M231 firing port weapon

Forum dedicated for rifles and shotguns from basic to tactical.

Moderator: ZS Global Moderators

User avatar
cone1995
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:34 am

M231 firing port weapon

Post by cone1995 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:47 am

Any one have some info about how to procure two of these bullet hose's??

User avatar
TDW586
* * * * *
Posts: 8844
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 8:03 pm
Location: Here, unless I'm not, in which case, somewhere else

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by TDW586 » Tue Apr 28, 2015 2:28 am

cone1995 wrote:Any one have some info about how to procure two of these bullet hose's??

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =478683304

Then put it on an appropriate lower. All NFA rules apply, this would be a short-barreled rifle if you put a stock on it. If you put it on a pistol lower without a stock, it would not fall under the NFA. For a pistol lower, see: http://www.spikestactical.com/pistol-55 ... 2aa2732491

Here are a few threads involving people who have purchased or built replicas:

http://3gn.ar15.com/archive/topic.html? ... 3&t=570227

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_123/4596 ... _____.html

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthrea ... apon-parts.

From what I understand, the original M231 was an open-bolt full auto; that's going to be much harder and likely impossible to do legally without a Class III FFL/SOT.
Image

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Wed Apr 29, 2015 9:32 am

Of course, the total lack of a front sight of any sort will make it tough to aim.

I was assigned to a Bradley unit (1-6 IN(M)) back in the 90s. Our tracks were M2A2s, which had the side-facing firing ports plated over (added armor), leaving just the ports in the ramp.

Our M231s only came out of the arms room rack to do inventory.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

User avatar
400 Grains
* * * * *
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 2010 11:30 pm

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by 400 Grains » Thu Apr 30, 2015 12:12 pm

Langenator wrote:Of course, the total lack of a front sight of any sort will make it tough to aim.

I was assigned to a Bradley unit (1-6 IN(M)) back in the 90s. Our tracks were M2A2s, which had the side-facing firing ports plated over (added armor), leaving just the ports in the ramp.

Our M231s only came out of the arms room rack to do inventory.
I always wondered how much use the M231's got.

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Thu Apr 30, 2015 1:45 pm

Honestly, I think the whole idea was a case of "the other guys have it" after the Soviets put firing ports in their BMP and BTR vehicles, without really stopping to think, "Does this even make sense? How useful would this even be?" (Nevermind that the Soviet version allowed firing by their normal AK rifles.) I have no idea if even the Soviets actually used them, at least by their tactical doctrine.

By American mech infantry doctrine, the infantry are supposed to dismount the vehicles from a covered, or at least concealed, position, so that they can make their final approach and assault, usually using a covered/concealed avenue of approach that was not accessible for vehicles, while the vehicles providing suppressing fire onto the objective. In this case, the firing ports have no use.

Really, the only uses I can see would be in two situations: 1) if you blundered into an enemy force, and didn't want to dismount the infantry while either plowing through the enemy, or breaking contact; or 2) if you've achieved a breakthrough of the enemy defense and are stomping around his rear areas, and what to just cause general mayhem and confusion, without stopping/slowing down to dismount the infantry. I both situations, the firing ports allow you to spray (and I use that word deliberately) light gunfire in more directions than just the turret alone can achieve, and who knows, you might hit something.

*I should add a third situation, which is if you want to stay buttoned up due to nuke/chem/bio environment.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

eeb
* * * *
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:25 pm

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by eeb » Sat May 02, 2015 4:47 am

Couple of threads about these in the Retro AR15/M16 section of AR15.com. They might be able to lead you in the correct direction, and the retro section is usually more civil than General Discussion.
"Illegal spying is not a crime. Well, it is, but fuck it."-NSA

User avatar
Kutter_0311
* * * * *
Posts: 6135
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 4:44 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: too many to get into...
Location: Frozen Tundra, WI

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Kutter_0311 » Sat May 02, 2015 6:55 pm

*I should add a third situation, which is if you want to stay buttoned up due to nuke/chem/bio environment.
Remember, this was a huge concern at the time. Why do you think our canteens have gas mask drink tube ports? Why do you think we have such advanced NBC gear & training?

