The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by 0122358 » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:03 pm

My HD shotgun/handgun is a 230 dollar Maverick 88 and a 125 dollar Ruger KP91 .40 cal

I chose it in the event that I have to use them for self defense, it will sit in an evidence locker for 6-12 months as is standard proactive by our counties prosecutor which means it isn't too much of a loss and I can replace it easily enough.

That 1k AR or 1.5k Kimber/Sig/HK is great and would be my first choice but then you have a 1k AR 1.5K Kimber/Sig/HK not in your house anymore collecting grime and rust and fingerprints and if there is blood on it, it will sit there as evidence not begin cleaned.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Smash05 » Mon Feb 08, 2016 9:36 am

I owned a shotgun before I owned an AR. Consequently I've trained with it longer, and in times where I could have grabbed the AR, I reached for the shotgun out of confidence in my ability to use it. Last year I purchased an inexpensive Maverick 88 18.5 inch 12ga. I put a Choate Folding Stock on it, and have it stashed in a camera tripod bag, with about 75rds of assorted buckshot and some slugs. When my upstairs neighbors were out of town and I came home to find their door wide open, their preference was that I take a look myself instead of calling the police. I grabbed the Maverick, and headed upstairs. A quick search around found nothing out of order. That same Maverick goes with me camping, traveling, and just about any time I think a long gun is a good idea. It is low cap, follows all the rules anywhere I go type of gun - unlike my mossy 590, or my AR. So a decent basic shotgun fits my needs in a number of circumstances. I might suggest one to a fellow in similar circumstances to myself, but if Carbine and a decent handgun covers a person's bases, then a shotgun is just a want, not a need.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by BHP » Thu May 12, 2016 12:47 am

Neptune Glory wrote: The shotgun is loaded with alternating 00 buck / deer slug / 00 buck / deer slug / 00 buck. The idea is, this will be able to deal with either human aggressors or with an angry bear, equally well. Even if the human aggressor is wearing body armor, it should knock them down hard and stop the threat... or if the aggressive human is still trying to harm me, they'll be in a less advantaged position once they're flat on their back. The sidearm is always carried on me unless I'm sleeping. The rifle, well... it's not really appropriate for home defense, however it will be able to deal with anything up to and including a zombie apocalypse that might happen outside of the home (and I hope it never does).
Your whole premise here is suspect at best. There is ample evidence that argues against your line of thinking. Start with the old Second Chance survivors club shootings and you will see the truth. If you want to stop a committed person you need to do one hell of a lot more than just knock them down. Not that shooting an armored assailant is any sort of guarantee that you will knock them down.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by 111t » Thu May 12, 2016 7:32 am

I'm not really a big fan of mixing loads in the tube. I would guess that I would personally lose track of what was about to come out of the gun. Buckshot in the chamber and the tube and slugs on a sidesaddle.

It seems to me that if you find yourself staring down a shotgun or handgun barrel at someone in body armor... Presumably they've armed themselves as well... Your option is basically to shoot them where there is no armor. Less ideal but I guess that if the shooting is justified then 'knocking them down' doesnt seem like the way to go.

Just my .02$

Honestly though, in my area it's pretty far fetched that an intruder will be wearing body armor.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by KnifeStyle » Thu May 12, 2016 9:36 am

Just heard from my tactical guru who for a while was marketing a shotgun course, saying just grab any old pump action and they'll get you running with it. Reportedly, that project failed so horribly they're nixing the entire course selection. They ran a weekend deal where day one was shotgun, day two was knife. They had thirteen registrations for knife and one person for shotgun. He's a business man before all else, he may have just tried and whiffed a sales pitch for a new weapons niche. But it's interesting to see how the tactical mall ninja community is split against the older generation.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by bamboo spear » Sun Aug 07, 2016 3:58 pm

