590 Shockwave question

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emclean
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Sun May 21, 2017 9:26 am

jor-el wrote:If they end up selling even a half million of these in the next 4-8 years, good luck trying to make that many owners give them up, let alone tax or register them nationwide. When every Tom, Dick and Harry has one in the trunk or next to the nightstand it will be real hard to make them disappear.
is that anything like how they cant make magazines over 10 rounds disappear in CA?
so they would not try it?

Why do people keep applying logic to laws?

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by jor-el » Sun May 21, 2017 5:33 pm

emclean wrote:
jor-el wrote:If they end up selling even a half million of these in the next 4-8 years, good luck trying to make that many owners give them up, let alone tax or register them nationwide. When every Tom, Dick and Harry has one in the trunk or next to the nightstand it will be real hard to make them disappear.
is that anything like how they cant make magazines over 10 rounds disappear in CA?
so they would not try it?

Why do people keep applying logic to laws?
Because in the end, it has to. That matter is being addressed. Granted it's the land of fruit and nuts.
Try to remember that the political clime now is not what it was May of 2016. They may be splitting Ninth Circuit COA.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by The Twizzler » Mon May 22, 2017 7:36 pm

So as I understand it the length of the shockwave is the same as an 18 inch pistol grip shotgun from end to end but the barrel of the shockwave is shorter, however the grip is longer to make up for this so the total length is still 26 inches. It was never made with a shoulder stock so it was not a converted short barrel shotgun. It was designed to be used 2 handed (that's really the only way to use it) so it's not a pistol. It's not rifled so it cant be considered a destructive device as it fires common ammunition in a smooth bore. Therefore the only category it can fall under is the generic firearm, that means it only need be 26 inches long.
I actually have no interest in the gun but I admire the way they found a loophole for it.

Note: The original Gyro Jet Mark 1 pistol and carbine were sold in 13mm and yet are also not considered a destructive device and need no special paperwork to own and use.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 22, 2017 8:50 pm

The Twizzler wrote: I actually have no interest in the gun but I admire the way they found a loophole for it.
I'd admire it a lot more if it were actually useful. A small shotgun has it's place. A KSG is the same length and worlds more useful.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Dogan » Tue May 23, 2017 4:15 am

Stercutus wrote:
The Twizzler wrote: I actually have no interest in the gun but I admire the way they found a loophole for it.
I'd admire it a lot more if it were actually useful. A small shotgun has it's place. A KSG is the same length and worlds more useful.
Call in Sir Mix-A-Lot cause these are gonna be big buts:

KSG's aren't nearly as reliable as the Mossberg 590 action (nor the competing Remington 870 action). Have Keltec remedied the reliability issues?
KSG's are, what, twice the price at MSRP of the the Shockwave?
KSG's have how much aftermarket support (yes I know dicking with a niche, loophole item like a Shockwave is a bad idea but bear with me) compared to the 590 and 870?

Don't get me wrong, this thing strikes me as a pure and simple range toy/middle finger to the NFA and nothing else, but comparing it to a KSG is kind of apples to oranges IMO.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by emclean » Tue May 23, 2017 7:05 am

The Twizzler wrote: It's not rifled so it cant be considered a destructive device as it fires common ammunition in a smooth bore.
there is nothing about a rifled barrel in the definitions of a destructive device.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by Stercutus » Tue May 23, 2017 8:18 am

Don't get me wrong, this thing strikes me as a pure and simple range toy/middle finger to the NFA and nothing else, but comparing it to a KSG is kind of apples to oranges IMO.
Sure. You don't often think of shotguns with a capacity over two rounds as being "short". That is kind of why I lumped it in there.

But I most often judge an item on purpose, utility and potential. The KSG is just an glorified toy at this point as well but it has a lot of potential. Done right it could make a good HD gun.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by 2now » Sat May 27, 2017 10:46 pm

If the way they are explaining the law is correct, and that pistol gripped smooth bore weapon needs to have a total length over 26” regardless of barrel length, then would a howdah type pistol, saw a 12 ga single shot or double barrel with pistol grip and a sig brace be OK?

My idea is that such a firearm as a survival gun would be relatively light, easy to break down, could use 12 ga inserts to allow other calibers and could still use all the 12 ga rounds that make it a good general use gun. The decrease in weight could help off set the weight of full size ammo.

Anyone trying to make these yet?
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by jor-el » Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:49 am

Anyone trying to make these yet?
As a matter of fact; they called it the Gatekeeper. MSRP $900. The Gatekeeper II is the Remington version, which Remington calls the TAC-14. http://www.asylumweaponryllc.com/

As I understand the interpretation of the ruling, IF I bought a Mossberg 500 Mariner JIC, which as it comes from the factory as a PGO, as such the weapon never had a conventional shoulder stock installed.
(Correction: PGO shotgun is still a shotgun because 18 inch barrel. Need a bare receiver that never had an 18 inch barrel or a shoulder stock installed)


This particular arm could be fitted with the Shockwave Raptor grip, the 14 inch barrel and mag tube assembly, and the resulting firearm would be legal and not invoke NFA rules.

Think I may wait for a Mariner (nickel plated) version before pulling the trigger.
It would help to have the factory letter with some sort of notarization as to its legality as Nassau and Suffolk County PD have made themselves aware of this arm.
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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by delarey » Sat Jun 10, 2017 12:29 pm

Hmmmm thinking a shockwave with a brace would be interesting! Still trying to find a reliable stubby light that replaces the mag tube cap...i think Steiner made one, but it is hellishly spendy.

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Re: 590 Shockwave question

Post by ROCK6 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 8:23 pm

Stercutus wrote: I'd admire it a lot more if it were actually useful. A small shotgun has it's place. A KSG is the same length and worlds more useful.
Define "useful". So, Mossberg separated me from my money. I like the idea and size. Sawed off/PGO shotguns have been around for close to two hundred years...so this isn't anything new, just legally easier to obtain. Now, as to potential, usefulness, after spending a few shooting sessions with it, I would now put it in the useful-niche category. I was really shocked at the range this can be effective at. I was getting pie-plate patterns (OO buck) out to 30 yards which was impressive. As to "aiming", it's much easier with this bird-head grip, but still takes considerable practice. As good as it seemed to pattern, my son found out how easy it is to miss an entire silhouette target from about 5 yards. It's not bad from the hip, but actually aimed, it is consistently accurate. I'm going to try it out with O Buck, 1-Buck and 4-Buck.

Is it useful? For a compact, short-range (inside 25 yards), I would say it's useful. The big "but" is that it takes some practice (about 50 rounds of birdshot) to really figure out the aiming to be consistent. Will this replace my regular 590 by the bed? Nope. Could it? Sure. It does (IMHO) need a light on the fore-end to be a true HD weapon. A laser is intriguing since the majority of shooting is more pointing than conventional aiming.

At the end of the day, it's a gun, it shoots. It's larger than a handgun with less capacity (except subcompacts and revolvers), and it's not as effective past 25-30 yards than a conventional shotgun. It's' a niche gun that would be a serviceable defensive tool from a vehicle or tight quarters; it could be a handy breaching tool with the right rounds in a more compact package than a regular shotgun and avoiding the NFA circus. So it can be useful and it does have potential (I would really rather, and plan, to have an SBS), but like any defensive firearm, it's going to take (likely more) practice. If it doesn't appeal to you or tickle your fancy, then I can see the questions about useful or potential. That's not a knock, it's simply a firearm that isn't for everybody and it's definitely a niche purpose.

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