Only after the Cold War ended did we rethink and plate-over firing ports.
JAYNE COBB wrote: Well, what you plan and what takes place ain't ever exactly been similar.
TravisM.1 wrote:If a rifle is an option, a rifle is usually the answer.
minengr wrote:I've said it numerous times, a quality rig is only as good as it's weakest link. Which usually is the nut behind the butt.

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 14251
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Stercutus » Mon May 04, 2015 5:37 am

Putting holes in the side of an armored vehicle turned out to be a stupid idea.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Mon May 04, 2015 8:42 am

Kutter_0311 wrote:
*I should add a third situation, which is if you want to stay buttoned up due to nuke/chem/bio environment.
Remember, this was a huge concern at the time. Why do you think our canteens have gas mask drink tube ports? Why do you think we have such advanced NBC gear & training?

Only after the Cold War ended did we rethink and plate-over firing ports.
Actually, the M2A2 (the first variant with the side ports plated over) was introduced in 1988. I'm pretty sure the ones my company had were some of the first ones fielded; in places with heavy wear, you could see the paint layers - the original 3-color NATO, desert tan over that from ODS, then back to the 3-color NATO scheme again.

I remember well spending the whole time in the box at CMTC in MOPP II. Using the M231 through the firing port would have been innaccurate enough trying to guide rounds on target through a periscope. Now try to do it with a pro-mask on. Add an order of magnitude of difficulty if the vehicle is moving - the Brad is NOT a smooth ride.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

gun toting monkeyboy
* * * *
Posts: 885
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Tue May 05, 2015 3:30 pm

Didn't those things fire from an open bolt, and have some ungodly rate of fire? I mean, I can see some use for them in an urban environment. Especially if you are thinking of something along the lines of driving through streets where you might have to deal with attackers coming at you out of buildings or something. But other than that, I am not seeing these being popular for anything other than spraying an area blindly.

-Mb

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Wed May 06, 2015 9:29 am

Under normal urban tactical doctrine, there wouldn't be anyone in the back of the Bradley to use the FPWs - they'd already be dismounted to clear buildings.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 14251
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Stercutus » Wed May 06, 2015 3:40 pm

Langenator wrote:Under normal urban tactical doctrine, there wouldn't be anyone in the back of the Bradley to use the FPWs - they'd already be dismounted to clear buildings.
Ah, that is because you aren't supposed to fight a war inside a city unless you have no choice because it is stupid (and possibly in violation of various treaty agreements). Back in the day (up to around 1999) we trained for the Red Horde pouring through the Fulda Gap in farms, woods and open country. There were damn few buildings to clear. Most of the large training centers did not even have MOUT sites (or large ones) until after 2001, really 2004.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
crypto
ZS Donor
ZS Donor
Posts: 16637
Joined: Sun Oct 08, 2006 7:37 pm
Location: City of Saint Louis

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by crypto » Wed May 06, 2015 4:38 pm

Langenator wrote:
*I should add a third situation, which is if you want to stay buttoned up due to nuke/chem/bio environment.
The original version through the A2 didnt have a full NBC environment, just a filtered air system for the driver, commander and gunner, to the best of my knoweldge. All the dismounts in the back were supposed to just use their MOPP suits.

Even after the A2 covered up the ports with the armor kit, they still had to use indivdual NBC gear in back.

I dont think the M2 got a whole-vehicle positive-pressure NBC system until the A3 model.


If any of that is incorrect, I hope someone will help me out, but thats all out of Jane's.
MF'N TEAM LEADER

"Some people think that the best way to stop the leopard is to cut the horns off the gazelle. This, my friends, is insane."

