2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Langenator » Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:47 pm

The Army (and probably the Marines) did pull a lot of them out of storage during the GWOT because of the need for something with better power at range than the M-16 or M-4, and the M-14s were available NOW, without having to go through even SOCOMs abbreviated procurement channels.

They have since been replaced in the SDM role by the M110 or other AR-10 derivatives.

As far as shipboard use, it's main utility is line launching, and I'm sure it can do a passable job of launching bullets at the odd Somali-type pirate (if the 25mm, .50 cals, and/or M240s for some reason are unavailable), but it would seem to me to be a massively impractical weapon for boarding or repelling boarders who managed to get on the ship, due mainly to it's great length. The M-4, or something on the order of the MP-5 or even M-3 subgun would be more practical for boarding operations.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:01 pm

RickOShea wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:44 pm
moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:22 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
The main annoyance is that the AR-10 family isn't near as standardized as the AR-15.
Can you expand on that?
Claude ham mercy....that's a can of worms.

One of the biggest is the differences in receiver styles/shapes. A lot of brands fall into two main styles: Armalite or DPMS. An Armalite-style upper receiver may fit on a DPMS-style lower receiver, but there will be a gap at the rear. A DPMS upper receiver won't work on an Armalite lower receiver at all. And even if you have an upper and lower of the same style, but from different manufacturers, the holes for the push pins may not always line-up properly. Also, there are a couple different thread pitches for the barrel nut. IIRC, DPMS-type upper receivers are 16 TPI, but a lot of the Armalite-types are 18 TPI.


Image

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Thank you for the information. I did not know that. Is either one better than the other?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:33 pm

moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:01 pm
RickOShea wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:44 pm
moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:22 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
The main annoyance is that the AR-10 family isn't near as standardized as the AR-15.
Can you expand on that?
Claude ham mercy....that's a can of worms.

One of the biggest is the differences in receiver styles/shapes. A lot of brands fall into two main styles: Armalite or DPMS. An Armalite-style upper receiver may fit on a DPMS-style lower receiver, but there will be a gap at the rear. A DPMS upper receiver won't work on an Armalite lower receiver at all. And even if you have an upper and lower of the same style, but from different manufacturers, the holes for the push pins may not always line-up properly. Also, there are a couple different thread pitches for the barrel nut. IIRC, DPMS-type upper receivers are 16 TPI, but a lot of the Armalite-types are 18 TPI.


Image

Image

Image
Thank you for the information. I did not know that. Is either one better than the other?
From what I understand, the DPMS is much more common and easier to get "stuff" for. But then again, there's various generations and each manufacturer had their own generations.

If I get an AR10, it will be a DPMS pattern or I'll just buy a full rifle that I like without worrying about building or accessories
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:40 pm

moab wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm



If it's for AK hunting. I'd consider the VEPR and Galil over the AR. Although the only issues I've read about the AR and cold. Is you have to choose the right lubricant. A VEPR or Galil is going to run no matter what. But if you can get an AR down in weight and use the right lube. That might be the killer combination.
I probably won't get one while I'm on Alaska or plan on hunting Alaska with it (might try a 450 Bushmaster though hahaha)

I'm thinking for the lower 48.... Maybe an excuse for a hog hunt.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:53 pm

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:40 pm
moab wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 2:20 pm



If it's for AK hunting. I'd consider the VEPR and Galil over the AR. Although the only issues I've read about the AR and cold. Is you have to choose the right lubricant. A VEPR or Galil is going to run no matter what. But if you can get an AR down in weight and use the right lube. That might be the killer combination.
I probably won't get one while I'm on Alaska or plan on hunting Alaska with it (might try a 450 Bushmaster though hahaha)

I'm thinking for the lower 48.... Maybe an excuse for a hog hunt.
I still come back to the AR. (Or a run of the mill AK? And settle for x39? IDK.) I think AR10 is the way to go. I have come close to pulling the trigger on one more than once. And they are so damn cheap. I mean for the price of an Arsenal AK47 you could have a pretty slicked out AR10.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by RickOShea » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:07 pm

moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:01 pm
Thank you for the information. I did not know that. Is either one better than the other?
Probably not. But it is interesting to note that a lot of the "fancier" brands, like Knights Armament, LWRC, Noveske, LMT, Mega Arms, and LaRue go with the Armalite-style....then there's the HK 417, which is it's own thing. :crazy:
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:15 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm
NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration
I'm not sure where you're getting that 1958-1968 date from but I don't think it's correct, based on the fact that my command was issued M14 rifles in March of 1975, most Navy ships still have a number of them in the ship's armory, and they're still in limited use as designated marksman rifles today.
They gave you the ones the Army threw away. The only place I saw an M14 in use in the Army 1988-2014 was at VMI where the cadets were running around with them as cadet rifles. The firing pins had been removed but they were otherwise fully functional.
No, these were brand new, never issued, They replaced all our M1 rifles, brand new 870s replaced our old Winchesters, we had to turn in all of our Thompsons and M3s, and they issued us 16 new M2s and 8 M60s. It was a genuine clusterfuck because the ship had just come out of the yards where they refitted new lockers in the berthing spaces but never changed any of the racks and lockers in the armory. We had M2's piled up loose in a corner, M14s rattling around in the old M1 rifle racks, M60s stood up in M1A1 Thompson racks, depot refurbished 1911A1s stuffed into slots meant for the .38 revolvers we'd had (why we had .38 revolvers I have no idea), a thermite grenade locker had to be welded up and hung over the fantail, and we dumped literally hundreds of stick mags for the Thompsons and bayonets for the M1 rifles over the side halfway across the Atlantic.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:26 pm

Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:47 pm
The Army (and probably the Marines) did pull a lot of them out of storage during the GWOT because of the need for something with better power at range than the M-16 or M-4, and the M-14s were available NOW, without having to go through even SOCOMs abbreviated procurement channels.

They have since been replaced in the SDM role by the M110 or other AR-10 derivatives.

As far as shipboard use, it's main utility is line launching, and I'm sure it can do a passable job of launching bullets at the odd Somali-type pirate (if the 25mm, .50 cals, and/or M240s for some reason are unavailable), but it would seem to me to be a massively impractical weapon for boarding or repelling boarders who managed to get on the ship, due mainly to it's great length. The M-4, or something on the order of the MP-5 or even M-3 subgun would be more practical for boarding operations.
Back in my day, we had the option of using the M14 for line throwing, or a dedicated line throwing gun. We always went with the Bridger line throwing guns. Picture a break action shortie shotgun with a very heavy-walled barrel. Used a .45-70 black powder blank IIRC and had a range of about 300 yards.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Stercutus » Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:52 am

NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:15 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm
NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm
Langenator wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 5:17 pm
Thoughts on the actual battle rifles in the bunch, or the NATO ones at least:

M-14: there are good reasons that the U.S. military is the only ones to have ever actually bought M-14s (the only other countries that used them got them for free from Uncle Sugar), and that the M-14 had the shortest service life of any service rifle in U.S. history. (Beating the Krag by about a year, 1958-1968 vs 1892-1903). And it's really awkward to put optics on in it's standard configuration
I'm not sure where you're getting that 1958-1968 date from but I don't think it's correct, based on the fact that my command was issued M14 rifles in March of 1975, most Navy ships still have a number of them in the ship's armory, and they're still in limited use as designated marksman rifles today.
They gave you the ones the Army threw away. The only place I saw an M14 in use in the Army 1988-2014 was at VMI where the cadets were running around with them as cadet rifles. The firing pins had been removed but they were otherwise fully functional.
No, these were brand new, never issued, They replaced all our M1 rifles, brand new 870s replaced our old Winchesters, we had to turn in all of our Thompsons and M3s, and they issued us 16 new M2s and 8 M60s. It was a genuine clusterfuck because the ship had just come out of the yards where they refitted new lockers in the berthing spaces but never changed any of the racks and lockers in the armory. We had M2's piled up loose in a corner, M14s rattling around in the old M1 rifle racks, M60s stood up in M1A1 Thompson racks, depot refurbished 1911A1s stuffed into slots meant for the .38 revolvers we'd had (why we had .38 revolvers I have no idea), a thermite grenade locker had to be welded up and hung over the fantail, and we dumped literally hundreds of stick mags for the Thompsons and bayonets for the M1 rifles over the side halfway across the Atlantic.
Doubtful they were "brand new". The production of the M14 ceased in 1964 and the tooling was sold to Taiwan in 1969. They couldn't make one in 1975 even if they wanted to. They may have been "NiB" or new to you but they were actually more than ten years old.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Langenator » Sat Sep 28, 2019 8:09 am

Stercutus wrote:
Sat Sep 28, 2019 6:52 am
NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 11:15 pm
Stercutus wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 9:06 pm
NT2C wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:34 pm