Unless you're expecting North Korean paratroopers or zombies, then a 5 shot pump-action 12 gauge should be more than sufficient for just home defense or critters. I know an AR is all the rage, but don't lie to yourself - if you want one, just get one. If you've got the bread, you don't have to create reasons, just buy it. But you don't need an AR or AK. That's doesn't mean you can't want one. I don't need another sword or knife, but I'm sure as hell gonna buy one lol.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Sun Aug 07, 2016 5:42 pm

I have owned 2 pump action shotguns. An 870 Express that failed to eject sometimes and a Chinese 12 gauge copy that always failed to eject. They were both heavy with the Pardner(Chinese) one being twice as heavy. The remmington was one produced when Freedom Group first bought out Remmington. I hear the older ones are much better. I also noticed I had a tendency to short stroke them. I keep a Cz-82 as my nightstand gun but if I need it I have a Spanish double barrel 20 ga with 2 triggers as a barricade option. I favor the reliability over the additional round count. Right now I have I have #3 buck for it.
The idea is aim the shotgun at the door to the bedroom and after 2 shots (or 1 shot of both barrels) ditch it and grab the CZ.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Sun Aug 07, 2016 6:43 pm

If you mean a closed door that would be a 3rd Rule violation but it's your life and homeowners insurance.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:23 pm

I said bedroom door and my bedroom is on the second story.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by flybynight » Sun Aug 07, 2016 7:24 pm

Stercutus wrote:If you mean a closed door that would be a 3rd Rule violation but it's your life and homeowners insurance.
Unless it's the North Korean paratrooping zombies. Then two and a pistol Mag may not be enough. :ohdear:
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:14 am

The Twizzler wrote:I said bedroom door and my bedroom is on the second story.
I figured as much; however that still doesn't change what I am saying.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:11 pm

I always keep that door open so identifying the target is no problem You come up the stairs and immediately turn left into my open door. You can't go any farther without walking in my doorway. What rule am I breaking?
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he drew his dagger...

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:20 pm

If I dive over my bed/ Dukes of Hazzard slide accross the top, tuck, roll I will be in my closet with about 5 other guns. This assumes I don't catch myself in the sheets and fall onto the floor all wrapped up and ready to be eaten.
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flybynight wrote:
Stercutus wrote:If you mean a closed door that would be a 3rd Rule violation but it's your life and homeowners insurance.
Unless it's the North Korean paratrooping zombies. Then two and a pistol Mag may not be enough. :ohdear:
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he drew his dagger...

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by flybynight » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:33 pm

The Twizzler wrote:If I dive over my bed/ Dukes of Hazzard slide accross the top, tuck, roll I will be in my closet with about 5 other guns. This assumes I don't catch myself in the sheets and fall onto the floor all wrapped up and ready to be eaten.
Image
GOOD
Image
BAD

flybynight wrote:
Stercutus wrote:If you mean a closed door that would be a 3rd Rule violation but it's your life and homeowners insurance.
Unless it's the North Korean paratrooping zombies. Then two and a pistol Mag may not be enough. :ohdear:
That's what I like about you Twizzler... Layer upon Layer upon Layer of preparedness. You're like an onion Spiderman. AND if you do get tangled up in the sheets, You'll be a seven layer burrito. So again layer upon layer upon layer.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Aug 08, 2016 6:51 pm

Gather Round Children I have a story:
So once when I was about 5 I lived in Gulfport, Mississippi and I was a huge fan of The Dukes of Hazzard. So I was sitting on the front porch doing nothing but catching flies and sweating ( this is what most kids do in the deep south cause its so hot and inside is for the adults!) When a nice shiny Porsche with NY tags comes by. It was plum colored but it was still a Porsche dammit.
At that time in my life I just assumed everyone who lived in NY was famous and lived in the Empire State building. They must a been lost because they came back and rolled down their window. I figure this is my only chance to make it big so as soon as they get the window rolled down I begin to build up speed. That's right I am gonna do the slide over the hood of my Daddy's car. Except my Daddy didn't have a car he had a truck and the hood was about 4 feet off the ground and I was about 5 feet tall. So as I am going full speed I leap into the air, yell Hey!Watch this! and turn sideways ( in preparation for the a fore mentioned slide) and slam right into the side of the truck. I woke up some time later. I always wondered what those Uppity New Yorkers thought about that. :lol:

Not to offend any uppity New Yorkers :D
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he drew his dagger...