Image
Image

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Thu May 07, 2015 12:43 pm

Stercutus wrote:
Langenator wrote:Under normal urban tactical doctrine, there wouldn't be anyone in the back of the Bradley to use the FPWs - they'd already be dismounted to clear buildings.
Ah, that is because you aren't supposed to fight a war inside a city unless you have no choice because it is stupid (and possibly in violation of various treaty agreements). Back in the day (up to around 1999) we trained for the Red Horde pouring through the Fulda Gap in farms, woods and open country. There were damn few buildings to clear. Most of the large training centers did not even have MOUT sites (or large ones) until after 2001, really 2004.
No, more because you only send armored vehicles without infantry into cities (or other restrictive terrain) without accompanying infantry if you want them destroyed. Restrictive terrain (cities, jungles, mountains) reduces or negates some of armored vehicles' big advantages - mobility and long-ranged weapons - while offering lots of cover and advantageous positions to hostile infantry.

The job of your infantry is to clear the hostile infantry out. Armor (tanks, IFVs) provides fire support.

And I don't know if the A3 Brandley's had an overpressure system. I know the A2 didn't. But even though the vehicle had a filter system, as a crew we generally just used regular masks, fitted with microphones for the crew intercom. Being tied to a hose attached to the vehicle was a PITA.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

gun toting monkeyboy
* * * *
Posts: 885
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Thu May 07, 2015 4:10 pm

What is supposed to happen under the doctrine and what actually happens may not always be the same thing. And with the move towards more asymmetrical warfare, and fighting insurgents more than a modern army, having something that can cover those firing arcs that any turret/externally mounted weapons system can't cover might make sense. I am not saying it is ideal. But it might be worth keeping around for emergencies. Besides, it gives people an extra toy to play with. ;)

-Mb

User avatar
Stercutus
* * * * *
Posts: 14251
Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Safe On Base

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Stercutus » Thu May 07, 2015 7:27 pm

crypto wrote:
Langenator wrote:
*I should add a third situation, which is if you want to stay buttoned up due to nuke/chem/bio environment.
The original version through the A2 didnt have a full NBC environment, just a filtered air system for the driver, commander and gunner, to the best of my knoweldge. All the dismounts in the back were supposed to just use their MOPP suits.

Even after the A2 covered up the ports with the armor kit, they still had to use indivdual NBC gear in back.

I dont think the M2 got a whole-vehicle positive-pressure NBC system until the A3 model.


If any of that is incorrect, I hope someone will help me out, but thats all out of Jane's.
That is pretty much spot on. The reason they did not bother with the back area was because the crunchies were supposed to dismount (chemical environment or not) and take the objective. They would have to be all kitted out anyway.
You go 'round and around it
You go over and under
I go through

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Fri May 08, 2015 8:03 am

gun toting monkeyboy wrote:What is supposed to happen under the doctrine and what actually happens may not always be the same thing. And with the move towards more asymmetrical warfare, and fighting insurgents more than a modern army, having something that can cover those firing arcs that any turret/externally mounted weapons system can't cover might make sense. I am not saying it is ideal. But it might be worth keeping around for emergencies. Besides, it gives people an extra toy to play with. ;)

-Mb
Honestly, you can cover those arcs far, far better in that type situation by opening up the missile loading hatch over the troop compartment and having a couple of guys stick their heads out. The view through the periscopes in the troop compartment is extremely limited.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

Trebor
* * * * *
Posts: 4449
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2006 12:14 am

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Trebor » Mon Jun 08, 2015 12:17 am

Old thread, I know, but i thought I'd chime in.

I did an article on "Oddball M-16 Variants" a year or so ago and included the M231 FPW in the round up so i did a bunch of research on it.

The 231 fires from an open bolt, straight blowback, full-auto only. They don't have sights: There is no provision for mounting a front sight due to their use as a FPW (makes it harder to stick the barrel through the collar for the port) and the uppers are a completely different forging from standard M16's so there is no provision for a rear sight either.

They originally had wire stocks designed for dismounted use and these appear in at least some manuals for the weapon. My understanding is these were never issued, and probably never even manufactured aside from some prototypes. It was just decided that it would be impractical to use these dismounted.