I'm not sure where you're getting that 1958-1968 date from but I don't think it's correct, based on the fact that my command was issued M14 rifles in March of 1975, most Navy ships still have a number of them in the ship's armory, and they're still in limited use as designated marksman rifles today.
They gave you the ones the Army threw away. The only place I saw an M14 in use in the Army 1988-2014 was at VMI where the cadets were running around with them as cadet rifles. The firing pins had been removed but they were otherwise fully functional.
No, these were brand new, never issued, They replaced all our M1 rifles, brand new 870s replaced our old Winchesters, we had to turn in all of our Thompsons and M3s, and they issued us 16 new M2s and 8 M60s. It was a genuine clusterfuck because the ship had just come out of the yards where they refitted new lockers in the berthing spaces but never changed any of the racks and lockers in the armory. We had M2's piled up loose in a corner, M14s rattling around in the old M1 rifle racks, M60s stood up in M1A1 Thompson racks, depot refurbished 1911A1s stuffed into slots meant for the .38 revolvers we'd had (why we had .38 revolvers I have no idea), a thermite grenade locker had to be welded up and hung over the fantail, and we dumped literally hundreds of stick mags for the Thompsons and bayonets for the M1 rifles over the side halfway across the Atlantic.
Doubtful they were "brand new". The production of the M14 ceased in 1964 and the tooling was sold to Taiwan in 1969. They couldn't make one in 1975 even if they wanted to. They may have been "NiB" or new to you but they were actually more than ten years old.
And any .gov department can acquire another department's surplus property at no cost. (Which is how the Marines got M240Gs to replace their M60s well before the Army fielded M240Bs - the Marines took surplus Army M240Cs (coaxial MGs from Bradleys and Abrams after the early 90s RIF) and bought conversion kits from FN.) So those M-14s that the Navy got were most likely surplussed by the Army, which meant the Navy could get them at no cost.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Sat Sep 28, 2019 9:10 am

Okay, NiB then, the point is that they were still in service in 1975, long after that 1968 cutoff date.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Langenator » Sat Sep 28, 2019 11:22 am

But it ceased being a standard issue front line combat rifle for the ground services ~1968. Unless you were in the brown water Navy in Vietnam, those rifles in the arms locker on the USS Whatever were not really combat weapons anymore.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by clarence » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:10 pm

Benelli R1?
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:47 pm

clarence wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 5:10 pm
Benelli R1?
Is that the same as the FNAR and BAR? Is Benelli owned by FN with Browning/Winchester??

It's classy
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Stercutus » Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:28 pm

The R1 is a good rifle but not a battle rifle. It is doubtful it could stand up to the rigors of a battle rifle.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:42 pm

I'll just throw in here that the Italian Navy is reportedly still using Beretta BM59 battle rifles. I'll also throw in that my JRA version of the BM59 which I bought from Midway is a helluva nice shooter. And free grenade launcher! :crazy: :awesome:
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by The Twizzler » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm

Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on those compared to the M14. It seems like the Italians (BM-59) did a much better job than the US (M-14) at what I think we can both agree are really just upgraded Garands.



NT2C wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:42 pm
I'll just throw in here that the Italian Navy is reportedly still using Beretta BM59 battle rifles. I'll also throw in that my JRA version of the BM59 which I bought from Midway is a helluva nice shooter. And free grenade launcher! :crazy: :awesome:
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by Dabster » Thu Dec 05, 2019 8:16 pm

Yes! Another chance to share my ignorant and probably undesired opinions! As I mentioned on page one, my vote is for the AR-10 platform. My first “real” rifle was a rat-grade M-1A that I slowly turned into a match rifle (heavy barrel; National Match Guide rod, spring bolt and sights; glass-bedded McMillan stock). It was a joy to shoot and quite accurate, however the manual of arms was kind of goofy, options to add a scope were problematic and most important: it was very fragile.

A lot of my concerns with my M-1A were personal, maybe even psychological but they were motivation to draw up a list of requirements which I subsequently found resolved in the AR-10. I’ve had my Armalite AR-10T for about sixteen years. It barely looks like what I purchased new but it remains the best rifle I have ever fired.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by NT2C » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:27 pm

The Twizzler wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm
Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on those compared to the M14. It seems like the Italians (BM-59) did a much better job than the US (M-14) at what I think we can both agree are really just upgraded Garands.
No argument from me on that score, but it's a very nice upgrade.

One thing that should be noted though, for anyone thinking of buying one, you are limited to NATO-spec 7.62x51mm ammo. Because it was made to have a full-auto cyclic rate of 750rpm, and because .308 Win brass has thinner case walls, it tends to rip the heads off .308 rounds, leading to all sorts of nasty stuff happening, like broken extractors and getting a face full of expanding gases. The owner's manual specifically warns you about this and notes that using anything but 147-150gr 7.62x51mm NATO cartridges in it will void the warranty.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:22 am

The Twizzler wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:57 pm
Ian at Forgotten Weapons has a video on those compared to the M14. It seems like the Italians (BM-59) did a much better job than the US (M-14) at what I think we can both agree are really just upgraded Garands.