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by flybynight » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:25 pm

The Twizzler wrote:Gather Round Children I have a story:
So once when I was about 5 I lived in Gulfport, Mississippi and I was a huge fan of The Dukes of Hazzard. So I was sitting on the front porch doing nothing but catching flies and sweating ( this is what most kids do in the deep south cause its so hot and inside is for the adults!) When a nice shiny Porsche with NY tags comes by. It was plum colored but it was still a Porsche dammit.
At that time in my life I just assumed everyone who lived in NY was famous and lived in the Empire State building. They must a been lost because they came back and rolled down their window. I figure this is my only chance to make it big so as soon as they get the window rolled down I begin to build up speed. That's right I am gonna do the slide over the hood of my Daddy's car. Except my Daddy didn't have a car he had a truck and the hood was about 4 feet off the ground and I was about 5 feet tall. So as I am going full speed I leap into the air, yell Hey!Watch this! and turn sideways ( in preparation for the a fore mentioned slide) and slam right into the side of the truck. I woke up some time later. I always wondered what those Uppity New Yorkers thought about that. :lol:

Not to offend any uppity New Yorkers :D
They said YOU HEAR THAT ???? BANJOS.... FLOOR IT FLOOT IT FLOOR IT
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by The Twizzler » Mon Aug 08, 2016 8:10 pm

You know I went to the University of TN at Knoxville and a lot a people know the melody of the school song Rocky Top because of the football team. But they don't know the words.About midway the lines accompanied by dueling banjos are ( Once two strangers climbed old Rocky Top lookin for a Moonshine stil, ain't no strangers found on Rocky Top. Reckon there never will.)
[/quote]

They said YOU HEAR THAT ???? BANJOS.... FLOOR IT FLOOT IT FLOOR IT[/quote]
"Oh Bother!" said Pooh, as he drew his dagger...

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by phydaux » Wed Aug 31, 2016 7:57 am

I am of the opinion that every adult needs to own five firearms:

A handgun that he carries at all times
A .22 for small game
A long barrel shotgun for fowl
A rifle for medium-size game
A self defense carbine

The thing, though, is single shotgun can fulfill all of the last three slots. Buy yourself a nice 28" 12 gauge Remington 870 Wingmaster and a box of birdshot. That's a high quality, long barrel fowling piece. Now guy an extra barrel, a 26" 12 gauge rifled barrel and a box of slugs. You can now used that shotgun for medium-size game. Then buy another barrel, a 18" smooth barrel and a box of 00. The shotgun can now function as a self defense carbine, although one with short range and limited magazine capacity.

Keep the short barrel on the shotgun and keep it next to your bed. Swap out the other barrels when you need to go hunting. Which, IMO, won't be often. The .22 is much more useful, again IMO, for finding food in a SHIF situation than a rifle or long barrel shotgun. Geese, ducks, deer, elf, whatever, can't always be found when your hungry. But North America isn't running out of squirrels any time soon.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Stercutus » Wed Aug 31, 2016 8:11 am

A 12" barrel would be more handy for SD/ HD purposes. An 18" barrel is... 18"... of course paying for the 12" barrel is a whole other story. You may as well buy a carbine where that is an option.

Shotguns have fallen by the wayside in the HD world but it is tough to miss with one inside 15 yards (HD ranges). You almost have to be doing everything wrong to miss.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by quazi » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:10 pm

It's been a long time since I patterned a shotgun with 00 buck. IIRC when I did it with my family's Maverick 88 with an 18.5" barrel at five yards the pattern was about as long as my thumb and a little wider (wad probably made it bigger than it really was). At ten yards it was about palm-sized and at fifteen yards it was about pie plate sized. At twenty-five yards some pellets were off the paper.

