't required....but you should still probably invest in some assless chaps, JIC.



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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by majorhavoc » Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:28 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 10:11 pm
you should still probably invest in some assless chaps, JIC.
Ah, the assless chaps reference. Zombie Squad's back!

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by BullOnParade » Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:52 pm

So much for that discussion ...
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by woodsghost » Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:06 pm

BullOnParade wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:52 pm
So much for that discussion ...
Keep the discussion going man! Add your piece!


Or more pictures?

Your choice :)
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by yossarian » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:29 pm

It's not really Zombie Squad until someone points out that chaps are, by definition, assless. Otherwise they're just pants.
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by MPMalloy » Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:44 pm

yossarian wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 10:29 pm
It's not really Zombie Squad until someone points out that chaps are, by definition, assless. Otherwise they're just pants.
trufh dat

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by RickOShea » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:34 am

BullOnParade wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:52 pm
So much for that discussion ...
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:44 pm

woodsghost wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:06 pm
BullOnParade wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:52 pm
So much for that discussion ...
Keep the discussion going man! Add your piece!


Or more pictures?

Your choice :)
I'm Canadian, so an AR15 has to be trigger locked and locked in a secure container, or no trigger lock in a proper safe. It really narrows the list of things worth keeping bedside.

Manually operated choices such as a lever or pump are not restricted, nor is there a minimum barrel length for them. I have an 870 with a 14" barrel, +1 tube extension, AR furniture, and coyote choke (extra full designed for buck shot).

I also have a mares leg I'm in the process of heavily modifying. The 870 I've had for a while, but finally finished building last summer for use on the remote property my wife and I bought. The mares leg was purchased specifically for a lightweight option while on the property but once it's complete I think it's the better choice for HD in urban or remote locations.

My last purchase was a stag 10, which funny enough isn't considered an AR in Canada because of the proprietary receivers. Unfortunately, to maintain a non-restricted status I cannot put a barrel shorter than 18 inches on it and as such, it is far too long to maneuver around corners within my apartment.
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by woodsghost » Wed Feb 12, 2020 7:56 pm

BullOnParade wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:44 pm
woodsghost wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 9:06 pm
BullOnParade wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 8:52 pm
So much for that discussion ...
Keep the discussion going man! Add your piece!


Or more pictures?

Your choice :)
I'm Canadian, so an AR15 has to be trigger locked and locked in a secure container, or no trigger lock in a proper safe. It really narrows the list of things worth keeping bedside.

Manually operated choices such as a lever or pump are not restricted, nor is there a minimum barrel length for them. I have an 870 with a 14" barrel, +1 tube extension, AR furniture, and coyote choke (extra full designed for buck shot).

I also have a mares leg I'm in the process of heavily modifying. The 870 I've had for a while, but finally finished building last summer for use on the remote property my wife and I bought. The mares leg was purchased specifically for a lightweight option while on the property but once it's complete I think it's the better choice for HD in urban or remote locations.

My last purchase was a stag 10, which funny enough isn't considered an AR in Canada because of the proprietary receivers. Unfortunately, to maintain a non-restricted status I cannot put a barrel shorter than 18 inches on it and as such, it is far too long to maneuver around corners within my apartment.
You bring up great points! You have also dealt with apartments, which can present very different challenges from houses. You mention that on a rural property, defensive guns can look different than in urban settings, so I feel you bring out the point that "context matters."

Further, local laws can drastically affect what is available, and as JF89 pointed out, the AR15 is fantastic in a great many settings and for many reasons. But people in countries other than the US often have very different legal restrictions, and even in the US, local laws can vary widely between states. This will color which might be the "best" gun for self-defense. And defense against what, exactly? In some rural areas, bears and moose are a real threat. In other areas, alligators are a bigger threat. And in some places, humans are the biggest issue.

So thanks Bull for contributing. I feel there were some contextual elements which were being overlooked. I appreciate all the responses so far.

As JF89 said, we need more discussions, and probably more discussion on basic topics. Right now, I see 9 (now 12) visitors reading this page. There are a lot of people who are new to prepping, and have probably not been exposed to the same amount of information many of those active here have been rolling around in for the last 10-15 years (or 40+ years). So thank you JF89 for kicking this off with some good thoughts and material!
*Remember: I'm just a guy on the internet :)
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flybynight
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by flybynight » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm

I would feel under gunned, if armed with a AR ( or AK ) against bears, moose or even alligator. Conversely I would not feel undergunned with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. But then again, when was the last time you read of a outlaw biker bear gang commiting a home invasion? Or even a moose burglar with ill intent
Not all those who wander are lost

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by BullOnParade » Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:49 pm

Maybe I'm naive, but I think 30+ rounds of GOOD .223 hunting ammo would go a long way against 9/10 wildlife threats in North America. Moose, grizzly and polar bear being the biggest three exceptions, maybe those monster 'gators I see on FB occasionally.

Of those four creatures, moose are the only ones close to my AO, and they're usually timid around humans. If any of them charged you, you'd typically be lucky to have time to shoulder a longarm.
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NT2C
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by NT2C » Wed Feb 12, 2020 11:02 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
Or even a moose burglar with ill intent
You should talk to my wife then. While an undergraduate at the University of Alaska in Anchorage she had a moose try to break into the trailer she was living in. Her brother had to come from his house and run it off. The same moose later followed her when she was walking and she had to hide in a church that was under construction until it left. Yes, she had a moose stalker.
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by Stercutus » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 pm

flybynight wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
I would feel under gunned, if armed with a AR ( or AK ) against bears, moose or even alligator. Conversely I would not feel undergunned with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. But then again, when was the last time you read of a outlaw biker bear gang commiting a home invasion? Or even a moose burglar with ill intent
I had a family of bears beak in to my house. They cleaned out the pantry and broke windows on the way in and the way out.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

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flybynight
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by flybynight » Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:02 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 pm
flybynight wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
I would feel under gunned, if armed with a AR ( or AK ) against bears, moose or even alligator. Conversely I would not feel undergunned with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. But then again, when was the last time you read of a outlaw biker bear gang commiting a home invasion? Or even a moose burglar with ill intent
I had a family of bears beak in to my house. They cleaned out the pantry and broke windows on the way in and the way out.
There's bears in Alabama ? Did not know that
Not all those who wander are lost

John Titor was right <--- :ohdear: Way past the point of going gray man. See you on the other side ( or not :wink: )

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NT2C
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Re: AR15 for Home defense

Post by NT2C » Sat Feb 29, 2020 11:54 pm

flybynight wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 10:02 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:57 pm
flybynight wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 10:29 pm
I would feel under gunned, if armed with a AR ( or AK ) against bears, moose or even alligator. Conversely I would not feel undergunned with a 12 gauge loaded with slugs. But then again, when was the last time you read of a outlaw biker bear gang commiting a home invasion? Or even a moose burglar with ill intent
I had a family of bears beak in to my house. They cleaned out the pantry and broke windows on the way in and the way out.
There's bears in Alabama ? Did not know that
Bear areas of North America
Nonsolis Radios Sediouis Fulmina Mitto. - USN Gunner's Mate motto

Sic quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit; occidentis telum est - Seneca the Younger, Epistles

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