The weird thing is, the 231 actually probably saw more dismounted use than mounted use. Since they were in the TO&E for various armored units, and were available, they were used in Iraq during the time where there was a shortage of carbines for armor crews doing dismounted ops. You can Google up photos of them in the turrets of Humvees as an extra weapon/personal weapon for the MG gunner. I've also seen a couple photos of what I presume are armor/mech troops using them dismounted outside the vehicle. No stocks, no sights, full auto only at a very high ROF. You gotta be desperate to use them this way...
Image
----
R.I.P HK33K - Gone, but not forgetten.

gun toting monkeyboy
* * * *
Posts: 885
Joined: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:53 pm

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by gun toting monkeyboy » Mon Jun 08, 2015 6:53 pm

Here is video of one being fired. The video is only 5 seconds long, but since it only appears to take about a second and a half to do the magazine dump, that is plenty. I couldn't afford to feed one...

-Mb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hjVE6bocSNk

maxisback
Posts: 16
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2012 11:34 pm
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days later, Dawn of the Dead, Shawn of the Dead
Location: W WA

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by maxisback » Mon Jun 08, 2015 8:27 pm

Langenator wrote:
gun toting monkeyboy wrote:What is supposed to happen under the doctrine and what actually happens may not always be the same thing. And with the move towards more asymmetrical warfare, and fighting insurgents more than a modern army, having something that can cover those firing arcs that any turret/externally mounted weapons system can't cover might make sense. I am not saying it is ideal. But it might be worth keeping around for emergencies. Besides, it gives people an extra toy to play with. ;)

-Mb
Honestly, you can cover those arcs far, far better in that type situation by opening up the missile loading hatch over the troop compartment and having a couple of guys stick their heads out. The view through the periscopes in the troop compartment is extremely limited.

Downside of THAT idea is that the turret drive is disengaged when the hatch opens. A safety feature. :x I talked to a guy that was in Desert Storm, and he says they used them for trench clearing. With a cyclic rate DOUBLE that of the M16, it was hell on wheels...

The FPWs my outfit had did indeed have the wire stocks; always reminded me of the M3 Grease gun. Honestly though, unless a red dot site and maybe an IR laser were mounted and boresighted, I don't see them as anything but an ammo burner
Who Dares, Wins

zoiders
* * * *
Posts: 996
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:36 am

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by zoiders » Fri Jun 12, 2015 4:32 am

The Soviets went with firing ports more because they fully intended to use them in an internal security role as in putting down civilian protests much like the Chinese did at Tienanmen Square, South African wheeled AFV's had firing ports for the same reason. In that scenario the vehicles are mostly deployed against unarmed people.

For actual use as an AFV in the genuine infantry support role firing ports are pretty dumbass.

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Fri Jun 12, 2015 7:40 am

And some schmuck in the Bradley program decided that since the Russians had them, the Bradley needed them.

I'm pretty sure the Marder, Warrior, AMX-10, etc are without.

And I need to watch Pentagon Wars again.
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

User avatar
Boondock
ZS Member
ZS Member
Posts: 2691
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2012 6:37 pm
Location: Chicagoland

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Boondock » Fri Jun 12, 2015 8:27 pm

Langenator wrote:I was assigned to a Bradley unit (1-6 IN(M)) back in the 90s.
"Regulars by God!" (but not by choice :wink: ) Nice to see someone else from the old sixth. I was with 4-6 IN (M) from 89-91.

User avatar
Langenator
* * *
Posts: 719
Joined: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:20 am
Favorite Zombie Movies: 28 Days Later, Zombieland, Shaun of the Dead (and Larry Correia's Monster Hunter series if they ever make them into movies)
Location: Aggieland, TX

Re: M231 firing port weapon

Post by Langenator » Fri Jun 12, 2015 9:16 pm

Only regiment in the U.S. Army to invade Canada once and Mexico twice. :awesome:
Fortunis Fortus Paratus

Post Reply

Return to “Longarms - Shotguns and Rifles”