NT2C wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 11:42 pm
I'll just throw in here that the Italian Navy is reportedly still using Beretta BM59 battle rifles. I'll also throw in that my JRA version of the BM59 which I bought from Midway is a helluva nice shooter. And free grenade launcher! :crazy: :awesome:
In the 60's "the Italians produced it for $42"!

Interestingly enough my father and grandfather both used military surplus Springfields and Mausers for hunting. Throughout the 50's, 60's, 70's and even into the 80's and 90's. Both of which cost no more than $20 each. Makes my teeth ache. lol. Why didn't you see that importing or purchasing full auto firearms in the 50's and 60's wasn't a bad idea grandpa?!!!! lol. ;)
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by moab » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

JeeperCreeper wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:33 pm
moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 10:01 pm
RickOShea wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:44 pm
moab wrote:
Fri Sep 27, 2019 6:22 pm


Can you expand on that?
Claude ham mercy....that's a can of worms.

One of the biggest is the differences in receiver styles/shapes. A lot of brands fall into two main styles: Armalite or DPMS. An Armalite-style upper receiver may fit on a DPMS-style lower receiver, but there will be a gap at the rear. A DPMS upper receiver won't work on an Armalite lower receiver at all. And even if you have an upper and lower of the same style, but from different manufacturers, the holes for the push pins may not always line-up properly. Also, there are a couple different thread pitches for the barrel nut. IIRC, DPMS-type upper receivers are 16 TPI, but a lot of the Armalite-types are 18 TPI.


Image

Image

Image
Thank you for the information. I did not know that. Is either one better than the other?
From what I understand, the DPMS is much more common and easier to get "stuff" for. But then again, there's various generations and each manufacturer had their own generations.

If I get an AR10, it will be a DPMS pattern or I'll just buy a full rifle that I like without worrying about building or accessories
Rereading this thread. It's quite interesting.

Jeepercreeper (Or maybe it was Rickoshea that posted them?)- I was looking at those pics. And wondering. Are PSA's AR10's DPMS style? I assume DPMS AR10's are DPMS style. On the cheap end which of those two would be a better rifle do you think? Assuming the PSA is DPMS style. And what is the next step up in an AR10 in DPMS style?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here. I'm interested in as many opinions as I can get. I've built AK's for the last 15 years. And completely ignored the AR platform since getting out of the Marine Corps.
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:43 am

http://out-of-battery.com/palmetto-stat ... atability/

Looks like they use a mix but mostly DPMS stuff with some standard AR15 and Armalite mixed in for small parts.

And the receivers look to be DPMS pattern
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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by JeeperCreeper » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:45 am

https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/PA_10 ... 21-682080/

And this forum claims DPMS "low" pattern.

I was eyeballing an Aero upper and lower in AR10 the other day.... Maybe..... Just maybe....
They see me trollin', they hatin'.... keyboardin' tryna catch me typin' dirty
Halfapint wrote:There are some exceptions like myself and jeepercreeper.... but we are the forum asshats. We protect our positions with gusto
zero11010 wrote:The girlfriend is a good shot with a 10/22.
Her secondary offense will be nagging.

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Re: 2019 - Current Battle Rifles in 7.62x51

Post by MacWa77ace » Fri Dec 06, 2019 10:15 am

moab wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:29 am

Rereading this thread. It's quite interesting.

Jeepercreeper (Or maybe it was Rickoshea that posted them?)- I was looking at those pics. And wondering. Are PSA's AR10's DPMS style? I assume DPMS AR10's are DPMS style. On the cheap end which of those two would be a better rifle do you think? Assuming the PSA is DPMS style. And what is the next step up in an AR10 in DPMS style?

Anyone else feel free to chime in here. I'm interested in as many opinions as I can get. I've built AK's for the last 15 years. And completely ignored the AR platform since getting out of the Marine Corps.
IIRC there's really only about 5 [7] main mfr of lowers in the US, everyone else [distributors] either buys finished or 80% and finishes them from these 5 [7] mfr. This includes AR10 and AR15 lowers. These same companies make uppers. So you could buy a PSA or Spikes or other and they could all be originated from the same plant. There are markings that identify the plant on some, others are not marked.

So obviously there can be differences in quality and tolerances applied to lowers made in the same plant but finished by different sellers.
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