Now that I own my own shotgun and it currently hasn't been hijacked by another family member I really need to go out and pattern it with various loads. I've used slugs to verify the sights are on, but I haven't patterned it at all.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Close_enough » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:22 pm

quazi wrote:It's been a long time since I patterned a shotgun with 00 buck. IIRC when I did it with my family's Maverick 88 with an 18.5" barrel at five yards the pattern was about as long as my thumb and a little wider (wad probably made it bigger than it really was). At ten yards it was about palm-sized and at fifteen yards it was about pie plate sized. At twenty-five yards some pellets were off the paper.

Now that I own my own shotgun and it currently hasn't been hijacked by another family member I really need to go out and pattern it with various loads. I've used slugs to verify the sights are on, but I haven't patterned it at all.
Slightly tangent topic: For home defense, do you want the pattern to be as tight as possible to maximize damage to a single spot, or be as wide as the person to maximize the chances of hitting something vital? Assume a decent pattern density.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by 00dlez » Wed Aug 31, 2016 3:38 pm

Close_enough wrote: Slightly tangent topic: For home defense, do you want the pattern to be as tight as possible to maximize damage to a single spot, or be as wide as the person to maximize the chances of hitting something vital? Assume a decent pattern density.
As it states ad nauseum in the main shotgun thread that is stickied, having a shotgun doesn't mean you don't have to aim, and going for a wide spray (especially at indoor ranges) means stray rounds and that means potential innocent victims/damage. If your shots are not keeping all pellets on silhouette, you've likely chosen the wrong load for what you are doing.

That said, do you need to use flight control rounds at 10 yards? Probably not. But you should pattern your defensive ammo to be confident that good shots aren't going to leave a spray of lead careening through your drywall or out a window into the street.
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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by quazi » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:32 pm

Going on a further tangent, I know plenty of people who live way out in the sticks so far from other people that they could theoretically start firing wildly in every direction and the chances of them accidentally hitting a human are pretty close to zero.

I wonder if for people in those situations having buckshot with a little extra spread would be a good thing? The chances of needing to shoot at greater distances are also slightly higher, so maybe not. Of course, the great majority of defensive shootings out in the woods probably still happen at really close range so it probably doesn't matter.

My shotgun normally has slugs all the way down, as bears are a concern, but earlier this summer I took a shot with 00 buck at a fox over fifty yards away. I missed*. I really need to see what kind of patterns I'm getting at various distances with different loads.

This thread is about home defense in the suburbs, so I'm getting pretty far off-topic.

*Probably missed. A little bit of fur, but no blood and no dead fox anywhere nearby.

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Re: The Suburban Shotgun: Is it really needed?

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Wed Aug 31, 2016 4:58 pm

quazi wrote:Going on a further tangent, I know plenty of people who live way out in the sticks so far from other people that they could theoretically start firing wildly in every direction and the chances of them accidentally hitting a human are pretty close to zero.

I wonder if for people in those situations having buckshot with a little extra spread would be a good thing? The chances of needing to shoot at greater distances are also slightly higher, so maybe not. Of course, the great majority of defensive shootings out in the woods probably still happen at really close range so it probably doesn't matter.

My shotgun normally has slugs all the way down, as bears are a concern, but earlier this summer I took a shot with 00 buck at a fox over fifty yards away. I missed*. I really need to see what kind of patterns I'm getting at various distances with different loads.

This thread is about home defense in the suburbs, so I'm getting pretty far off-topic.

*Probably missed. A little bit of fur, but no blood and no dead fox anywhere nearby.
A wider spread might mean you get one pellet on it in a bad shot, but it might also mean a total miss or a complete vital miss on a good shot.

I'd rather put my money on making good hits than on spray-and-pray tactics.
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